Curse

Vermilion · Jan 01, 2007, 06:38 AM // 06:38

I don't know about mindburn. Sure a lot of the damage will be negated by armor, but the burning needs to be taken into consideration. there is always some conditional removal, but conditions aren't completely dominating right now so there shouldn't be *that* much. In that case, why run conditions at all if they're just going to be removed? Took a little longer than I wanted to, but you get the point. 7 secs of burning is nothing to scoff at, esp with the +damage.

imo, make it 10 energy and remove exhaustion.

Now that I think about it, MB is like an elite immolate.

Symbol · Jan 01, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

I'm not averse to raising the energy to 10, it's not like an elementalist with fire attunement and GG will have trouble paying for mind burn's upkeep in either case.

Burning is a threat, but only if you can easily reapply it. You can't do that with mind burn as it is so...

Seef II · Jan 01, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

[skill=Magehunter Strike]Magehunter Strike[/skill]
Change from energy to 2 adrenaline.

Is it worth it, though, to cripple your adrenaline output? Sure, you can hit through Aegis with this puppy, but no one runs Whirling Axe, and I'm not sure the 1/2 second activation time will save Magehunter, since its damage bonus is pretty paltry. That said, there aren't really any alternatives for afterspike on swords and hammers. Eremite's and Mystic Sweep force /D, which really isn't desireable, and Prot Strike is conditional on movement.

twicky_kid · Jan 01, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Actually, not even close. Even if whirling didn't have the disable clause dragon slash totally destroys it for dps. Not only does dslash pump up your dps hugely, but you also get to spike more often. Whirling cripples your adren gain so you can't even take advantage of spammable deep wound which is pretty much the main thing axe has going for it outside of eviscerate/crit chop.

I like neoflame's suggestion of adrenaline gain if it misses.

I'm comparing it to other axe elites. Yes dragon slash is more DPS I'll give you that. At the same time do you think that its under Anet's radar? Honestly DS destroys all other dps options by a mile. I wouldn't be surprised if its changed. More than likely Sun and Moon's adren cost will be increased to prevent the spamming. Could be a combination of reduced adren gain on DS and increased adren on SM.

Symbol · Jan 01, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Is it worth it, though, to cripple your adrenaline output? Sure, you can hit through Aegis with this puppy, but no one runs Whirling Axe, and I'm not sure the 1/2 second activation time will save Magehunter, since its damage bonus is pretty paltry. That said, there aren't really any alternatives for afterspike on swords and hammers. Eremite's and Mystic Sweep force /D, which really isn't desireable, and Prot Strike is conditional on movement.

Well, that's kinda the idea-to make magehunter strike a whirling axe that doesn't suck. It has a lot of things going for it that whirling doesn't:
1) 1/2 sec activation time. This is really big. At 2 adrenaline it buffs up your effective attack speed quite a lot, and protector's + mage hunter's is a good spike by itself.

2) Hits through block/evade. Not only does it go through guardian/aegis but it will also hit through stances and such provided the target is enchanted.

3) A moderate amount of +damage. It isn't much, but it adds up since you can land it every other attack.

It should provide a reasonable choice-devote half your adrenaline and elite slot but in return you get a versatile skill that both pumps up your dps and spike and goes through defensive enchants as a bonus.

As it is, it's just another 5E attack that warriors can't use because of energy problems, what's the point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I'm comparing it to other axe elites. Yes dragon slash is more DPS I'll give you that. At the same time do you think that its under Anet's radar? Honestly DS destroys all other dps options by a mile. I wouldn't be surprised if its changed. More than likely Sun and Moon's adren cost will be increased to prevent the spamming. Could be a combination of reduced adren gain on DS and increased adren on SM.

Dragon slash won't be touched. It's a specialist skill that doesn't see that much play as it is. If whirling gave you back 4 adren on being blocked/evaded it would be interesting, you wouldn't get the raw damage of dragon slash, but you wouldn't be nearly as fragile either (it really hurts when dslash misses or you get blackouted).

Phades · Jan 01, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

[skill=Smoldering Embers]Smoldering Embers[/skill]
...
It's an immolate that's worse in every way which matters, and immolate is pretty meh by itself.

Change to 1s cast, 8s recharge. It'd still be a boring nuke, but at least it'll give fire elementalists something to put on their bar if they're just looking to burn a single target down.

I would say its closer to [skill=Incendiary Bonds]Incendiary Bonds[/skill] than immolate. The difference being, is that smoldering embers is made to suck bad simply because its 5e instead of 15e. Even so, Incendiary Bonds stands to deserve a buff as well if fireball/liquid flame is to be used as the baseline for skills in the skill set. Then you also have to observe other things like how conjure phantasm does more damage at 10 illusion skill than immolate at 14 fire skill (100 damage vs 99). For reference
[skill=Conjure Phantasm]Conjure Phantasm[/skill] [skill=Immolate]Immolate[/skill]
Some changed i would make as a general nudge to the fireline would be along the lines of:

Breath of Fire 10e 2s 15r This skill lasts for (1...5...7) seconds.

Improved recharge and duration to create a better suppression tool.

Firestorm 15e 1s 15r This skill lasts for (1...12...15) seconds.

Improved recharge and cast time, with longer duration to create a better suppression tool.

Tenai's Heat/Searing Heat 25e 2s 15r Struck nearby foes are set on fire for (1...2...2) seconds. This skill lasts for (1...5...7) seconds.

Improved recharge and duration to create a better suppression tool. Conditional burning changed to improve functionality.
(Note: I am not sure if it is possible to have variable AOE duration under the current mechanics of the game)

Immolate (24...60..71)Damage (1...3...4)Burning

With this change it would start passing up fireball in damage at 12 skill, but the tradeoff is single target vs potential AOE and it would be more competitve with conjure phantasm for basic pressure. This is ignoring of course mantra of persistance augmentations.

Incendiary Bonds 10e, 2s, 10r. (1...3...4)Burning

With this change it brings it closer to fireball functionality, but still requires the hex trigger to function and allows for more potential pressure with longer burning duration.

Mind burn 15e 1s 5r (no exhaustion) (24...60..71)Damage (1...4...5)Burning
If you have more energy than your target this skill deals an additional (24...60..71)Damage and burns for(1...4...5) seconds longer.

Minor scaling adjustment to keep it inline with immolate. With the existance of glowing gaze and glyph of lesser energy, the energy management options would allow for greater use over time at a higher base energy cost, instead of forcing a limited use lifespan with the exhaustion mechanic making the skill more of a threat over time. Trade off versus the current searing flames would be the abscence of AOE, slower recharge, and slightly worse stacking options.

Mind blast (24...60..71)Damage (2...8...12)energy

Damage push to scale with immolate and a minor push for utility for better energy gain at slightly lower levels.

Glowing gaze (15...51...63)

Minor damage push to the old immolate level. Energy curve not adjusted, in order to make more of a distinction between mind blast and glowing gaze.

Smoldering embers 5e 1s 5r Hex ends after (3...2...1) seconds. Burning lasts for (1...2...3) seconds.

Hex ending sooner allows for combination gale use to potentially trigger burning from a singler user. Better cast and recharge time to give more pressure.

Phoenix 15e 2s 10r

Improved cast time to give a better chance for the full effect.

Meteor 5e 2s 20r

Better cast time and recharge to improve use and reuse, but doesnt address the avoidance rate under run speed boost.

Rodgort's invocation 25e 2s 10r (20...104...131)Damage (1...3...4)Burning

Minor damage push to follow mind burn scaling (they have always been close currently mindburn 126 damage 7s burn vs Rodgort's invocation at 127 damage and 3s burn) and improved cast time and recharge for better functionality.

Flare (20...55...67) If this strikes a moving or knocked down target, that target is set on fire for (1...2...2) seconds. (Use hunter's shot mechanics)

Minor damage push to follow glowing gaze, while adding a conditional burning to help it suck less. It will still suck, but i dont see how it could be touched more without causing a problem.

Burning Speed 5e .25s (5...10...15) Duration for run speed increase. You are set on fire for (10...4...2) seconds. While you are enchanted, all adjacent foes are set on fire for (1...3...4) seconds. (Use disease mechanics)

Improved duration and reduced cost for functionality, but made burning scale to make it less attractive at lower levels.

Flame Djinn Haste 10e .75s 10r (15...91...119)Damage (5...10...15)Duration

Minor damage reduction in exchange for better run speed functionality.

TLLOTS · Jan 01, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

For Mind Blast, I'd much rather see a change like this (underlined parts indicate changes)
Mind Blast (Elite)
Energy Cost: 10
Cast Time: 1
Recharge Time: 5
Elite Spell. Target foe is struck for 15..75..95 fire damage. If you have more energy than target foe, you gain 5..14..18 energy.

HolyHawk · Jan 02, 2007, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Made a warrior list, but I don't really play warriors, so it's possible that there are some absurds bellow =P

- Axe Twist: lower cost to 5 adrenaline
- Decapitate [e]: lower to 7 adrenaline (losing all adrenaline and energy is still a big penitence)
- Whirling Axe [e]: if it is blocked, disables for 10 secs and gain 2 adrenaline.
- Belly Smash: lower recharge to 15 seconds
- Crude Swing: remove easilly interrupted (it's adjacent anyways)
- "I'll survive!": regeneration expires after 20 seconds top
- Battle Rage [e]: ends if you use any non battle skill but b.rage itself
- Dwarven Battle Stance [e]: lower cost to 5 energy, lower recharge to 25 seconds.
- Flourish [e]: lower activation to 3/4
- Warrior's Cunning: lower recharge to 30 seconds
- "None Shall Pass!": lower recharge to 30 seconds
- Defensive Stance: lower recharge to 30 seconds
- Disciplined Stance: lasts from 5..20 seconds
- Protector's Defense: lasts 5...17 seconds, affects nearby allies
- Frenzied Defense: lower to 5 seconds recharge (still takes double dmg)
- Skull Crack [e]: 7 or 8 adrenaline (c'mon, magebane shot does a better job)

kvndoom · Jan 02, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

While I would love to see Crude Swing moved to the non-suck category, I doubt it'll ever happen. AOE and +damage from a hammer is just too much. And it would get abused by farmers pretty bad too. There aren't too many solo-farm hammer builds, but free up Crude and then you can get a Galdiator's Defense/Renewing Smash/Crude Swing build going that would wreak havoc on melee AI. I know this is a PVP thread, but things like that have to be considered too (Spirit Bond was nerfed because of PVE farming).

Flourish is cool on an Assassin. I never woulda thought of that. On a Warrior it just plain sucks. Funny isn't it? Sheesh, Ritual Lord was insta-cast and it absolutely ruined GVG for 6 months. Flourish should be insta-cast, still wouldn't see much use, but maybe a little more.

Warrior's Cunning is one of the biggest jokes in GW. 30 seconds recharge would make some people look at it. At 60s it's just absolute garbage.

DBS is another joke. Lower recharge a little more, make it "ends if you use a non-attack skill," and maybe more than 2 or 3 people will use the skill.

Battle Rage is a teeter-totter Elite. If it doesn't cancel itself it's way too powerful. Permanent 25% run boost, plus all your adrenaline attacks pretty much ready in half-time? What they could do is make it an energy-based skill with a duration and a recharge, so it has some cooldown (not a whole lot, but some), and then get rid of the "if you use a non-attack skill" clause altogether.

Belly Smash is another joke. You generally only get one attack in on a KD'ed foe (unless you're using Backbreaker). Okay I got the enemy Monk on his ass, what shall I do next? Deep Wound? No! I shall blind him! Ugh. I don't see any way to make this skill more desireable than Crushing Blow.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 02, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

If warriors cunning was 30 sec recharge it would definitely find its way onto warrior bars. Especially in adrenospike builds (eurospike ftw), it would allow you to easily spike through stuff like aegis, along with being useful for hitting through ranger stances or w/e in splits.

Symbol · Jan 02, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Phade:

Most of the changes there sound reasonable enough, though I'd probably use the 15..63(79) damage scale for consistency, and I'd rather have a 10E mind burn with current damage stats with perhaps part of the burning being unconditional than a 15E one doing slightly more damage.

I wouldn't hope for any changes to skills that are widely used (like GG for example) though.

Bankai · Jan 02, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

HolyHawk, that's a really nice list, agree with all of them.

We really need people to look at the somewhat older non-elite skills.

Lord Natural · Jan 02, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Add a map to HA with friendly (but not charmable) Bladed Aatxe(s), which will force all teams to carry Otyugh's Cry. Give the skill a 1-2 second cast time, so that teams can have fun interrupting each other for this significant map advantage

TheOneMephisto · Jan 02, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Add a map to HA with friendly (but not charmable) Bladed Aatxe(s), which will force all teams to carry Otyugh's Cry. Give the skill a 1-2 second cast time, so that teams can have fun interrupting each other for this significant map advantage

... that's the most retarded idea I've ever heard

OTYUGH'S CRY GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apraxas · Jan 02, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

the thing id like to see buffed are smite signets

20 seconds its too long recharge and 2 second cast totally kill the usefullnes of them

just make them 1s cast and 15 recharge so a smite monk its actually viable

signet of mystic wrath, and the other that is 30 + 9 for each adren

Divineshadows · Jan 02, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

- Plauge sending. Either make it transfer all conditions or keep it as single condition transferred and reduce energy cost to 5 and sac to 5%.
- Price of Failure. Reduce casting time to 2 seconds.
- Weaken Armor. Reduce casting time to 2 seconds.
- Spirit of Failure. Reduce casting time to 2 seconds.
- Spirit Shackles. Reduce casting time to 2 seconds.
- Unnatural Signet. Give it a 3/4 second activation time and make it do 50% more damage to spirits in addition to the instant recharge.
- Drain Enchantment. Increase the energy gain by 1.
- Inspired and revealed hex. Increase the energy gain by 1.
- Tease. Remove the end if foe hits you clause.
- Lyssa's Aura. Increase duration by 1 second.
- Buff inspiration in general.
- Signet of Disenchantment. Lose all energy and remove 2 enchantments from target foe.
- Iron Mist. Reduce recharge to 20 seconds.
- Shard Storm. Reduce recharge to 7 seconds.
- Frozen Burst. Reduce recharge to 20 seconds.
- Find Their Weakness. Reduce energy cost to 5.
- Mighty Throw. Reduce activation to 2 seconds.
- Unblockable Throw. Reduce activation to 2 seconds.
- Divine Spirit. Reduce recharge to 45 seconds.
- Divine Intervention. Reduce recharge to 20 seconds.
- Watchful Healing. Make the healing at the end of the enchantment unconditional, but increase the energy cost to 10.
- Pacifism. Reduce recharge to 20 seconds.
- Amity. Reduce recharge to 20 seconds.
- Reverse hex. Reduce cast time to 1 second.
- Shielding hands. Reduce recharge to 15 seconds.
- Mend Ailment. Reduce recharge to 4 seconds.
- Shield Guardian. Increase allies healed to be in the area.
- Supportive Spirit. Increase amount healed per damage while knocked down by 10.
- Mending. Increase amount of regen by 2 at each level. This skill just pales in comparison now to mending refrain and mystic regen.
- Signet of Rejuvination. Reduce activation time to 3/4 seconds.
- Healing Burst. Increase the AoE to allies in the area.
- Smite. Reduce energy cost to 5.
- Strength of Honor. Increase the damage buff by 3.
- Signet of Rage. Increase the unconditional damage by 10.
- Deny hexes. Move to divine favor.
- Buff all the hard rezzes except rez chant somehow as they all pale in comparison to rez signet.
- Warriors cunning. Reduce recharge to 45 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apraxas

just make them 1s cast and 15 recharge so a smite monk its actually viable

signet of mystic wrath, and the other that is 30 + 9 for each adren

No way on a 1 second activation for signet of mystic wrath. I would be fine though with a 1 second signet of rage and a 1 second bane signet.

Lord Natural · Jan 03, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

... that's the most retarded idea I've ever heard

OTYUGH'S CRY GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's the point. What beautiful irony it would be, to take the most useless skill in GW and turn it into a 'must have'

twicky_kid · Jan 03, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Dragon slash won't be touched. It's a specialist skill that doesn't see that much play as it is. If whirling gave you back 4 adren on being blocked/evaded it would be interesting, you wouldn't get the raw damage of dragon slash, but you wouldn't be nearly as fragile either (it really hurts when dslash misses or you get blackouted).

Not saying it will with this balance but if pressure becomes too widely used again it would be.

I like the idea of whirling giving adren back but that would still be crap with the 15 second disable. Even 3-4 seconds will hurt your dps alot when it comes to pressure. The other reason that doesn't work for axes, unlike sword, you only carry 2 adrenaline skills. Sword carries 3-4 most of the time so D slash is worth it. There is a reason furious axe has NEVER seen play in competitive pvp. Axes do not need more adrenaline to function.

Even with a change to the disable there are tons of counters. Just like with any other spammable skill diversion works well, shield bash, sig of humility, ect....

Riotgear · Jan 03, 2007, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

The difference being, is that smoldering embers is made to suck bad simply because its 5e instead of 15e.

It still doesn't even remotely justify a 2-second cast time, particularly since its conditional effect is both non-threatening AND easy to prevent. And it justifies a 10-second recharge too? lolol

Quote:

Firestorm 15e 1s 15r This skill lasts for (1...12...15) seconds.

Decreasing the recharge is a good idea, though I'd say it needs a damage and area boost more than it needs a duration boost. It's not only that firestorm is easy to walk out of, it's that no one cares if they walk in to it. You need to stand in it for 4 seconds to suffer the same damage as a single fireball.

twicky_kid · Jan 03, 2007, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Decreasing the recharge is a good idea, though I'd say it needs a damage and area boost more than it needs a duration boost. It's not only that firestorm is easy to walk out of, it's that no one cares if they walk in to it. You need to stand in it for 4 seconds to suffer the same damage as a single fireball.

Yes but now multiply that 3-4 firestorms.

That is why aoe does not do huge dmg. Multiple instances spiked can be devistating.

Find a vid called hamstorm. Granted the players that lost to this are not the brightest but can illustrate how effective aoe can really be.