Curse

TheOneMephisto · Feb 15, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

1) Divine plays Ha quite a bit.

2) Holding was flawed. It encouraged people to play with sub-par builds designed entirely to interrupt another ghostly and heal your ghostly. It took the skill out of adapting, kiting, bring efficient with heals (efficiency is overrated with unlimited energy), and a lot more out of the game.

B Ephekt · Feb 15, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Silver Star

As for saying, well if you are the infuser and you come up againt a Rit Spike, and your prot is dead because its killcount or something i look forward to seeing you get crushed by their spike without Mantra, because me myself would not run mantra however it could be very usefull as for saying it is garbage you are the one talking it.

Mantra of Lightning is a garbage skill. Even at 10 Inspiration it's a reduction of 44%, so it only reduces the ~1400 damage from rit spike down to about 800 damage, which is still more than enough to kill. Furthermore, if you have any bit of common sense you'd be running 2 prot monks and an infuser, so being down one monk shouldn't mean much.

Mantra of flame was also always garbage, most players were just too bad to realize it.

I agree that the channeling comment was stupid, however. Channeling was obviously more beneficial in a meta that included iway, melee pressure builds and alter holding; however, Channeling can still return more energy than Power Drain if used correctly. In the current meta, I'd say both are on somewhat equal grounds and the choice is more about player preference, though. Personally, I'd choose PDrain for an infuser and leave Channeling on the other monks.

Divineshadows · Feb 16, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Mantra of Lightning is a garbage skill. Even at 10 Inspiration it's a reduction of 44%, so it only reduces the ~1400 damage from rit spike down to about 800 damage, which is still more than enough to kill. Furthermore, if you have any bit of common sense you'd be running 2 prot monks and an infuser, so being down one monk shouldn't mean much.

My feelings exactly. Damage reduction is an effective way to deal with spikes that are not armor ignoring. Mantra of lightning is just so inefficient in doing this though. First it requires a skill slot on both monks. Next, it requires attribute points. Last, it affects only the player using it so the rest of the team is left high and dry.

Each player can get quite a bit of reduction with a +10 AL v lightning shield (or whatever damage type your opposition chose to overload on), +8 AL from the shield itself, and +7 armor with a warding mod for a total of +25 AL. This is free damage reduction (no skill slots or attributes used) that most HA players don't even bother to use or think about. I like to stack it with watch yourself from a warrior with 14 weapon mastery and 13 tactics for another +22 armor for the whole team. This sums to +47 AL which is about a 55% damage reduction.

How do you figure that rit spike does 1400 damage though on its spike? I compute 744 damage for 6 spikers with gaze from beyond at 16 channeling and 868 damage for 7 spikers at 16 channeling. Spirit burn I consider a very powerful after spike skill that they use but it comes 1.75 seconds later. You must have computed 6x gaze + 6x spirit burn which is 1404 damage to 60 AL at 16 channeling. Still at 107 AL, that's only 630 damage which is not enough to kill anyone with 10% morale boost (or any morale boost at all for that matter). One thing to keep in mind when buffing everyone's armor like this against a team that relies only on elemental damage, spirit bond becomes useless except for filling gaps when watch yourself is down and the efficiency of shield of absorption goes way up.

B Ephekt · Feb 16, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

The 1400 damage, like you figured out on your own, came from a Gaze->Burn or Gaze->Lamentation spike on a 60 AL target.

sp3ct3r · Feb 16, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

1) Divine plays Ha quite a bit.

2) Holding was flawed. It encouraged people to play with sub-par builds designed entirely to interrupt another ghostly and heal your ghostly. It took the skill out of adapting, kiting, bring efficient with heals (efficiency is overrated with unlimited energy), and a lot more out of the game.

Why is it that holding was flawed? all the arguments you gave regarding that are based on a metagame that was introduced in nightfall with the arrival of paragons and 6v6 at same time... I bet that there is no way that the paragon-holding builds would have done so well if HA stayed 8v8 with the long (10 minutes) duration it used to be... Also, the introduction of song of concentration made it so that interrupts became virtually useless in "holding" builds... so this sums it up: your arguments are flawed, not holding...

Now what can ANET do to clean up this mess?

First, remove kill counts from broken tower and courtyard.
Second, make courtyard altar cap'n hold maps again, (5 sec cap) nerfing song of concentration so it doesn't affect ghostly hero anymore.
Third, keep the 8v8 mode so that ppl can come up with builds to counter for the ever evolving metagame and to accomodate for all the skills necessary for all the different game types you encounter in HA.

Deleet · Feb 16, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

You know, that's more than enough time for an infuse to hit. Besides, you should run at least a +10 vs. lightning and perhaps a +5AL weapon. That takes a lot of damage out, since it's not armor penaltrating.

ToxicWasted · Feb 16, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by sp3ct3r

Why is it that holding was flawed? all the arguments you gave regarding that are based on a metagame that was introduced in nightfall with the arrival of paragons and 6v6 at same time... I bet that there is no way that the paragon-holding builds would have done so well if HA stayed 8v8 with the long (10 minutes) duration it used to be... Also, the introduction of song of concentration made it so that interrupts became virtually useless in "holding" builds... so this sums it up: your arguments are flawed, not holding...

Now what can ANET do to clean up this mess?

First, remove kill counts from broken tower and courtyard.
Second, make courtyard altar cap'n hold maps again, (5 sec cap) nerfing song of concentration so it doesn't affect ghostly hero anymore.
Third, keep the 8v8 mode so that ppl can come up with builds to counter for the ever evolving metagame and to accomodate for all the skills necessary for all the different game types you encounter in HA.

Holding was totally flawed, it was before SoC and it was after SoC. The main thing that made holding "flawed", as will happen to any type if it's the ONLY thing, is that people will be building their teams to do that and ONLY that. On Altar this were the "holding" teams and on Killcount these are the spikes. This is what makes me a big fan of the new changing objectives. For that matter, I think Anet should restore killcount in Halls but ALSO old-school capping the altar. This would make most spikes unable to be winning in Halls really long (Cause most spikes can't really hold) and true holding builds would never win a kill count.

LifesRestorer · Feb 16, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

SoC doesnt need to be changed.
Altar holding should come back, in Halls and in Broken Tower and Courtyard.
Kill count should be buried 100ft below the surface.
Rotation in halls should remain.

ksalanpang · Feb 16, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Really not sure about the kill count. That discouraged me from pugging. Alter holding is something unique in HA, gotta have that...

i'm raging it sorta..

llsektorll · Feb 16, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

want kill count back because it just turns into one of two things which is rather boring ... i like having a surprise... and besides its no fun that I can't own rit spike anymore..

Randomway Ftw · Feb 16, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToxicWasted

Holding was totally flawed, it was before SoC and it was after SoC. The main thing that made holding "flawed", as will happen to any type if it's the ONLY thing, is that people will be building their teams to do that and ONLY that. On Altar this were the "holding" teams and on Killcount these are the spikes. This is what makes me a big fan of the new changing objectives. For that matter, I think Anet should restore killcount in Halls but ALSO old-school capping the altar. This would make most spikes unable to be winning in Halls really long (Cause most spikes can't really hold) and true holding builds would never win a kill count.

Wow, most people built their builds with enough damage and utility for all maps, the fact that some fotms that ppl bitched about being defensive were actualy taking more offense and less defense/support as time went on (eg 7 spiker bspike and 5 spiker bspike).

Nadia Roark · Feb 16, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

I don't think I'd mind a kill count on a map--Broken Tower should definately be reverted to a holding map but I wouldn't mind a killing spree on Courtyard, or maybe even in the Halls rotation. For the life of me I cannot begin to understand why Kill Count was eliminated from Halls alone--if it needs to be removed from any map it's Broken Tower, hands down.

In my opinion the game format that really needs to die a violent death is capture points. If I wanted to play capture points I'd go AB, and there's a reason that I don't: because it sucks. Capture point games are invariably wild, haphazard matches with little more strategy than "Run over here! OK now run over there! Stand there for a minute! Bring the Ghost!" etc. The improved Murderball is a bit more interesting than the old one, and I do kind of like the idea of alternating victory conditions in Halls.

On a completely different note I would like to make a point that's been gnawing at my brain for some time now regarding the deteriorating HA community: I'm willing to grant that the gameplay changes drove a lot of people out, but the real reason that community is declining is because neither Factions or NF endgame areas are favor based. I was surprised at how ANet handled the access for endgame areas in Factions/NF: I was under the impression that endgame areas (FoW, DoA, Urgoz/Deep) would always be favor-based, and in my opinion they ought to be. God knows that favor-based FoW was the reason I started HAing: I can't speak for the rest of you of course, but my decision to start playing HA was directly based on Europe always maintaining favor while I was awake.

Simply put, without favor-based endgame areas, PvE players have no real reason to make the jump to HA.

master_of_puppets · Feb 16, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

the real reason that community is declining is because neither Factions or NF endgame areas are favor based

thats just completely ridiculous

Nadia Roark · Feb 16, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I think my favorite part about your post was your amazing discourse as to why.

I took the time to explain my viewpoint, and if you expect to be taken seriously the least you could do would be to follow suit. If not, GTFO pl0x.

master_of_puppets · Feb 16, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Suggesting that having less relevence in PvE is whats killing, and not just killing but the main reason as to why a PvP area is dieing is just total nonsense. Pve players have no real reason to get into HA? Is being bored of whacking brainless NPC's to death and wanting to do something that actually takes some skill for a change not a "real" reason? I know that I sure as hell didnt make the jump from PvE to HA because of what favor does in PvE. Not to mention lots of ppl still do the Prophs areas UW/FoW havent been there in forever but I still quite sure lots of ppl still farm that crap.

Seriously how many people do you know that play HA that do so to try to get favor so they can right after go and farm FoW or w/e crap?

6v6, heroway, and now kill count are what killed HA, with a little bit of never ever seeing new maps too.

Vermilion · Feb 17, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

Seriously how many people do you know that play HA that do so to try to get favor so they can right after go and farm FoW or w/e crap?

Lawl I completely forgot that HA was connected to favor. -.-

Nadia Roark · Feb 17, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

Suggesting that having less relevence in PvE is whats killing, and not just killing but the main reason as to why a PvP area is dieing is just total nonsense. Pve players have no real reason to get into HA? Is being bored of whacking brainless NPC's to death and wanting to do something that actually takes some skill for a change not a "real" reason? I know that I sure as hell didnt make the jump from PvE to HA because of what favor does in PvE. Not to mention lots of ppl still do the Prophs areas UW/FoW havent been there in forever but I still quite sure lots of ppl still farm that crap.

Seriously how many people do you know that play HA that do so to try to get favor so they can right after go and farm FoW or w/e crap?

6v6, heroway, and now kill count are what killed HA, with a little bit of never ever seeing new maps too.

I think you completely missed the point. Just like a politician you've taken one snippet of my statement entirely out of context and you've quoted it as if it were the "staple" of my opinion.

I'm not saying Favor Based DoA/Elite missions is the sole cause of the slow HA community destruction, nor am I suggesting that switching them to Favor Based areas would solve all of HA's problems. What I'm saying is that the players who were driven out of HA are not being replaced because PvE players no longer have a reason to make the journey to HA. The whole point of favor-based FoW/UW was to encourage PvE players to get involved with HA. That impetus no longer exists.

Think it's ridiculous all you want, but its the truth.

lilnate22 · Feb 17, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

i can careless bout anything else..but 8v8 needs to stay
6v6 was garbage

Malibu Illusion · Feb 17, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I think you completely missed the point. Just like a politician you've taken one snippet of my statement entirely out of context and you've quoted it as if it were the "staple" of my opinion.

I'm not saying Favor Based DoA/Elite missions is the sole cause of the slow HA community destruction, nor am I suggesting that switching them to Favor Based areas would solve all of HA's problems. What I'm saying is that the players who were driven out of HA are not being replaced because PvE players no longer have a reason to make the journey to HA. The whole point of favor-based FoW/UW was to encourage PvE players to get involved with HA. That impetus no longer exists.

Think it's ridiculous all you want, but its the truth.

I agree on most of that you've said so far regarding gameplay in HA, both written here and from your in-game conversations about HA in Int 1 lobby, but not this.

The favor system being absent from the aforementioned end-game areas is so insignificant to the state of HA right now that it's definitely moot point. My friends, my guildies and anyone else I've met in HA would be there regardless of the favor system and access to UW/FoW; the majority of people I know couldn't care less whether they're able to access those areas to begin with. The same would be true if DoA/Urgoz etc. were governed by the same concept. If you started playing HA because you wanted access, well, you're in a small minority as far as I'm able to tell.

Would it give PvE players a reason to think about getting into PvP? Yes. In many cases, it would end at just that, though; a thought. You're either interested in PvP or you're not, in my opinion. Granting PvE rewards (i.e. access) for PvP achievements (winning Halls) hasn't worked in other games I've played, and doesn't work in this one either. All it seems to accomplish is making people bitter and pissing them off more, truth be told.

The favor system is fundamentally flawed and requires revision; this may be another topic for a different thread, though.

Death_From_Above · Feb 18, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

You may think holding was a flawed objective, but I don't, and many people agree with me, the fact is that every change ANET makes screws up HA more, and people rage quit the game. Your comments are the equivalent of WoW players coming to Guild Wars forums and saying how much it sucks, or vice versa.

There are two things you can believe, the first is that pre-6v6 HA was filled with people running holding builds holding builds, and ANET fixed it by changing the objective of halls, and people flocked back to HA in large numbers, or that people came back to HA to test out the new 8v8 but then ragequit after realizing that ANET had destroyed the game mode with unnecessary changes.

The fact is that people who didn't play HA should not be dictating where it goes.

Oh my days Randomway your so elite, i believe the views you hold concering HA are the ones which anet should be working on because so far every point iv seen on yours concerning HA is what the vast majority of HA (experianced 1s including myself and many friends) have to exactly word for word i dont think i could have solved it any better myself. In fact ever one of my friends said the same thing as you. People came on for 8v8, like 12 districts when it came out or 13 cant remember which. Also my friends list was packed once again. The as time went on and day went by day. people realised Anet ( an im sorry to say this) did a sucky job with tombs and it still sucks as they havent given us what we wanted which is how ha was originaly, so day by day people go ahhh they still made tombs suck so im not gonna bother come on. And this continued till 3 districts on average left in tombs now. gg ANET. i really just dont see what the problem is, just change tombs to how it originaly was and swallow your pride. the fact youve taken so long to even fix tombs is beyond me. In fact my guild for example is quite frankly done for now because after this stunt by anet 3 members of guild said bah, we've had enough were quiting gw cos this is now rediculous.

So i guess they wont be buying gws next campaign. Now there gvgers and pvpers but there not mad about gvg as its to time consuming, you often find in guild people come on 2 ha then when we find we have enough we gvg or we set a time an gvg. But no one can be botherd to purposely come on for gvg for it was tombs they came on for so now runnin a gvg in guild is hard. Iv asked around and many quite core pvp guilds are having this problem too. Many of my pvper friends have to said they wont be buyin next campaign unless tombs is fixed up properly and quick. Its almost as if ANET are shooting themselves in the foot over and over and over.

Seriously can someone please inform me what is so hard with just reverting 8v8 back to its original state for a weekend and see how that goes. Many people are now getting fed up and if anet arnt careful, Guildwars the game which they promised would be mainly pvp based when it came out and it entertained many and kerpt many memebers, is just going to become no different to any other online pve game and lose many many more members. I just dont understand why there making so much work for themselves and refuse to give the people what they want.