Curse

Horace The Great · Feb 13, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

A very good holding team can be beated, they still have 16 people against them.

Tiyuri · Feb 13, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

????

Does the name Power Of My Rangers ring a bell, or many others from that time?

In the old system (holding altars with 8v8) holding builds were definately a problem. You knew when you were facing one if the warrior was using wards and wanding you to build up adreneline.

Whenever rank 11s and rank 12s play it's usually for massive holding, it's the only way they can get enough fame to up their emote. And call me mad but I think it was considerably easier in the 8v8 holding age. I know a few who got their rank 12 around that time, I know few who got rank 12 after the change to 6v6 and kill-count.

Are you rank 11 or 12? How would you know?

Power of my rangers held with blood spike and rangerspike, those builds were overpowered, once they were nerfed he held nowhere near as long, only winning halls occasionally. Towards the end of 8v8 no one held because there were no real viable holding builds vs all the pressure builds people were running so people moved to interrupts, which no longer work because of song concentration.

Stop quoting the name of players from back when there were overpowered skills being abused in the meta as if that's an argument. I'm not even supporting old holding mechanics, or new kill count mechanics, but know what you're talking about before you speak.

LifesRestorer · Feb 13, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Like many others have stated, Kill counts have been a big mistake in 8v8 HA. It promotes spiking too much, completely takes out pressure hex/degen teams and eliminates the ultility character to make room for more damage.

People used to whine about spike teams/iway, but there were always ways to counter FoTM or gimmick builds. Also remember that these gimmick builds always had a disadvantage before. for example, Spike teams lacked the ability to keep altars if their ghost went down and they could also be shut down by the utility slot that was reserved for interrupts, as it was a useful feat in terms of keeping an altar or shutting down something that made your team alot weaker than usual.

Now the utility can't play anymore. seeing as the 3rd map is an all out bloodball, power = kills = points. no matter how hard you try, that one utility character doesn't have the ability to shut down 2 teams at the same time, resulting in the loss of their team.

People whined before about the uber defensive teams that couldnt have a ghost taken down, and then if it was finally taken down there would be 3 interrupters resulting in an impossible cap for the other two teams.
Just remember now that Nightfall is in play. there is alot more damage being put through the dervish and paragons, and song of contcentration makes it harder to keep altar control if your ghost goes down because you have one more target to interrupt.

That being said, i think HA should change back to the old 8v8 in all it's glory. give Nightfall a try in this arena. If not, at least drop this hideous kill count which eliminates any chance of creativity in forms of pressure or even balanced.

-Lifes

Death_From_Above · Feb 13, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

lol power of my rangers, yes i remeber him. Infact i kicked him out of halls on a few occasions. Difficult but fun, had to impliment some awsome tatics there. Once again this shows holding builds? Ye they can hold but not unbeatable. the whole of tombs shouldnt be changed just so that some players who are good wont be able to play so well they should be rewarded for it. Blood spike 8 monk teams. iv thought them all and ye as i said sometimes there hard but not unbeatable. just need 2 be lucky regardin wat build ur running or impliment loadsa skill to overcome. In HA for example weather you a holding build or not. If youve got to teams very experianced fighting you your gonna have problems

Death_From_Above · Feb 13, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

once 8v8 has been tested as you said in its original state which kept us entertained for years and it doesnt work (which im very sure it will) then i will say gg gw you where right halls is broken since u tampered with it. Untill then ill stick the mind set i currently have that do a skill update get rid of kill count by putting tombs back to how it was before with alter cape an gg tombs is fixed

Franco Power · Feb 13, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

????

[b[Does the name Power Of My Rangers ring a bell, or many others from that time?[/b]

In the old system (holding altars with 8v8) holding builds were definately a problem. You knew when you were facing one if the warrior was using wards and wanding you to build up adreneline.

Whenever rank 11s and rank 12s play it's usually for massive holding, it's the only way they can get enough fame to up their emote. And call me mad but I think it was considerably easier in the 8v8 holding age. I know a few who got their rank 12 around that time, I know few who got rank 12 after the change to 6v6 and kill-count.

First off, Powers is a great tombs player not just a random scrub who ran fotm and could hold because of the fotm, I can assure you that guy knows tactics and what to do, so I don't get your point. Second, What's so wrong with holding? In some of your posts you seem to be against holding, I don't get that, Yes I used to do 300+ fame runs, what's wrong with that? Now Holding halls is based around luck because of that stupid kill count crap, seriously, if a 16 players cant beat 8, then obviously they fail and the fame those 8 got is well earned. I hope they make HA Tombs of the Primeval Kings again ,seriously this is retarded, every team I face is Rit spike, I rather face a r15+ balanced team (sarcasm on the r15) and get rolled under 3 minuts then face a Rit spike and win at this point, atleast I'm fighting against something either then spike teams.

What exactly do you call 8v8 holding age? Sissy boys, Marvelous Superheroes,etc age? mmm... I don't get your point honestly, kill count is unbalanced and retarded, like one of the screenshots Tyuri showed where one team clearly ganked his team because they knew they were good so they could have a chance, altar holding is 100x better then this, if you cap a altar it's your responsability to hold it and you know you're going to have 2 teams fighting you, now kill count is retarded scrub fest, no coordination at all, just spikes and aoe.

Hey, I'm giving up on HA anyway, gvg ftw, peace~ whatever you think is best, holding or kill count, everyone is entilted to their opinions I suppose.

ToxicWasted · Feb 13, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

I'm getting pissed off of this RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing 8v8, I'm getting dam sick of all spikes. I used to like it though, but things get boring when you can't do anything else..

FoxBat · Feb 13, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum

First off, Powers is a great tombs player not just a random scrub who ran fotm and could hold because of the fotm, I can assure you that guy knows tactics and what to do, so I don't get your point. Second, What's so wrong with holding? In some of your posts you seem to be against holding, I don't get that.

Kill count has issues, but any PvP where the objective is simply to not die, is pretty boring when you bring 90% of your team as defense. Even more boring to play against than to run.

It also goes to show that good players knew that at the time, the almighty balanced wasn't the best way to hold, gimmicky defensive spike crap was. Only marginally worse than modern kill-count gimmicky offensive spike crap I'll admit.

Franco Power · Feb 13, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Kill count has issues, but any PvP where the objective is simply to not die, is pretty boring when you bring 90% of your team as defense. Even more boring to play against than to run.

It also goes to show that good players knew that at the time, the almighty balanced wasn't the best way to hold, gimmicky defensive spike crap was. Only marginally worse than modern kill-count gimmicky offensive spike crap I'll admit.

And facing Rit spike or Icy veins spike every and literally every single f*kin match is not boring?

Besides Holding is much more fun, the excitment of keeping your ghostly alive against 2 teams and at the end of the match seeing a 40 fame win, beats all.

I Thrill I · Feb 13, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

First of all: I like 8v8 much better than 6v6.

8v8 just leaves more room for creativity. That's a fact. There have been FOTM builds in 6v6 and there are FOTM builds in 8v8...theres nothing you can do about it. FOTM build will always pop up in HA, doesnt matter if its 8v8 or 6v6! 8v8 is attractive for IWAY and B-Spike players and 6v6 is attractive for Spiritway and Zergway players! Though it is much harder to kill any FOTM build with a balanced build in 6v6 than it was in 8v8!

People complain there are spikes (most notably Rit Spikes) "owning" HA.
Spikes are just so common because thats more or less one of the very few builds you can actually run if you wanna get past any kill count map! You wont get far in HA with any degen build! Im sure with normal altar capping youll see more and more degen builds in HA. That doesnt have anything to do with the team size! About Rit Spikes...just try to get most their spirits down (or dont even let them get that many up) and pressure them a bit and it shouldnt be that much of a problem since theyll be busy healing each other. Rit Spike IS powerful...but once again it is NOT impossible to beat!

IMO just make Broken/Courtyard/Halls normal altar capping maps and reduce the time to 4 mins.
8v8 > 6v6

Vermilion · Feb 13, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Thrill I

IMO just make Broken/Courtyard/Halls normal altar capping maps and reduce the time to 4 mins.
8v8 > 6v6

Yeah this is the solution I want. I do think HoH needs some way to vary the win conditions. Im not sure if the spike builds being run atm are overpowered, but some channeling skills do need to be changed just because they're retarded good. With changes to the kill count maps, it will be possible to be successful running builds that aren't spike. (Granted most spike builds are easier to set up when pugging, and will beat a pug balanced often)

Franco Power · Feb 13, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Same, Thrill, I want old tombs and pretty much everyone I know does too.

FFS Anet is it to hard to give people what they want, how is it unbalanced, jesus christ, What do you prefeur, all high ranks sell their accounts on ebay or you make HA good again? GFG

Bastian · Feb 13, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I wouldn't mind seeing broken tower and courtyard changed back to normal altar capping/holding. Broken Tower 1v1 and Courtyard 1v1v1. I do like the changes to Hall of Heroes however. That change alone should keep people from bringing big defensive builds, and gives teams more of a reason to bring balanced/support roles or skills. Just my opinion. No matter what 8v8 is ftw.

Franco Power · Feb 13, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

huh, You mean't broken tower 1v1v1 too right?

Because 1v1 holding is just a run to see who can cap first specially now with Song of concentration and Ward of Stability.
Broken Tower and Courtyard were fine as it is, in fact all maps were fine, heck Scarred Earth wasn't that bad, but maybe move it to the last map or before Sacred Temples, since most times doing Scarred for 1 fame was a pain.

Divineshadows · Feb 13, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Power

First off, Powers is a great tombs player not just a random scrub who ran fotm and could hold because of the fotm, I can assure you that guy knows tactics and what to do, so I don't get your point.

This is exactly the type of player that typifies what is wrong with HA players. He's rank 12 now (I think) and feels that using 4 skills (gale, bestial mauling, charm animal, comfort animal) to achieve dazed on a monk is efficient and good for winning matches. He honestly believes that "good" teams in HA use restore condition as their only condition removal skill in an entire 8 man build so that if you can perma-daze their prot monk you can proceed to just beat down the other monks in their build using a condition heavy build. This is how a tombs scrub thinks. Even a year ago, only bad teams ran builds that had a single condition removal skill.

Tombs scrubs think that skills like orison are good or that the healing line is a good line in general (i.e. not just a few select skills). Tombs scrubs still think that running channeling is the way to go for monks despite 3-way kill count maps and the new HA meta actively deterring this. Because of their misconceptions about the power of the healing line, tombs scrubs think that a bar with migraine, conjure phantasm, and a bunch of mesmer interrupts is a good bar for shutdown. Because of their misconception about the power of the healing line, tombs scrubs think that choking gas is a good skill. Tombs scrubs think that 3 monk backlines are good in 8v8 even under the new victory conditions. If HA stays 8v8 with these victory conditions of killing instead of holding (and I hope it does), then eventually after a couple months or more the scrub will get beaten out of some of the current tombs scrubs and what will be left is an actual quality player that GvG guilds will want on their team.

Franco Power · Feb 13, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

kekeke, I ran that Gale + beastial mauling thing, well actually, it was Lucky ftw who was running it but we were all in the same group, and that gale got us our relic run victory btw, I didn't say Powers was good at making builds, if you read what I said, I said he knows very good tactics and what to do. Who cares what build you got if you don't know how to run it.

Bastian · Feb 13, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum

huh, You mean't broken tower 1v1v1 too right?

Because 1v1 holding is just a run to see who can cap first specially now with Song of concentration and Ward of Stability.
Broken Tower and Courtyard were fine as it is, in fact all maps were fine, heck Scarred Earth wasn't that bad, but maybe move it to the last map or before Sacred Temples, since most times doing Scarred for 1 fame was a pain.

Sure. I agree 1v1v1 would be better as per your argument above. I was just thinking about what things were like before teh change to 6v6.

lishi · Feb 14, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

This is exactly the type of player that typifies what is wrong with HA players. He's rank 12 now (I think) and feels that using 4 skills (gale, bestial mauling, charm animal, comfort animal) to achieve dazed on a monk is efficient and good for winning matches. He honestly believes that "good" teams in HA use restore condition as their only condition removal skill in an entire 8 man build so that if you can perma-daze their prot monk you can proceed to just beat down the other monks in their build using a condition heavy build. This is how a tombs scrub thinks. Even a year ago, only bad teams ran builds that had a single condition removal skill.

Tombs scrubs think that skills like orison are good or that the healing line is a good line in general (i.e. not just a few select skills). Tombs scrubs still think that running channeling is the way to go for monks despite 3-way kill count maps and the new HA meta actively deterring this. Because of their misconceptions about the power of the healing line, tombs scrubs think that a bar with migraine, conjure phantasm, and a bunch of mesmer interrupts is a good bar for shutdown. Because of their misconception about the power of the healing line, tombs scrubs think that choking gas is a good skill. Tombs scrubs think that 3 monk backlines are good in 8v8 even under the new victory conditions. If HA stays 8v8 with these victory conditions of killing instead of holding (and I hope it does), then eventually after a couple months or more the scrub will get beaten out of some of the current tombs scrubs and what will be left is an actual quality player that GvG guilds will want on their team.

actually you don't have to beat good team to win HoH.

95% of team you used to face got only rc as condition removal.

even most of high ranked team runned only rc as condition removal -_-.

when i was pugging as prot monk i given up trying to convice someone to take another condition removal and taken mend aiment myself even if wasn't the best idea.

about the healing line thing meh. its not good as prot , but you still need some because you can't prot everthing eventually you will have to heal something.

Warskull · Feb 14, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

This is exactly the type of player that typifies what is wrong with HA players. He's rank 12 now (I think) and feels that using 4 skills (gale, bestial mauling, charm animal, comfort animal) to achieve dazed on a monk is efficient and good for winning matches. He honestly believes that "good" teams in HA use restore condition as their only condition removal skill in an entire 8 man build so that if you can perma-daze their prot monk you can proceed to just beat down the other monks in their build using a condition heavy build. This is how a tombs scrub thinks. Even a year ago, only bad teams ran builds that had a single condition removal skill.

Tombs scrubs think that skills like orison are good or that the healing line is a good line in general (i.e. not just a few select skills). Tombs scrubs still think that running channeling is the way to go for monks despite 3-way kill count maps and the new HA meta actively deterring this. Because of their misconceptions about the power of the healing line, tombs scrubs think that a bar with migraine, conjure phantasm, and a bunch of mesmer interrupts is a good bar for shutdown. Because of their misconception about the power of the healing line, tombs scrubs think that choking gas is a good skill. Tombs scrubs think that 3 monk backlines are good in 8v8 even under the new victory conditions. If HA stays 8v8 with these victory conditions of killing instead of holding (and I hope it does), then eventually after a couple months or more the scrub will get beaten out of some of the current tombs scrubs and what will be left is an actual quality player that GvG guilds will want on their team.

This summarizes tombs fairly well.

Lorekeeper · Feb 14, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warskull

This summarizes tombs fairly well.

actually all that post was... was a nicely written example of flamebait... categorising an entire pvp community in 2 paragraphs is a fools errand.
He is extrapolating from 1 example of 1 player to then comment on the entire community?

let me continue through the post...

*Tombs scrubs still think that running channeling is the way to go for monks despite 3-way kill count maps and the new HA meta actively deterring this*

I was in HOH running my anti-spike anti-meta build... and you know what allowed me to keep the team alive with my monk? We faced 2 ritualist spikes on kill count... i camped inside one enemy team... put up channeling and spammed spirit bond on the monks and the ghostly hero... hell.. i didnt even bother preprotting i just caught spikes with spirit bond... farming energy off enemy teams with channeling allowed me to do this... NO other nrg management in the game available to a monk primary would have allowed me to spam spirit bond the way i did in that match.

3 way kill count maps if anything... encourage channeling as energy management for monks... with potentially 16 players to farm energy off... the potential energy gains are massive. If you get caught in a large chaotic battle... you will probably be certain of being able to cast 5 nrg spells for free... and trust me... worrying about energy levels in kill count maps is one of the biggest concerns for a monk in a balanced team. Obviously you need to be careful about your positioning... farming energy with channeling is a risky thing to do... but if you are used to doing it and you trust your prot monk you can tank large groups of enemies long enough to fill up your energy bar. And since the meta is leaning so heavily towards lightning damage ritualists... mantra of lightning is such a nice skill to run on a monk backline... the same went for the searing flames meta when nightfall was released... mantra of flame! So now any monk backline can make itself unspikable when it faces rit spikes... and if the rit spike doesnt realise the monks are using this skill... they get huge amounts of energy from the mantras.

There really isnt any reason to run anything but mesmer secondary on a monk with the current meta. The current meta is spike... so the current monk backlines needs to run anti spike bars... this means... infuse... a fast cheap self heal... quick spammable prots... and lots of energy management. There just isnt any other better energy management available. Without channeling... monks would find it impossible to keep up with the rit spikes of the current meta.

Currently i dont run a 3 monk backline... i wont say wat im running... my build basically takes into account the type of dmg thats being inflicted and limits this dmg another way.

*Because of their misconceptions about the power of the healing line, tombs scrubs think that a bar with migraine, conjure phantasm, and a bunch of mesmer interrupts is a good bar for shutdown*

wrong... because of the casting times and dependance on the healing line... tombs players running heavy hex builds KNOW that migraine is a very good bar for shutdown. They dont run migraine because they mistakenly perceive the healing line to be uber powerful... they run it because alot of 3 monk tombs backlines rely heavily on the healing line. Shutdown builds are built to shutdown the builds of enemy teams... if the enemy wants to run heavy melee... we run melee wards and aegis chains... maybe traps... maybe snares... if they want to run heavy casters... we run prots and interrupts and diversions... get it? Its the reliance on the healing line that makes migraine a viable shutdown bar... and only if its included in a heavy hex build.

*Because of their misconception about the power of the healing line, tombs scrubs think that choking gas is a good skill*

choking gas rangers were used for the following reasons

1) they destroy necro spikers who ball up
2) they let the average player interrupt warders quite reliably (since prediction and reflex interrupts are not things the average player does very often

)
3) they were able to continually interrupt ghostly heroes attempting to cap altars

they were not introduced into tombs to interrupt healers... but its not a bad thing that they are quite good at that also... only the best monks in tombs are able to heal when a choking gas ranger is camping them. But the best monks are hard to find so choking gas poses a problem for the majority of monks.

if your prejudice against choking gas rangers is due to your gvg experience... well keep in mind that in gvg you have much more room to kite from them... you can make them extend into your midlines and ask your frontline to spike them out... choking gas rangers also carry next to no utility... so their presence in a gvg build is very difficult to justify. In Tombs... its harder to kite their dmg... its harder to spike them out because everyone tends to be within healing range... and it USED to be a very viable build when tombs was interrupt wars.

*Tombs scrubs think that 3 monk backlines are good in 8v8 even under the new victory conditions*

this is a symptom of their memory of how 8vs8 USED to work... the 8vs8 meta is very young... its taken me a week to move away from the 3 monk backline but ive only done so in reaction to the current meta. My monk backlines will always change in response to the HA meta. You see... the meta in HA is so much more predictable than the GvG meta. Right now... ritualist spikes and other spikes are dominating... so why not build a monk backline that totally counters this dominant build? If the meta turns to more diverse builds... obviously running this one trick pony type of backline would not work... you cant do this in gvg... but in HA its entirely possible... to play the meta against itself.

basically the 8vs8 meta isnt settled yet... if things continue to be spike orientated i expect people to realise that the old 3 monk backline wont work anymore. At the very least... the better teams will be running a new type of backline... and the less ingenious teams will stick to the old formula...

unfortunately... tombs/HA was never a good place to judge a players ability to gvg. A good HA player... might be good at gvg, but you cannot make this judgement based on his HA experience. The only thing you can do is to keep in mind that, in order to become a 'good' HA'er you might possess the gaming ability to 'become' a 'good' gvger too.

It works both ways too... you cant guarantee that a good gvg monk will perform well in a HA environment. However, maybe the fact he/she is a good monk in gvg... opens the possibility that he/she could become a good HA monk.

your post is full of generalisations... thank you for allowing me the chance to respond to them.

Lorekeeper