Curse

Sinful Doom · Jan 11, 2007, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Back when Inspiration got nerfed there was a discussion on the Team Quitter [QQ] forums about PnH. I'll take the quote Tommy, one of QQ's monk's, wrote. "And amen to the PnH comment. Complete [email protected] even if it were a signet with the cast time of a shout and no recharge."

@=i

I totally agree with others that this skill will be of no use until it is +2 energy regen. Let's not forget that currently Peace and Harmony ends if that ally casts a spell that targets a foe or deals damage to a foe. That pretty much limit's its use to monks, ranger trappers and ritualist spirit spammers.

HolyHawk · Jan 11, 2007, 02:02 PM // 14:02

These are what I think monks should have:

- Aura of Faith: 10 sec recharge
- Divine Healing / Heaven's Delight: 5 energy (it's divine favor, and no one uses anyway)
- Divine Intervention: 25 sec recharge
- Divine Spirit: Last 1...15sec, recharge 45 sec
- P&H: 2 energy regen
- Release Enchantments - 5...37 health
- Scribes Insight: 5 energy regain
- Unyielding Aura: is there a use for this?
- Withdraw Hexes: adjacent, 15...2 seconds
- Dwayna's Sorrow: 5...73 health uppon death
- Healer's Covenant: 15% reduction, 1...4 less energy
- Healing Burst: nearby; 5 recharge
- Healing light: 3 recharge
- Restfull Breeze: 5...17 seconds, recharge 10 sec
- Signet of Rejuvenation: swap values, heals for 15...63, aditional 5...49
- Supportive Spirit: _whenever_ knocked down
- Amity: 30 sec recharge
- Pacifism: 25 sec recharge
- Reverse Hex: 1 sec casting time
- Life Sheath: 4 sec recharge
- M. of Protection: 30 sec recharge
- Shield of Deflection: 1/4 casting
- Shield of Regeneration: 5 energy, 4...10 health regen
- Shielding Hands: 20 sec recharge
- Balthazar's Pendulum: _whenever_ would be knocked down
- Judge's Intervention: 20 sec recharge
- Ray of Judgement: 20 sec recharge
- Reversal of Damage: 6 sec recharge
- Deny Hexes: each recharging monk skill
- Light of Dwayna: 15 energy
- Vengeance: 45 sec recharge

Thomas.knbk · Jan 11, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

These are what I think monks should have:

- Aura of Faith: 10 sec recharge

Exactly. I used this elite a few times, and I kept thinking how nice it would be if you could keep it on your entire team. (was in HA)

Quote:

- Divine Healing / Heaven's Delight: 5 energy (it's divine favor, and no one uses anyway)

I'd rather see this on 10 energy and a 10 sec recharge. The cast time will keep it from being overpowered.

Quote:

- Divine Intervention: 25 sec recharge

I'd say 15 so you can save spikes with it on a semi-regular basis.

Quote:

- P&H: 2 energy regen

PnH is a tough one.
In the current meta this would not be a problem at all, but I don't know how I'd like to see two monks with PnH on them, which they get from a midliner (36sec PnH at 0 divine with 20% enchant mod vs. a 10 sec recharge), GoLE and on top of that a monk elite once Grenth is nerfed.

Quote:

- Release Enchantments - 5...37 health

Too conditional, no matter what.

Quote:

- Withdraw Hexes: adjacent, 15...2 seconds

Buff the recharge yes. There's no point in using this over Divert, or even Convert.

Quote:

- Dwayna's Sorrow: 5...73 health uppon death

You would still prefer to save the ally and not heal the party over letting him die for a partywide heal.

Quote:

- Healer's Covenant: 15% reduction, 1...4 less energy

Just 1-4 could do it I think.

Quote:

- Healing Burst: nearby; 5 recharge

It's still an elite Healing Touch. Nothing to be exited about.

Quote:

- Supportive Spirit: _whenever_ knocked down

it_IS_whenever.

Quote:

- Amity: 30 sec recharge

20. It's an elite.

Quote:

- Life Sheath: 4 sec recharge

This I would like to see at 6 recharge and 3/4 cast. I think that would be quite powerful.

Quote:

- M. of Protection: 30 sec recharge

+remove disable please

Quote:

- Shield of Deflection: 1/4 casting

Agreed

Quote:

- Shield of Regeneration: 5 energy, 4...10 health regen

Agreed

Quote:

- Shielding Hands: 20 sec recharge

Agreed

Quote:

- Balthazar's Pendulum: _whenever_ would be knocked down

Agreed.

Quote:

- Judge's Intervention: 20 sec recharge

If someone receives dmg that would be fatal, that means he's already at low health. Doing dmg is not your priority at that moment. I don't know why they made this skill tbh. Sure, the dmg is negated, but that still leaves him at low health.

Quote:

- Reversal of Damage: 6 sec recharge

You really need to watch out with overbuffing this one. 6s is good I think

Quote:

- Deny Hexes: each recharging monk skill

Too powerful. It would remove 2-3+hexes every time, for 5 energy with 12s recharge.

Quote:

- Light of Dwayna: 15 energy

I'd rather see the '25% health and 0 energy'-part buffed tbh.

Quote:

- Vengeance: 45 sec recharge

Agreed.

HolyHawk · Jan 11, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Some of the sugestions I made are not exactly for monks, I just could picture other situations where they would be a fine skill, without being too powerfull. I'm not sure on divine intervention at 15 seconds recharge, it would be too viable I suppose.

Judge's Intervention on the other hand might serve as a counter spike; suppose some warrior charge's frenzied at you. He would recieve 280 dmg back if the skill triggered, and if the team coordinated their spike at the moment, they would just kill back instead. That's one use I can imagine of.

Deny hexes is too troublesome. Monk bars do not have too long recharging skills, and signet of devotion is rather fast to recharge. However you do find stuff like dark escape, glyphs, hex breaker and so on; supposing that the monk would have most of his skills recharged, the number of hexes removed would be 2, 3 at max. They wouldn't cast a lot os spells to waste energy and be able to remove lots of hexes without some synergy, and limiting it to monk skills can make it more balanced. But again, the skill makes little sense, it's linked to no attribute but tied to divine favor on the condition.

The dmg from reversal of dmg is ok I believe. There are weapon of remedy and vengeful weapon as well, they recharge faster, so I assume it wouldn't be too powerfull, but you are right, need to be careful on this one.

Forgot to complement supportive spirit, raise the amount healed to the orison amount. It's not something that would be on the monk bar, probably in someone else with /mo.

suiraCLAW · Jan 11, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

- Amity: 30 sec recharge

Not good enough IMHO. What about a total rework (what's a disabling hex doing in Protection Prayer anyway) ?

Amity: 10E/0.25/4. Elite skill. for 2...3 seconds, all nearby foes can't attack. If a adjacent foe was attacking, all his attack skills are disabled (= adrenal reset) for 2...6 seconds. All of your non-monk skills are disabled for 10 seconds.

In other words: change it into a decent 'anti adrenal spike skill'. The downsides should keep it away from mesmers using this skill.

Something similar could be done with pacifism too.

Patccmoi · Jan 11, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

I honestly can't see PnH balanced at 2 pips of regen. Seriously imagine 1 Smite Monk + 2 Monks backline and give Smite Monk PnH for elite. It's easy to have PnH on the 3 monks and you're basically having 2 monks at 6 pips of regen not even using a skill slot for it and the other one STILL having a decent elite on his back.

You must always consider PnH balance on the fact that it's likely to be maintained on 2-3 people (otherwise you're just stupid to bring it. If all you want is self-emanagement, there's better options and they SHOULD be better). Most elite emanagement give ~3 pips of energy regen. Well... PnH on 3 people is 3 pips of energy regen. The difference is that you're spreading it so other monks can use another elite AND benefit from small emanagement bonus (and it's not THAT small, it's still 25% more energy).

Comparing PnH with something like ZB, Divert, BLight kinda makes no sense to me because it's comparing apples and oranges. PnH has to be thought as a team skill. I actually remember obsing QQ lose to a guild running PnH when they were running massive edenial (2 Fear Me! + 2 ESurges) because they had a smite monk + 2 monks in PnH and it countered the edenial very well.

For Dwayna's Sorrow, i agree with the buff i think but don't forget something : it's usable on minions.

We ran before a N/Mo Jagged Bomber with Dwayna's Sorrow. Whenever we needed party heal, he'd Dwayna's on the minions before doing Taste/Putrid and it's a small heal party. It's not reliable enough to fully replace a heal party, but if you raise the healing too much on it a MM could do pretty huge party heal really easily.

HolyHawk · Jan 11, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

That was the idea for dwaynas sorrow hehe; it's not a skill supposed to be used on a ally, because you want your ally to be alive; minions however could be the martyrs. It's a big chain also, jagged + death nova + dwaynas sorrow + putrid flesh/taste of death, I guess it could work as an option to hp bots.

kvndoom · Jan 14, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Maybe improve Monk signets a bit, since non-elite e-management pretty much sucks right now

Signet of Devotion- 1c 5r. All the buff it needs.

Signet of Rejuvenation- reverse the amount of primary healing and conditional healing. You hardly ever see this used because the self-heal amount is just too low.

and let's fix some Monk obsElites---

Healing Light- award energy bonus if target is attacking or using a spell. Enchants are very risky with Grenth running around, so you can't rely on your elite e-management to be that conditional. I never see this spell getting used in arenas or GVG, but it could be very versatile if the energy gain condition was more attractive.

Healing Burst- lower Recharge to 7s (may even need 5s due to the need to ball up to make it effective), make energy loss scale from [email protected] to [email protected] to [email protected]

Word of Healing- increase recharge to 5s, make it target ally. Allow this to be on par with ZB for those who want to spec in healing rather than prot.

Martyr- 10e, 5r. Burning and blinding are so easily applied right now that this spell has become obsElite with 10r. Don't make it map-wide though... maybe earshot or compass range? That'll keep flaggers from abusing it.

Emphatic Removal- either 7s recharge, or 10e + 5r. Would be a good BLight for non-monks, but the recharge kills it.

Light of Deliverance- get rid of the 80% condition. Anet finally makes a Heal Party that Monks can afford to use, then they go and make it elite AND put a stupid conditional tag on it. Hell, why don't they just move Heal Party to Energy Storage and be done with it already!

Blessed Light- mixed emotions about this one. Probably the best Monk elite currently, and really fine like it is, but 5e + 7r would be cool too. Less energy, but a little bit longer between casts. They could leave it as is and it would still be an awesome skill though.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 14, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Maybe improve Monk signets a bit, since non-elite e-management pretty much sucks right now

Signet of Devotion- 1c 5r. All the buff it needs.

Signet of Devotion is already one of the best monk skills in the game. This would make it way overpowered.

Quote:

Healing Light- award energy bonus if target is attacking or using a spell. Enchants are very risky with Grenth running around, so you can't rely on your elite e-management to be that conditional. I never see this spell getting used in arenas or GVG, but it could be very versatile if the energy gain condition was more attractive.

You hardly ever see this elite because it only heals for significant amounts with very high healing prayers, and healing prayers suck.

Quote:

Word of Healing- increase recharge to 5s, make it target ally. Allow this to be on par with ZB for those who want to spec in healing rather than prot.

agreed, and swap the values please. 104 unconditional is very reasonable for a healing elite imo.

Quote:

Light of Deliverance- get rid of the 80% condition. Anet finally makes a Heal Party that Monks can afford to use, then they go and make it elite AND put a stupid conditional tag on it. Hell, why don't they just move Heal Party to Energy Storage and be done with it already!

a party wide 75 heal is very powerful. The condition isn't that bad imo. It means you'll hardly ever hit more than 2-3 people with it, but that's ok for 5 energy.

Quote:

Blessed Light- mixed emotions about this one. Probably the best Monk elite currently, and really fine like it is, but 5e + 7r would be cool too. Less energy, but a little bit longer between casts. They could leave it as is and it would still be an awesome skill though.

are you kidding? BL is good because if all the effects apply it is extremely energy-friendly as well as time-friendly. 5e is way too powerful.

kvndoom · Jan 14, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Yeah, Healing sucks. That's one of the reasons for some of the proposed buffs. Right now Protection does better at healing than Healing, which is kinda awkward. I just pick at Heal Party because it's more an Ele spell than a Monk spell.

BLight definitely needs no buff, I was halfhearted about that. Big heal + hex removal + condition removal + usable on self makes it really damn good.

[joking] Heal Party- 15/2/2, att Energy Storage- Heal entire party for 1...2 health for each point of energy you have.

Phades · Jan 14, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

I have been thinking about other "less popular" ele skills and since many of the air skills can't really do much more damage than they already do, i figured trying to slide in more "disruptive" utility is really the only option left. Going with the established knock down theme that already exists, seems like the best answer, but a possibly less potent option is required if to be widely spread giving the skill line a nudge. So, rather than creating a lot of non-exhaustion based k/d effects, i figured going with a short term conditional blackout would be a better route to take. The idea would be along the lines of inabilty to act, due to electrocution.

For the following skills:
Arc Lightning
Envenerating Charge
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Javelin
Lightning Strike
Lightning Touch
Ride the lightning

I would propose adding this line of text.
If target foe is struck for more than 40 damage, that foe suffers from blackout for 1s.

This simulates having a high skill requirement while also still being somewhat conditional and being mitigated by prot skills and high armor level, but still potentially being more useful in general harrasment.

I was also considering [skill=Shock Arrow]Shock Arrow[/skill] for this buff, but it could possibly be overpowered due to the low recharge the skill possesses despite the low damage potential. Lightning Javelin is on a fast recharge as well and its damage is better, so it might need to be removed from the list as well.

For Lightning Hammer and Lightning Orb, getting similar treatment to stay inline with the smaller nukes.
If target foe is struck for more than 80 damage, that foe suffers from blackout for 1s.

It wont slip under prot spirit, but they will get past shield of absorption. I was considering Chain lightning and invoke lightning for this, but having this be aoe as well might be a bit too much if chain cast between more than one person and slightly spaced apart.

One other change that could be useful.

Conjure lightning 5e .25s 20r (fire/frost)
For 60 seconds if you are weilding a lightning weapon, your attacks deal 1..17..22 additional damage and you gain 1 energy.

Energy, cast time, and recharge changed to make it more flexable, while allowing elemental attackers to simulate a zealous weapon mod. I know wanding stuff isn't all that hot, but if it were also energy management, then it might not be as bad while waiting out recharge times or exhaustion periods.

Changes for the earth line would need to be done on a more individual basis.

Ash blast 10e .75s 7r
Target foe and all nearby foes are struck for 20...48...57 damage. If ash blast strikes a knocked down foe, that foe suffers from blindness and weakness for 3..13..16 seconds.

Thoughts behind this change are to allow for more synergy with the earth based skills.

Dragon stomp/Earth quake 25e 2s 15r
Shorten cast time to improve functionality.

Ebon Hawk 10e 1s 5r
Shorten cast time to improve functionality.

Eruption 15e 2s 20r
For 1...5...7 seconds, nearby foes are struck for 5...28...36 earth damage and blinded for 3...9...10 seconds.

Improve efficiency by energy cost reduction and functionality with recharge reduction and application to more closely resemble dust trap when triggered.

Glowstone 5e 1s 5r
If the target is suffering from weakness or blindness you gain 1...7...10 energy.

Altered recharge to match glowing gaze and added blindness for more cross spec applications.

Grasping earth 15e 1s 12r
Target foe and all nearby foes are hexed with Grasping earth. For 8..18..21 seconds any hexed foe moves 50% slower, but has +24 armor against physical damage. For every second spent moving, that foe takes 5..17..21 damage earth damage.

There is no sense in having this skill be required to be a PBAOE, if its giving a benefit instead of damage to the target and not be a 66% snare like frozen burst. Furthermore, being a hex, and having it removable instead of a ward, which has a larger area and cant be removed.

Magnetic Aura 10e .25s 30r
For 5..17..21 seconds, adjacent allies have a 75% chance to "block" melee attacks.

Changes made to have the spell more closely resemble the unremoveable Protector's defense. It still does not have a 100% uptime with a 20% mod and a smaller area effect than ward vs melee.

Shockwave 10e .75s 10r
I do not see a reason why it requires to be on a slower recyle than aftershock. It is eliete and unconditional, but does less damage in a wider area.

Stone daggers
If both daggers hit, that foe suffers from weakness for 1..2..3 seconds.

Still weak, but could be used as temporary melee hate.

Stone sheath 10e 1s 15r
For 10..30..37 seconds, attacks made by target foe and all nearby foes deal earth damage, attack 25% slower, and can not cause a critical hit.

If their weapons are toting a bunch of rock stuck to them, I would figure it would make sense to attack a little slower. It doesnt last as long or is as strong as shadow of fear, but it could add some depth into earth.

Stone striker 5e .25s 10r
Whenever you deal earth damage, you gain 1 energy.

With the abscence of a conjure within this line, the addition of a different way to gain energy could be considered useful.

Stoning 10e 1s 5r

Stoning doesn't need to be as much of a energy pig as it is.

Water is going to be more difficult and ill do it in another post.

kvndoom · Jan 14, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Making Eruption trigger blindness on each pulse would be way too overpowered. Dust Trap being easily interrupted offsets its power. Perhaps auto-blind all nearby foes immediately, then do the damage per second. Would certainly make it useful outside of PVE.

All Conjures, and not just Air, would have to give energy if that idea were implemented. And it's probably not too great an idea when you think of casters wanding for extra damage AND getting free energy from doing so. Casters already rule the current meta as it is, I'd rather not see Wandspike on top of all the other craziness.

I doubt we'll see many (or any) more full-bar disabling skills, considering the numerous nerfs to Blackout already.

gasmaskman · Jan 15, 2007, 12:02 AM // 00:02

About the Conjures, giving +energy back would allow people to use that without have any points into the elements and getting insane amounts of energy, as in a melee character.

Symbol · Jan 15, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Wanding sucks, you never want to be wanding when you could be casting. If you're getting significant extra damage from wanding it's a sign that your build is not efficient, since you have long periods of downtime.

The proposed changes to conjure would make it a bit nuts though, it's already potentially quite good on a physical-getting a penalty free zealous on top of a healthy chunk of damage would be...potent.

Having air inflict "mini-blackouts" seem difficult to balance-either it's a barely noticeable annoyance or it's a complete lockdown depending on if you can keep the spam going. My approach is a little simpler, air should be about moderate damage inflicted very quickly combined with the usual utility (speedboosts, KD, blind).

The bread and butter skills:
[skill=Lightning Strike]Lightning Strike[/skill]
5E, 1s, 2r
Same damage as before.
[skill=Lightning Javelin]Lightning Javelin[/skill]
5E, .75s, 2r
If it hits you strike for 15..51...63 damage and you interrupt attacking foes. This spell has 25% armor penetration.
[skill=Lightning Orb]Lightning Orb[/skill]
Same stats, but up projectile speed by 50% so it doesn't miss as often.
[skill=Arc Lightning]Arc Lightning[/skill]
5E, 1s, 5R
Same damage as before
[skill=Lightning Bolt]Lightning Bolt[/skill]
5E, 1s, 5R
Same damage as before
[skill=Enervating Charge]Enervating Charge[/skill]
5E, 1s, 5R
Same damage and weakness duration as before
[skill=Shock Arrow]Shock Arrow[/skill]
5E, .75s
Same damage as before.

The above should span a decent matrix. Generally I tried to balance reliability, damage, and cost. Skills that are instant hit generally are slower or offer less damage potential than projectiles, and the projectiles themselves are balanced according to how accurate they are. Lightning javelin, for example, offers quite a bit of damage and an interrupt, but is painfully easy to dodge to compensate. Shock arrow is basically a flare that doesn't suck too badly. Orb is orb, but for 15E it should hit more often.

I'm not sure what to do with the elites though. I'll have to think about that some more.

Patccmoi · Jan 15, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I have been thinking about other "less popular" ele skills and since many of the air skills can't really do much more damage than they already do, i figured trying to slide in more "disruptive" utility is really the only option left. Going with the established knock down theme that already exists, seems like the best answer, but a possibly less potent option is required if to be widely spread giving the skill line a nudge. So, rather than creating a lot of non-exhaustion based k/d effects, i figured going with a short term conditional blackout would be a better route to take. The idea would be along the lines of inabilty to act, due to electrocution.

For the following skills:
Arc Lightning
Envenerating Charge
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Javelin
Lightning Strike
Lightning Touch
Ride the lightning

I would propose adding this line of text.
If target foe is struck for more than 40 damage, that foe suffers from blackout for 1s.

This simulates having a high skill requirement while also still being somewhat conditional and being mitigated by prot skills and high armor level, but still potentially being more useful in general harrasment.

I was also considering [skill=Shock Arrow]Shock Arrow[/skill] for this buff, but it could possibly be overpowered due to the low recharge the skill possesses despite the low damage potential. Lightning Javelin is on a fast recharge as well and its damage is better, so it might need to be removed from the list as well.

For Lightning Hammer and Lightning Orb, getting similar treatment to stay inline with the smaller nukes.
If target foe is struck for more than 80 damage, that foe suffers from blackout for 1s.

It wont slip under prot spirit, but they will get past shield of absorption. I was considering Chain lightning and invoke lightning for this, but having this be aoe as well might be a bit too much if chain cast between more than one person and slightly spaced apart.

One other change that could be useful.

Conjure lightning 5e .25s 20r (fire/frost)
For 60 seconds if you are weilding a lightning weapon, your attacks deal 1..17..22 additional damage and you gain 1 energy.

Energy, cast time, and recharge changed to make it more flexable, while allowing elemental attackers to simulate a zealous weapon mod. I know wanding stuff isn't all that hot, but if it were also energy management, then it might not be as bad while waiting out recharge times or exhaustion periods.

Changes for the earth line would need to be done on a more individual basis.

Ash blast 10e .75s 7r
Target foe and all nearby foes are struck for 20...48...57 damage. If ash blast strikes a knocked down foe, that foe suffers from blindness and weakness for 3..13..16 seconds.

Thoughts behind this change are to allow for more synergy with the earth based skills.

Dragon stomp/Earth quake 25e 2s 15r
Shorten cast time to improve functionality.

Ebon Hawk 10e 1s 5r
Shorten cast time to improve functionality.

Eruption 15e 2s 20r
For 1...5...7 seconds, nearby foes are struck for 5...28...36 earth damage and blinded for 3...9...10 seconds.

Improve efficiency by energy cost reduction and functionality with recharge reduction and application to more closely resemble dust trap when triggered.

Glowstone 5e 1s 5r
If the target is suffering from weakness or blindness you gain 1...7...10 energy.

Altered recharge to match glowing gaze and added blindness for more cross spec applications.

Grasping earth 15e 1s 12r
Target foe and all nearby foes are hexed with Grasping earth. For 8..18..21 seconds any hexed foe moves 50% slower, but has +24 armor against physical damage. For every second spent moving, that foe takes 5..17..21 damage earth damage.

There is no sense in having this skill be required to be a PBAOE, if its giving a benefit instead of damage to the target and not be a 66% snare like frozen burst. Furthermore, being a hex, and having it removable instead of a ward, which has a larger area and cant be removed.

Magnetic Aura 10e .25s 30r
For 5..17..21 seconds, adjacent allies have a 75% chance to "block" melee attacks.

Changes made to have the spell more closely resemble the unremoveable Protector's defense. It still does not have a 100% uptime with a 20% mod and a smaller area effect than ward vs melee.

Shockwave 10e .75s 10r
I do not see a reason why it requires to be on a slower recyle than aftershock. It is eliete and unconditional, but does less damage in a wider area.

Stone daggers
If both daggers hit, that foe suffers from weakness for 1..2..3 seconds.

Still weak, but could be used as temporary melee hate.

Stone sheath 10e 1s 15r
For 10..30..37 seconds, attacks made by target foe and all nearby foes deal earth damage, attack 25% slower, and can not cause a critical hit.

If their weapons are toting a bunch of rock stuck to them, I would figure it would make sense to attack a little slower. It doesnt last as long or is as strong as shadow of fear, but it could add some depth into earth.

Stone striker 5e .25s 10r
Whenever you deal earth damage, you gain 1 energy.

With the abscence of a conjure within this line, the addition of a different way to gain energy could be considered useful.

Stoning 10e 1s 5r

Stoning doesn't need to be as much of a energy pig as it is.

Water is going to be more difficult and ill do it in another post.

Not sure i like the electrocution idea. It's interesting in a sense, but then again you basically make every air nuke an interrupt... FC Air Mesmers would just be totally insane. I can imagine a MoR Mesmer with Air Atunement just spamming small air nukes with it on everyone for fun.

Conjures, i just don't agree. Conjure W/E WOULD be too powerful if that was implemented, as it's basically Zealous weapon with no -e pip. Conjure already has the advantage of making RoF near worthless (it always hits before the weapon and so strips RoF for like 10 damage) but now W/E with Conjure would have crazy energy too and could for example spam Prot Strikes, etc. It's just not balanced on non-ele.

And Stoning deserves to be 15E. It's a KD with decent damage (ofc conditional kd, but why are you using it if you don't plan to meet the condition anyway).

Stone Striker would be way too good too, again mostly for attackers...

I dunno, i think too many things in what you suggest are just seriously abusive. It's the main problem with the elementalist class in general, they NEED a buff somehow on non-elites, but lots of things are just seriously problematic if you buff them.

Phades · Jan 15, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Making Eruption trigger blindness on each pulse would be way too overpowered. Dust Trap being easily interrupted offsets its power. Perhaps auto-blind all nearby foes immediately, then do the damage per second. Would certainly make it useful outside of PVE.

Except you can work around the easily interupted aspect in addition to having more than one layed down from a single user at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

I doubt we'll see many (or any) more full-bar disabling skills, considering the numerous nerfs to Blackout already.

Blackout is a very long duration and is easily combod from a single character to extend the mes effect to silly time lengths. The short term blackouts were more for an option to extend adrenalin hate in a different direction, while giving the possibility, albiet unlikely, interupts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

The proposed changes to conjure would make it a bit nuts though, it's already potentially quite good on a physical-getting a penalty free zealous on top of a healthy chunk of damage would be...potent.

I never stated that wanding was good, but i did overlook the low to zero spec secondaries taking advantage of the e-gain. It could be adjusted to 0..1..1 and force a decent attribute investment. Sins using it would probably be more of a issue than wars though, even though wars could never really keep spamming their energy skills anyhow. (Yay for thumpers -_-; )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Having air inflict "mini-blackouts" seem difficult to balance-either it's a barely noticeable annoyance or it's a complete lockdown depending on if you can keep the spam going.

Some of the energy costs and many of cast times, when including after casting, are really prevent a single caster creating a lockdown. The duration is short to make the overlap between more than one user harder to chain, but still possible. The idea is to engineer the concept of pressure through temporary skill lock similar to the gale->blackout setup that mesmers have enjoyed for so long. The difference being, that its not complete shutdown 100% of the time and it can be prevented through various means, yet largely tied through the smaller nukes instead of being dominated by omgwtf spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

[skill=Lightning Strike]Lightning Strike[/skill]
5E, 1s, 2r
Same damage as before.
[skill=Lightning Javelin]Lightning Javelin[/skill]
5E, .75s, 2r
If it hits you strike for 15..51...63 damage and you interrupt attacking foes. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Ok with just those 2 skills you are comming close to the theoretical lightning strike dps that ensign refered to in why nuking sucks. For reference:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

*(theoretical) Lightning Strike spam*

70 damage per hit, 1.75 second investment. 40 damage per second, 2400 damage per minute. Auto-hit, some armor penetration.

It would still be inferior to the IAS auto attack of hammers and tote none of the utility built into the attack skills, which stack on top of those numbers, that spells simply don't have. This is why I was trying to move away from just the raw dps theory. Also, if fire were to get the buffs i stated earlier, that *should* be the dps line and the other lines should have their own distinction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

[skill=Lightning Orb]Lightning Orb[/skill]
Same stats, but up projectile speed by 50% so it doesn't miss as often.

Actually i was saving that one for glyph of elemental power. Add on the text "your elemental projectiles travel twice as fast" or something to that effect. Even fireball, the most "user friendly" elementalist projectile, can be avoided.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I'm not sure what to do with the elites though. I'll have to think about that some more.

Air is hard, because you can't really go up with the damage numbers, but i thought it was easier than trying to nudge water universally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Not sure i like the electrocution idea. It's interesting in a sense, but then again you basically make every air nuke an interrupt... FC Air Mesmers would just be totally insane. I can imagine a MoR Mesmer with Air Atunement just spamming small air nukes with it on everyone for fun.

Doing the standard gale->blackout or gale->diversion->blackout cycles would be far easier for a mesmer, especially with a lower investment in air skills producting less damage. The only question would be, is when to spike with other team mebers, requiring only 1 skill for damage. We have had that kind of interupt all along via fast casting with gale and gale is stronger for the attribute investment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

And Stoning deserves to be 15E. It's a KD with decent damage (ofc conditional kd, but why are you using it if you don't plan to meet the condition anyway).

I dont know about you, but i have problems keeping blind up on someone for the duration. Weakness is typically a longer duration on a slower recharge, which simply gets crushed by the same removal options. 10e would make it more balanced for the conditional skill that it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I dunno, i think too many things in what you suggest are just seriously abusive. It's the main problem with the elementalist class in general, they NEED a buff somehow on non-elites, but lots of things are just seriously problematic if you buff them.

Lol and other classes arent abusive? Where did hammer warriors go? How about just elementalist primaries in general? If something gets to be more abusive elsewhere, then it gets abused. The thing is you can either nerf the rest of the game into oblivion, or you bring other skill sets up to speed with it. Still, nothing i suggested (excluding the conjures that i didnt think enough into), is close to what dom mesmers are capable of without outside assistance.

HolyHawk · Jan 15, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

I'm not so sure if lowering recharges in the air spells would help. Mind shock eles would be too dangerous. L.Orb has a trade back, it can do massive dmg if it hits, but it's a projectile; same concept with vapor blade, huge dmg, but halved if enchanted. Ride the lightning on the other hand doesn't need exhaustion; you are exposing yourself by using it, it does not cause kd, or any condition, just a teleport, you can't even return. I'm surprised no one mentioned energy boon. Has it ever been used?

Symbol · Jan 15, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I never stated that wanding was good, but i did overlook the low to zero spec secondaries taking advantage of the e-gain. It could be adjusted to 0..1..1 and force a decent attribute investment. Sins using it would probably be more of a issue than wars though, even though wars could never really keep spamming their energy skills anyhow. (Yay for thumpers -_-; )

(I was replying to Kvndoom with the "wanding sucks" comment BTW).

IMO, your conjure is a problem with even medium spec secondaries. Warriors can get serious mileage out of conjure by spamming stuff like prot strike, and it's potentially even better on a dervish who has a nice selection of quickly recharging and hard hitting scythe attacks.

If some supplemental energy management is what you want, tie the energy gain to energy storage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Some of the energy costs and many of cast times, when including after casting, are really prevent a single caster creating a lockdown. The duration is short to make the overlap between more than one user harder to chain, but still possible. The idea is to engineer the concept of pressure through temporary skill lock similar to the gale->blackout setup that mesmers have enjoyed for so long. The difference being, that its not complete shutdown 100% of the time and it can be prevented through various means, yet largely tied through the smaller nukes instead of being dominated by omgwtf spike.

Mmm, I don't think so actually. It's easy to get something like 2-3 hits every 6 seconds by going with strike-orb-javelin, that's pretty much locking someone down for >50% of the time.

It's a neat idea, but a bit too prone to abuse. Something as simple as blackout-gale caused numerous balance problems, tying a similar effect to a bunch of air nukes sounds very difficult to handle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

It would still be inferior to the IAS auto attack of hammers and tote none of the utility built into the attack skills, which stack on top of those numbers, that spells simply don't have. This is why I was trying to move away from just the raw dps theory. Also, if fire were to get the buffs i stated earlier, that *should* be the dps line and the other lines should have their own distinction.

A caster matching frenzy autoattack IAS with two skills seems like a good place to be, IMO. Don't underestimate the benefit of range, especially with instant hit spells like strike. And it's easy to go higher. Strike + javelin ~ 46 dps without any fast cast gear, with it you'll be in the 50+ range which is very good. Devoting two slots to damage and filling the rest with utility (bflash, gale, maybe windborne or SDH) and emanagement seems like a viable character. It's not a drop in replacement for a warrior, but it can do things the warrior can't as well.

Also, fire would still be the raw dps line. It would be very hard to match something like a 10e no exhaustion mind burn + glowing gaze + smoldering embers (with 5/1/5 stats of course) with anything in air. Certainly not without resorting to projectile spam (and having no-LOS, instant hit, spells is a huge benefit). Your energy management would be considerably less fragile as well, as you're not relying solely on an attunement or two.

And there's the whole AoE aspect which presumably would be buffed to not suck. I don't buy that fire is meant to be the "no-utility" line, it's utility is supposed to be area-denial, it's just that it sucks so bad at that currently that said aspect might as well not exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Air is hard, because you can't really go up with the damage numbers, but i thought it was easier than trying to nudge water universally.

True enough, though honestly surge deserves a damage boost. It should have the 25% AP that all air spells do. Mind shock I really can't complain about, esp if the rest of the line is buffed some. It's the other stuff that I'm at a loss for what to do.

Let's start with:
[skill=Glimmering Mark]Glimmering Mark[/skill]
This skill is bad in so many ways. It's an elite that causes blind, which is already dubious since you can achieve a similar effecting by using bflash + elite energy management. On top of that it's a hex AND the blind is conditional.

IMO if it has to be a hex, then at least make it useful as a cover hex. Suggestion:
5e 1s 5R.
You don't care if it's removed, because you can put it back up quickly. In a hex build you can use it to cover more threatening hexes, and it serves a useful purpose for as long as it sticks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Actually i was saving that one for glyph of elemental power. Add on the text "your elemental projectiles travel twice as fast" or something to that effect. Even fireball, the most "user friendly" elementalist projectile, can be avoided.

IMO GoEP Is easy, just link the number of spells to ES.
5E 1/4s 15R
Your next 5...10...12 spells have a +2 bonus to their linked attribute.

Phades · Jan 15, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

If some supplemental energy management is what you want, tie the energy gain to energy storage.

Well that does dodge attribute cutoffs, though i didnt think that 12 skill investment in a secondary profession was light.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Mmm, I don't think so actually. It's easy to get something like 2-3 hits every 6 seconds by going with strike-orb-javelin, that's pretty much locking someone down for >50% of the time.

Compared to 100% shutdown for ~12s or more? A lot of stuff can happen in that timeframe compared to the windows that are created with the short term blackouts. Sure you can get lucky and fast cast via mods to shorten the delivery, but many of those that are listed are also projectiles that add flight time to that figure as well, not to mention can be avoided. Even so, a monk could still squeeze out a .25s cast time skill before a .5s cast time spell landed when you figure in after cast penalties. Then again that is the entire point with temp mes effects anyhow, forcing the other guy to make choices based upon time available.

Also, we arent even discussing the prot half of the condition, where you are looking at a minimum of 10 investment to not be foiled by a shield of absorption on a AL 60 target for the smaller nukes (this ignores +AL mods entirely), or being foiled at any given time under agelic bond situations or requiring 16 attribute points for a al 100 target etc. It is quite different than saying you must use one of a handfull of skills to avoid half of a 12s shutdown, with the other half being near unavoidable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

It's a neat idea, but a bit too prone to abuse. Something as simple as blackout-gale caused numerous balance problems, tying a similar effect to a bunch of air nukes sounds very difficult to handle.

Yeah, but those 2 skills are still in the game and blackout was only toned back slightly with diversion getting ignored somehow entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

A caster matching frenzy autoattack IAS with two skills seems like a good place to be, IMO. Don't underestimate the benefit of range, especially with instant hit spells like strike. And it's easy to go higher. Strike + javelin ~ 46 dps without any fast cast gear, with it you'll be in the 50+ range which is very good.

The theoretical dps was as if there was no recast time on lightning strike, in addition to not attemting to figure in flight time of projectiles and miss rates. Then again, spending 8.5 pips of regeneration only to match sword dps without any attack skills, seems a bit off if its only doing damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Devoting two slots to damage and filling the rest with utility (bflash, gale, maybe windborne or SDH) and emanagement seems like a viable character. It's not a drop in replacement for a warrior, but it can do things the warrior can't as well.

Or you could just use a ebon dust aura dervish with bulls strike, or something along those lines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Also, fire would still be the raw dps line. It would be very hard to match something like a 10e no exhaustion mind burn + glowing gaze + smoldering embers (with 5/1/5 stats of course) with anything in air. Certainly not without resorting to projectile spam (and having no-LOS, instant hit, spells is a huge benefit). Your energy management would be considerably less fragile as well, as you're not relying solely on an attunement or two.

Then why bother duplicating it elsewhere?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Let's start with:
This skill is bad in so many ways. It's an elite that causes blind, which is already dubious since you can achieve a similar effecting by using bflash + elite energy management. On top of that it's a hex AND the blind is conditional.

IMO if it has to be a hex, then at least make it useful as a cover hex. Suggestion:
5e 1s 5R.
You don't care if it's removed, because you can put it back up quickly. In a hex build you can use it to cover more threatening hexes, and it serves a useful purpose for as long as it sticks.

You reinvented bsurge, but changed the aoe condition from enchantment to hex and now force people to use divert hexes in the attempt to keep up with your unstopable blind spam via wands and such for free. I am not saying its bad, but just trying to keep it in relative perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

IMO GoEP Is easy, just link the number of spells to ES.
5E 1/4s 15R
Your next 5...10...12 spells have a +2 bonus to their linked attribute.

It needs to do something more than a +2 bonus. Also, glyphs wear off after 15s. You would be hard pressed getting in 10 spells in that time, assuming you had the energy available as well. Its in the same boat as glyph of concentration. Why bother when you get the same effect essentially, while delivering the effect sooner?

Symbol · Jan 15, 2007, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Well that does dodge attribute cutoffs, though i didnt think that 12 skill investment in a secondary profession was light.

With the 0...1...1 notation the rollover would occur around 10-11 points (GW uses a linear scale).

Quote:

Compared to 100% shutdown for ~12s or more? A lot of stuff can happen in that timeframe compared to the windows that are created with the short term blackouts. Sure you can get lucky and fast cast via mods to shorten the delivery, but many of those that are listed are also projectiles that add flight time to that figure as well, not to mention can be avoided. Even so, a monk could still squeeze out a .25s cast time skill before a .5s cast time spell landed when you figure in after cast penalties. Then again that is the entire point with temp mes effects anyhow, forcing the other guy to make choices based upon time available.

It's one think for a monk to squeeze off a .25 sec RoF, it's another for other casters who cast longer spells less often-they'd often find themselves useless as well as taking a non-trivial amount of damage. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm saying that it requires careful handling and a lot of ingame testing to make worthwhile. I don't see A.net doing this.

Flight time is a double edged sword. A projectile following an instant hit will add a little time between hits, but an instant hit following a projectile will compress the hits-so it's a wash in the end.

As for the prot issue, I'll just say that it's far more efficient for a ranged character to switch targets (essentially 0 time penalty) then it is a for a melee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Yeah, but those 2 skills are still in the game and blackout was only toned back slightly with diversion getting ignored somehow entirely.

Blackout was nerfed twice and diversion once. The changes were pretty significant too. And these are skills with relatively comprehensible effects with few/none unforeseen interactions with other skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

The theoretical dps was as if there was no recast time on lightning strike, in addition to not attemting to figure in flight time of projectiles and miss rates. Then again, spending 8.5 pips of regeneration only to match sword dps without any attack skills, seems a bit off if its only doing damage.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up this example, we're not talking about a hypothetical 4 copies of LS, we're talking about the hypothetical buffed strike + javelin, which does approx 46 dps without FC gear. Sword autoattack dps is 38 btw. Flight time doesn't affect peak dps-being a projectile reduces what you get in practice, but such effects are impossible to quantify.

It's an energy hog-but you want strong e-management for things likes bflash anyway so it doesn't matter in the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Or you could just use a ebon dust aura dervish with bulls strike, or something along those lines.

Hardly, the ebon dust dervish can blind spam but can't catch spikes and for disruption gale >>> bull's strike (unconditional ranged 3 sec KD vs conditional melee 2sec KD, no contest).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Then why bother duplicating it elsewhere?

How can you be "duplicating" it when the fire build is better at doing damage? That was your complaint, correct?

Buffing air doesn't mean that it automatically becomes as good at doing damage as fire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phade

You reinvented bsurge, but changed the aoe condition from enchantment to hex and now force people to use divert hexes in the attempt to keep up with your unstopable blind spam via wands and such for free. I am not saying its bad, but just trying to keep it in relative perspective.

No it really isn't like bsurge. It only duplicates one aspect of bsurge, which is the melee lockdown ability. It can't catch spikes, and it doesn't do any damage, and you certainly don't need divert to deal with it unless you're talking about a hex stack build.

Bsurge is borderline OPed and I'm certainly not trying to duplicate it. The problem with this skill is that it's an elite blind that is also a hex. Given the current game environment (extremely powerful hex removal) that means it as to be either a) really, really good at blinding or b) really cheap and easy to apply, or c) do something else entirely. I don't want a), bsurge is bad enough as it is, c) is unlikely, therefore I'm left with b).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

It needs to do something more than a +2 bonus. Also, glyphs wear off after 15s. You would be hard pressed getting in 10 spells in that time, assuming you had the energy available as well. Its in the same boat as glyph of concentration. Why bother when you get the same effect essentially, while delivering the effect sooner?

That's the point. It's meant for spell spam builds where you want more damage, but you don't have the time to squeeze in any other casts. If the glyph duration is a problem, just raise it to 20 seconds or thereabouts. I'm open to other suggestions, one could make the attribute bonus scale (+1...4) instead of the # of spells, but that raises issues with spike which A.net doesn't seem prepared to deal with.