Curse

Drewfense · Feb 13, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

In the end shield reqs don't matter. If you suck you will still suck. The difference between req 7 and req 9 is two points in divine. Hardly worth with the current style of monk builds which demand high prot/heal rather than divine.

Regardless, are req 7 shields better than req 8 or 9? I have never seen a req 7 shield with +30 health +10 slashing. 99% of the very few req 7 shields out there have really crappy mods. Higher reqs require a stat split sacrifice, but offer significantly better mods in this situation. Similar to HoD axes though, this is a complaint about something so rare, it is hard to rationalize as important.

Edit: As for other PvE/PvP differences, a lot of very useful focii and icons are only available in PvE, not PvP due to the inscription system (for example, to prevent people making an unprecedented/imbalanced 40% recharge focii they have recharge isolated as an inscription and not focii core). So you can't make +30 20% fast cast heal focii, et cetera. Although it sucks you can't make these weapons, almost every combination is available from merchants very very early in factions or as green items.

Blame the Monks · Feb 13, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

That's not the point -- the point is whether there should to be a difference, however minor, in people who spend more time PvEing. IMO, the answer is clearly no -- if you can't get it in PvP, you shouldn't be able to use it on a PvE toon in PvP.

Byron · Feb 13, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

That's not the point -- the point is whether there should to be a difference, however minor, in people who spend more time PvEing. IMO, the answer is clearly no -- if you can't get it in PvP, you shouldn't be able to use it on a PvE toon in PvP.

Anet is on your side. The selling point for GW PvP has always been skill, not time, IMO.

yesitsrob · Feb 13, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

The selling point for GW PvP has always been skill

While it is true that a monk who has got himself a req 7 tactics shield won't stop sucking if he already does, a good monk with it, vs a monk with a req 9 one will have 8 more armor, yes it's a minor advantage, but it's still an advantage, one that probably shouldn't exist.

Jetdoc · Feb 13, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

if you can't get it in PvP, you shouldn't be able to use it on a PvE toon in PvP.

Exactly - but arguing...

"if you can't get it in PvP, you shouldn't be able to use it on a PvE toon in PvE"

....is what you'd be arguing if you wanted to completely remove the items from PvE.

I agree with the ideas put forth on "converting" PvE items to req 9 items in PvP...I'm just not sure how A-Net would fix the code (and appearance) to make that happen.

Patccmoi · Feb 13, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Regardless, are req 7 shields better than req 8 or 9? I have never seen a req 7 shield with +30 health +10 slashing. 99% of the very few req 7 shields out there have really crappy mods. Higher reqs require a stat split sacrifice, but offer significantly better mods in this situation. Similar to HoD axes though, this is a complaint about something so rare, it is hard to rationalize as important.

Hrm, all you need is a req 7 drop with inscription slots.

I have a req 7 sharktooth shield (not max though, 13AL) with +30/-2 while enchanted. I just salvaged the mods on other shields and threw them on.

Personally i just got as many low req shields with inscriptions as possible with different perfect mods on them. I can just throw them on PvP chars since shields don't get customized. It's no big deal, but it DOES help casters seriously. Even if they're not perfect, i'll gladly take a req 6 shield with 11AL, +30/-2 while enchanted and throw it on a caster that doesn't use its secondary and can afford to drop 1-2 points somewhere.

But it seems hard for ANet at this point to make much of a change there, unless they allow for PvP chars to make perfect req 8 shields, near perfect req 7, slightly worse req 6, etc. but it wouldn't end...

l Batman l · Feb 14, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Ideally there shouldn't be a difference. The PVP system has come a long way since I started playing and PVE and PVP chars are obviously a lot more on the same level than before. I think Anet is doing a good job with regular updates and if the problem is that big of a deal that they need to change it, they will. But I just don't think it's matters much.

Warskull · Feb 14, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

In the end shield reqs don't matter. If you suck you will still suck. The difference between req 7 and req 9 is two points in divine. Hardly worth with the current style of monk builds which demand high prot/heal rather than divine.

Regardless, are req 7 shields better than req 8 or 9? I have never seen a req 7 shield with +30 health +10 slashing. 99% of the very few req 7 shields out there have really crappy mods. Higher reqs require a stat split sacrifice, but offer significantly better mods in this situation. Similar to HoD axes though, this is a complaint about something so rare, it is hard to rationalize as important.

Edit: As for other PvE/PvP differences, a lot of very useful focii and icons are only available in PvE, not PvP due to the inscription system (for example, to prevent people making an unprecedented/imbalanced 40% recharge focii they have recharge isolated as an inscription and not focii core). So you can't make +30 20% fast cast heal focii, et cetera. Although it sucks you can't make these weapons, almost every combination is available from merchants very very early in factions or as green items.

Previous to nightfall finding a perfect req 7 shield was near impossible. Finding perfect +10 armor/+30 hp shields could be quite difficult too. However, with the new inscription system you only need to find an req 7 nightfall shield with max armor.

The difference isn't in the two points of divine either, it is in the characters going secondary /w or /p to get the shield. 7 is a far easier breakpoint to reach that 9.

Weapon req usually isn't a big deal, but a few select ranger and paragon builds would sacrifice points in marks for points in other places.

I think the big things to fix are giving PvP characters access to slashing daggers (although this is less of an issue now that shields up doesn't affect piercing daggers anymore) and low req focuses and shields.

Patccmoi · Feb 14, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warskull

I think the big things to fix are giving PvP characters access to slashing daggers (although this is less of an issue now that shields up doesn't affect piercing daggers anymore) and low req focuses and shields.

Could add to that Blunt swords, Piercing Axe and Piercing Hammer (i actually found one of those last week, didn't even know they existed. Something like Colossal Pick). It's not big deal either, but more and more skills/armor affect a certain type. For example my sin wears +10 vs physical/+10 vs slashing armor, and lots of monks use +10AL vs slashing shields. And there's Bladeturn Refrain, etc. Being able to switch your Axe from Slashing to Piercing at will can be an advantage. Honestly though if they add all that and it's easily accessible to every1, all the skills like Bladeturn Refrain become totally useless as a warrior facing it would just switch to Piercing Axe or Blunt Sword and wouldn't have any disadvantage at all. Atm you can turn to elemental, but at least there's a drawback to that (lose Vamp or Zealous and target might have high AL vs Elemental, like Rangers).

Alleji · Feb 14, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

I think the issue is pretty minor, especially compared to the differences we had before (armor swaps, etc) but I agree that the best way to fix it would be to set all item reqs to 9 while in a PvP arena/outpost.

Ensign · Feb 14, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

As far as I know req 7, max stuff doesn't drop in Nightfall, and even req 8 stuff is fairly rare. The good req 7 shields are all pre-Nighfall, multi-million items. Yes, they do exist, and are used in PvP. It is an item imbalance, probably the most significant one that still exists. Shield collection was the most important part of PvE loot pre-J menu, and still is due to req requirements.

Peace,
-CxE

Thomas.knbk · Feb 14, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Actually it's quite flattering to the balancers of this game that we see this as an unbalance.

Makkert · Feb 14, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Top of my head:

1. Pet variations. dire, hearthy, elder.
I do expect this some time in the future, because it makes no sense this is limited to pve...
2. low req stuff.
3. double vamp weapon (does the /stuck command work sufficiently? I haven't been trapped on a maplocation in a while...)
4. weapondamage variations (sword: slashing and blunt (Jitte); axe: slashing and piercing (pick axe))
5. the almost legedary no-negative 15% weapons

I hope to see 1 & 4 to be implemented some time in the future. 2,3 & 5 are really minor niche stuff and/or little remains of a screw up in the past. A 'no negative' weapon isn't going to win your match alone....

The list is getting shorter and shorter with time. It has come a long way already....

Patccmoi · Feb 14, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

I think the issue is pretty minor, especially compared to the differences we had before (armor swaps, etc) but I agree that the best way to fix it would be to set all item reqs to 9 while in a PvP arena/outpost.

That's not something i thought about but it seems by far the best way to actually settle this problem (which i agree is overall minor).

Just making it that requirements are all ignored on items in PvP and treated as req 9, no matter what it was before (so a req 12 is considered as a req 9 as much as a req 7) would be overall quite simple to implement and settle any kind of imbalance low req items can do.

Zui · Feb 15, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44832

Made me lol. (+55 health shield gogo!)

Thomas.knbk · Feb 15, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

is that fo real? a +55hp shield would own.

Melody Cross · Feb 15, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

I hate the J panel. I use it often but hate it all the same. My favorite character of all time was my RP monk. More than any other playable character in any other game, I like Melody the best.

I saw building her up to PvP ready status a challenge, not a hindrance. I guess I am old fashioned, but I never believed you get something for nothing (and if you did, you wouldn’t want it).

And I’m not alone. Other members of my guild and my friends list disliked the advantages PvP players received with this update (and if you think PvP characters don’t have an advantage, you’ve never farmed for more than a green). It was the end-game content for us; something to strive for and prove excellence in. Titles mean nothing to me.

For me, the J panel was a slap in the face. It said “you did all that work, now it means absolutely nothing, lol”. But Anet agreed with the PvP only community and gave them what constitutes godhood in terms of weapon combos.

If you think req 7-8 weapons and foci are unfair, I’m sure Anet will give you them too, or take them away from me. But you’ll never connect with your characters. They will never have a sense of value or be a source of pride for your accomplishment and a reward for your effort. In my opinion, Guild Wars became something less with the J panel; not more or better. Its the single biggest mistake they ever made, devaluing the efforts of the players (PvEvPers) they helped to create.

That’s just how I feel. Flame on...

TheOneMephisto · Feb 15, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Morgahn#Armor

General Morgahn starts with maxed Kournan armor at armor rating 80. His headgear is a Kournan Regalia. He comes with a Suntouched Spear (14-25 dmg, 10% dmg when health is above 50%) and a Heraldic Shield (armor 16, health +25, requiring 9 Command).

Note: I don't know if the +25 on the shield is a mod or inherent, but someone who PvEs could find out?

And to Melody, what about us pure PvPers who absolutely cannot stand PvE and who don't really care about "bonding with characters"? I for one don't have a single PvE character anymore, and I don't want to have to do it. I find PvE to be more boring than anything else, and I hate being forced to do it. However, just because I don't like PvE should I be at a disadvantage?

Skuld · Feb 15, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

NURF

JoeKnowMo · Feb 15, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

I mostly pve, nevertheless, I'm all in favor of balance in pvp. I shouldn't have an unfair advantage in pvp just cuz I farm more or have more gold.

Italics mine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Top of my head:

1. Pet variations. dire, hearthy, elder.
Yes. Would like to see this.
I would also like to see 3 pet choices for slashing, piercing, and blunt dmg.

2. low req stuff.
One solution might be to allow for creation of req 8 and req 7 items (fully inscribable and moddable) but lower the high end stats by 1. So a req 8 shield would have 15 armor, req 7 would be 14 armor, req 8 sword would be 15-21, and so on. Yes, someone with a perfect req 7 or 8 would still have a slight advantage.

4. weapondamage variations (sword: slashing and blunt (Jitte); axe: slashing and piercing (pick axe))
There's even a piercing dmg hammer in pve, so I'm for this option being available.

5. the almost legedary no-negative 15% weapons
Maybe nerf the ones in existence? Would make a lot of ppl cry tho.