Curse

Hyunsai · Feb 11, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Yes, but there wasn't even a single attempt of balance any of this build skills. And don't tell me they don't look at RA/TA, otherwise Rampage as One would not have been nerfed... It's just that this build got so many melee counters and drawbacks I don't know how it's possible to deal with it.

Zuranthium · Feb 11, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Muffen Man

That too is noob combo

mark of insta, sp, bls, tf, bss/fs, bos

Mark of Instability gives them more time to react to the spike. It's not as good.

~Z

Riotgear · Feb 11, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Yes, but there wasn't even a single attempt of balance any of this build skills.

They didn't attempt to balance Jagged Bones in the first update either. My point stands.

Quote:

And don't tell me they don't look at RA/TA, otherwise Rampage as One would not have been nerfed...

Because RaO thumpers were clearly only effective in the arenas...

Patccmoi · Feb 11, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

I think ANet is reluctant to nerf this build atm because it's the only popular/played Assassin build. Because it's incredibly easy to do and any1 can do it in RA and feel good. Basically, it's a build that catter to the masses and the last safeguard of Assassins in PvP. ANet doesn't like a class to simply be inexistant in PvP, especially the arguably weakest PvE class.

Is it because other builds aren't viable? No. I think that many have just no idea how good the sins are for other stuff now and how good their utility got buff after buff. But the rest isn't brainless button-mashing that any1 can do in RA or without team support.

If other Assassin builds become played more, i think they'd be more willing to nerf this. But then again, as long as SP-BoA isn't nerfed, very few people will actually try other Assassin builds because they got their mind set that sins are bad for anything else (which i believe is totally wrong). It's a vicious circle and at a point they'll likely have to break it by either doing some absurd buffs to something else (and honestly, there is some other rather absurd sin skills atm like Moebius-Death Blossom-Horns of the Ox combo, Assault Enchantment, etc. but they're not as brainless as SP build) or by nerfing SP/BoA combo. Or they'll just leave it be and sins will always be looked at as a 1 build class, but a rather overpowered build.

Hyunsai · Feb 11, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

The fact that they downed Blades of Steel from 80 to 65 in the second update prove that they know well this build, and that this buff to 80 was a bit over the top.

I must agree with Patccmoi on this.

For example, a build like this is not as simple to play, but saved me countless times (due to hex breaker) and got much more versatility. I find it superior to the SP build when you're used to it.

A/Me
Dagger mastery 15 (11+1+3)
Critical strike 9 (8+1)
Shadow arts 9 (8+1)
Deadly arts 9 (8+1)
Domination 4

Siphon Speed
Black lotus
Death blossom
Impale
Moebius Strike
Hex breaker
Feigned neutrality
Rez

The Muffen Man · Feb 12, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Mark of Instability gives them more time to react to the spike. It's not as good.

~Z

Lol thats only if you have the reflexes of a corpes

master_of_puppets · Feb 16, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

they should buff the "golden" skills

Swift Thief · Feb 17, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

I've been constantly seeing monks with hex breaker now.

Greedy Gus · Feb 18, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Though this thread's content is largely spot-on, it's unfortunate that the OP missed the problem and pointed to shadow prison and burst of aggression as the culprits.

As we all know, dual-attacks are the real money skills of the dagger line. Ever since the introduction of the class, the strongest combos ignored lead attacks entirely in order to squeeze in as many dual-attacks as possible. But the skill balances don't make sense in relation to each other.

Take the classic damage combo from the release of Factions:

Lead-in:
Aura of Displacement (10/.25/15)

Golden Phoenix Strike (5/x/8)
Horns of the Ox (5/x/12)
Falling Spider (5/x/8)
<dual attack>

This was considered too powerful, to the tune of a recharge nerf on AoD and bumping GPS to 10e. Seemed to be a solid balance, as this combo still saw play as the strong combo, but also left room for the simpler shock->falling->twisting bars packed with more utility.

Enter Nightfall:

Lead-in:
Shadow Prison (5/.25/20)

Black Lotus Strike (10/x/12) (drastically reduced recharge) (+18e)
<dual attack>
Black Spider Strike (5/x/12)
<dual attack>

Now it's ridiculously simple to subvert lead attacks, you have two short recharge offhand attacks with the same pre-requisite (hex), one of which nets you a ~8 energy gain. The kicker is that you can chain each to a dual attack without relying on each other, so it's a more sturdy chain that the previous horns->falling trick.

Shadow prison is pretty much on par with AoD in terms of usefulness. AoD allows you some nice teleport tricks, and shadow prison provides the on-demand snare that you really want. And yet SP is only 5e.

And there's really no contest with the other skills in the chain. If GPS was too strong in that chain, it's astounding that black lotus + black spider haven't been wiped out of the game. Hexes are marginally more difficult to meet as a prerequisite, but also more difficult to remove in order to disrupt the chain (and also more useful than enchants for what you're doing [snare/debilitate]).

Hyunsai · Feb 18, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

I really can't see the reason why they don't revert AoD and Golden Phoenix to their initial state, especially after Nightfall release...

MaaKotka · Feb 18, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

IMO almost every lead attack and most unused offhands need to be buffed. Those couple of leads that sees some use are used almost purely for utility, not for lead attacks real purpose which is to start combos. Also most assassin elites are just pure crap, which makes those few actually good elites to be only ones which gets used. Also the fact that only those 2 elite tele skills are only offensive tele skills which have reasonable recharge doesn't help for other elites getting more use. In general assassins are a class which needs lots of buffs/skill changes to become something more than one build wonders.

Hyunsai · Feb 18, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I agree with that it's a bit strange that an offensive designed melee class got so few elites that can help him attain his goals... No wonder now you have only 2 builds used 99% of the time now: Shadow prison builds and Moebius Blossom builds.

To Shuuda: Yes there are some good stuffs like Shaterring assault, assault enchantments, even temple strike, Shroud of silence (or not, with this 30s recharge), but well...

Shuuda · Feb 18, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Anyone who thinks that them 2 builds are the only good ones, clearly need to looks more carefully at the other skills, you can find alot of good stuff.

Patccmoi · Feb 18, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

I agree with that it's a bit strange that an offensive designed melee class got so few elites that can help him attain his goals... No wonder now you have only 2 builds used 99% of the time now: Shadow prison builds and Moebius Blossom builds.

Personally i don't think that many elites are bad, but i agree a lot needs a rework. Here's my view on those (might be in wrong thread, but oh well):

Elites i think are fine:

Shadow Prison, obviously. Honestly i'd even see it go at 10E cost atm.

Moebius Strike. Very good DPS elite.

Assault Enchantments in a team setup is incredible, but you won't see that in RA/TA cause it requires more than 4 players to be worth it.

Shattering Assault WOULD be very good if they fix the stupid bug that doesn't let it do its damage unless you crit.

Temple Strike is actually a very good elite and doesn't need a change

Flashing Blades is fine, but mostly PvE elite (just like Glad's Def is fine but has no place in PvP). Also works in RA to some extent.

Beguiling Haze. The daze is kinda short, but it's still actually very good considering you shadowstep too. Energy is truly not that bad.

Shadowform. It's fine, kinda gimmicky but it does what it should do well. Can't buff it without seeing some serious abuse.

Shadow Shroud. Fine, and actually an extremely good elite that i'm surprised vanished from the metagame. It's the single best assist to Shadow Prison spikes imo (Shadow Shroud just before Shadow Prison hits so that it's covered and they can't enchant the target afterwards) and any /A (like Me/A!) can run it well at like 6 Shadow Arts. Not really good on a sin primary, but meh.

Aura of Displacement. Fine, it'd be too good if buffed imo. It's already a very solid skill overall

Elites that could use a minor tweak to be good:

Dark Apostacy would be very good if they just lowered the cast time to 1s.

Fox's Promise needs to lose the 'fail if doesn't hit' condition when Expose Defenses exists

Palm Strike should go down to 6-8s recharge

Golden Skull Strike needs to daze unconditionally and deal some significant +damage if you're enchanted

Assassin's Promise - Fine for PvE, but for PvP i'd see it better if recharge goes down to 20-25s. It's not like Assassins have that long cooldown on skills anymore, and with all the low cooldowns it's not worth it to risk screwing up your elite for 45s.

Shroud of Silence - disable spells for 10..5s, 25s recharge. It disables your spells for way too long atm to be worth it, could be interesting with Deadly Paradox if it didn't do that. It should also disable shout and chants, makes sense and those lack counters.

Siphon Strength - +25% critical against all targets (instead of +33% against hexed guy). The effect is very good but you very rarely want to actually combo the guy you just Siphoned Strength. If you plan to kill him, while debuff his offense? Makes no sense

Way of the Empty Palm - seems like there's not much point for that at all right now. I'd say all dagger attack skills are free, not just off-hands and dual. Could be nice with Unsuspecting combos and encourages some lead attack uses.

Hidden Caltrop - 5/.25/5 or 5/.75/8 and remove while moving clause. It's an interesting damage buff to a combo in a hex form, but it's not really working well with its current stats. The cripple isn't really appealing when you can Siphon Speed.

Shadow Meld - 5/.25/12 It just shouldn't have the same stats as AoD at all since it target allies. If it had aggressive stats like this so you can teleport a lot for cheap, then it could be interesting. A sin could use it to go spike assist with different allies by shadowstepping to them all the time.

Elites that need a total rework:

Seeping Wound - imo should deal damage per second instead of degen (something like 2..10 damage per second) so it can stack past 10 degen and i'd like it to cause Weakness for 3s on target every 3s while bleeding or poisoned, adding a constant cover condition for single condition removal. But i don't want a conditional Images of Remorse for an elite.

Mark of Insecurity - stances and enchants can be very easily stripped if you want to make your build designed for it. It just has no point. Not sure what the skill should be like but atm it's a total joke. Add whenever an enchant or stance ends you are knocked down maybe (seems really powerful against RoF but at least it'd have a point then).

Wastrel's Collapse - It just makes no sense. 5s without them using a skill is a total joke and unreliable for a non-elite. Only possible combo is Blackout and there's much better combos with Blackout than Wastrel's Collapse. Not sure what should be done with this, it's a design wreck imo.

I think that those changes would make most of Assassin elites actually useful in certain builds.