Curse

Sir Vengence VI · Feb 13, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

8v8 FTW
new kill count, relic stuff FTL
no VoD FLT

Clinically Proven · Feb 13, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Nothing like 8v8 for more varieties...

.. of rit spike.

Byron · Feb 13, 2007, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Even though I really prefer 6v6, since it focuses better on individual skill, there is a very practical reason to not change it back to 8v8: It takes too bloody long to find and maintain 8 people. And everyone has their own opinions, which just means more time doing nothing. Unless you're in a dedicated HA guild (if such a thing is possible), I think 8v8 only means more friends list-bugging and longer waits.

6v6= more teams, more matches, less gimmick nonsense (ie, IWAY) and less time sitting in id1. I hope its here to stay.

tomcruisejr · Feb 13, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by masta_yoda

HA is kind of like the Coke incident i remember. Coke tried to change its formula for a "New" and better taste infact they made it worse(all starting from 6v6). Now they keep trying to patch things up and its not doing any good. Coke eventually went back to the old formula because of people hating the "New" formula. Coke can change, but why not anet?

Old Coke with cocaine = 8vs8 with altar
New Coke = 6vs6
Old formula without cocaine = 8vs8 without altar

it's the same coke story dude.

Zuranthium · Feb 13, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

6v6 before the crazy defensive Nightfall builds > old 8v8 > 6v6 after the boring builds came in > current "The Pussy Galore Story, or: SPIKING, How I Learned to Stick It In My Cooter and LOVE IT" 8v8.

~Z

Dragonious · Feb 13, 2007, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Personally i like 8v8 more since I can actually find an IWAY group to pug when ever I'm bored and can't play a guild build....MY fame bar hasn't moved but 300 fame since after the change to 6v6.

YukiShinzo · Feb 13, 2007, 07:20 AM // 07:20

builds are more fun but after 2 days of testing...HA is sadly once again as it was during 6v6...3 idists and 1v1 halls matches.....whats going on? where are the 8+ dists(aside from opening day) that were projected?

i guess the next step for anet is to test more mechanics?...dont know at this point anymore but anything will help since it cannot get any worse...right?

Wilhelm · Feb 13, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

8 Man is definatly the way to go, but like most people have already said, the new mechanics of altar matches are err kinda goofy and overdone.

Although they are great ideas, match objectives such as capture the flag, king of the hill, kill count are better off in other genres, such as first person shooters imo.

Ajaala · Feb 13, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

6v6= more teams, more matches, less gimmick nonsense (ie, IWAY) and less time sitting in id1. I hope its here to stay.

you're kidding me right? hello, my name is jagged bones way, icy veins spike, rit spike, rspike, zergway, paraway.
Yes theese do still exist in 8v8 but since you have 64 skills in one team now there's easier to beat those teams.

old HA 8v8>6v6. And you can't say "Let HA stay 6 vs 6 and let GVG be the only 8 vs 8 pvp". There are people who used to live in HA and don't like GVG at all.
And besides. I'd rather have to wait for 10 minutes to get a pug in 8 vs 8, than to have no pugs in 6 vs 6.

The Silver Star · Feb 13, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

6v6= more teams, more matches, less gimmick nonsense (ie, IWAY) and less time sitting in id1. I hope its here to stay.

Well it may be jsut me but i am 100% sure that i played againt more 2 thumper, 1 rit, 1n/mo and one 1/nrt with one other team than i ever came across iway for example. And as for more matches there are less matches because of elss players even if teams are smaller, and there are mroe gimmicks jsut because the gimmicks arnt the same doesnt mean there not as bad.

jai311 · Feb 13, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

It is so simple Antet i dunno why dont you understand what people want anyway instead of posting a 5000 word post ill just say what needs to be done .
A New Version of GuildWars is not Available Please Restart Client.
->> www.Guildwars.Com/Updates
Update :
Made 8 vs 8 Permanent.
Kept Kill count in Broken Tower
Made VoD or something to finish in all maps (so teams dont run around forever
Removed Kill Count From CourtYard.
Made Halls as Altar Holding exactly like old days.
Nrefed Rt spikes for more recharge (even tough i get 500 fame a day with it )
Nerfed Song Of Concentration ( back to skilfull days )
Nerfed Paragon Way (yes they are still overpowered.

We all know there will be no holding builds if kep kill count in atleast one map.
There will be total offense team because need balance to Hold Hall of Heros.

No matter what you do please ..PLEASE dont get back to 6 vs 6. I feel like doin RA OR TA in 6 vs 6 . ( Make a new arena for 6 vs 6 or what ever but dont take what we all like for something that minority of the people like .)
you know in the above treads what people want, so why not keep 8 vs 8 ,

luilui · Feb 13, 2007, 11:38 AM // 11:38

much much prefer 8v8, most of them is ok i guess except kill count is fundamentally flawed as it completely removed condition/degen/shut down.

i actually had more fun than in the old altar days.

but please 8v8 is really the way, forget about the whine on spike and iway and whatever. 8v8 remain the most balanced form imo.

masta_yoda · Feb 13, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Anet should take into account that there are more things that contribute to a kill (kill count) then just pure damage. There are many ways damage can be delt and this can be like spirits such as Qz( e-denial will reduce monks healing), Spirits like nr will hurt heavy enchant builds, degen pressure over time this includes hexes and conditions. Interupts would stop heals etc...
Now its just stupid because you can literally take 6 eles and do the most damage with nuking to score kills without thinking about other factors which also contribute to kill count ( not just pure damage).
This kill count system is completely biased and i hope a-net removes it or balances it so it doesnt just have pure damage contributing to the kill but the other factors as i have said.
That being said i like 8v8 and prefer it over 6v6 just that anet has to balance kill count maps

Damus · Feb 13, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Even though I really prefer 6v6, since it focuses better on individual skill, there is a very practical reason to not change it back to 8v8: It takes too bloody long to find and maintain 8 people. And everyone has their own opinions, which just means more time doing nothing.

Whether you have 6v6 or 8v8 you're going to have builds, and people running builds. It's what actually makes HA more accessible to play. There are clear expectations of your role, skillsets, attributes, armor, etc. etc. This is the simple truth. People may complain about builds and that they only "run balanced." Pleeeeze. I've played over 50 matches in 8v8 since Friday and I've seen 2 balanced builds, run by noobs. The whole argument that 6v6 is run by builds is fallacious--when the event started, did everyone roll out their "balanced" builds? No, they all grabbed their crappy old bspike and iway. And these same people complain about 6v6 and how it's all gimicky. The meaning behind "bring the old 8v8 and maps back" is that people just want to run the same stupid iway, bspike, vimway, etc. builds. And you know what, it's ok. It's just nostalgia, and that's totally understandable. People tend to only remember the good parts about the past, not the bad parts. I just wish people would realize that it's just nostalgia and nothing else. Denial ftl.

Speaking of bad parts--getting an 8v8 group together, build worked out, skills bought/farmed, spikes tested, people back from afk--that's 40 minutes right there. Then you lose the first match and 2 people ragequit. Find a good HA guild? Lol, you have to be good first before they let you in one of those. SIMPLE MATH: it's easier and quicker to find 6 people and get them together.

People complain about all the spike builds--it's due to the kill count map. It's not because of 6v6, or even 8v8. People don't even really plan for halls--most are out there to farm fame, so they have to get past the kill count, which is heavily favored towards the spikers. With 6v6, spike builds were hard to make. With 8v8, spike is back with a vengeance. Bring back holding map, and you'll just get your holding builds. Something has to change, to balance the benefits of spikers to other types of builds on that map--whether that would be giving points to the team who holds the alter, lessen the points given to killing hero, or just scrap the map altogether.

The true answers to making HA better (not to fix it--it's not broken, it works, it just could be better by having more people in it) do not lie with just 6v6 or 8v8. You can make 6v6 HA great, or even 8v8 great. I think this week gives clear evidence is that the answer isn't just a magic number. It lies somewhere else. Maybe it's in the maps. Maybe it's in the skills. I wish they nerfed IWAY, just like they did with VIM. And those dumb necro skills for bspike (and touchers too, while you're at it). But then just new builds would crop up. Maybe people just need to quit whining and just play and evolve and learn to adapt.

Thought:
Maybe Anet just opened up a can of worms on this one. In their zealous desire to "listen to the community," Anet gave all the whiny multitudes illusions of grandeur--that they could actually make policy decisions, that only their voices would be carried out to the letter, and that they knew what was best for Guild Wars. Instead of having people make polite suggestions and moving on, you got all these people thinking they know everything there is to know about Guild Wars and know exactly what needs to be done to make EVERYONE happy. Oh, and they've read every single post and talk to every single member so they know exactly what the community wants. I always laugh when people make blanket statements like "bring back 8v8, old maps, and everyone will be happy." So pompous, it's almost childish....

axe · Feb 13, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Just throwing it out there, but what if on killcount maps it was more about surviving. What I mean is that if a person on the yellow team dies BOTH red and blue get a point. That way as long as your team members died the least, you would win.

I know it would encourage overly defensive builds, but with the other 1v1 maps it might balance it out a bit. I dont know just a thought. Currently I dont like the kill count maps either, but they are somewhat more interesting than altar holding.

But seriously even with the overabundance of spike and the kill count maps 8v8 is SO MUCH FUN!!!!!!!

Horace The Great · Feb 13, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

tell me again why you play and want to win in HA..

Because.. i like PvP better then PvE..
I want to win so i earn GWmoney (and for cooler emote^^) and to be famous^^, and ofcrouse winning is more fun then losing.
So why HA and not GvG?
HA is (when no kill count) more fun.

Death_From_Above · Feb 13, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Ok im just going to be brutialy honest here because to be honest this whole situation isnt rocket science on how 2 fix and im surprised at the scale of time at which it is taking to. Also i hear loads of sacastic post about 8v8 which to be honest is just rediculous.

8V8 owns 6v6 thats finalised. Now what is currently ruining 8v8 at the moment is this stupid kill count, and im sorry but yes i must say it is stupid. First of all it pressures people to run spikes, secondly if encourages spikes as it eliminates all hex builds and pressure builds. If i recall spikes hated hex stacking teams for example and hence it was one thing which meant they werent dominant. Also i think it wasnt a wise idea to test 8v8 with the mechanics implimented for 6v6.

Firstly correct me if im wrong but was it not implimented for 6v6 and thats completely different to 8v8. I say test it originaly how it was back in the days when HA owned. Problem with kill count is, yes your kills can be stolen as iv witnessed on now many occasions and also one team just gets farmed which im pretty sure has been stated over and over. One thing which is also bothering me is the way ritualists and assasins got buffed sort of over the top. If one proffession isnt being used much to be honest i wouldnt think you would want to buff it up so much to the extent now its the only proffessions used.

Like ask yourself people when was the last time you saw a war now. Problems i see with the assasins are, they can teleport to their target, wars have to run, assasins can now drop a target solo, wars evis got nurfed an makes it harder than before to now, assasins attack extreamily fast, i think i need to say no more. Rits where already a pest in the days because they negated so much damage so ye wont even go on about that. But fact of the matter is if u do a skill balance update. revert tombs to old mechanics aka alter cap ect then i believe tombs will be fixed and i say this is something that should be given a try rather than dragging this whole process of trying to fix somethin that was never originaly broken. Yes we have 8v8 whichs is perfect but as i said anet have broken it by changin stuff. So fix wat uv broken and uv fixed tombs. I believe to impliment such a thing will not be so hard, and infact you should be able to see the results quite quickly. Another thing i want to mention is all this talk about holding builds dominating in 8v8 thats y kill count was introduced. As iv said before, how many times did you see a holding build, if it is a crime to play with such skill that you can hold for a long time were is the problem with that. No build in 8v8 is invincible. it either takes skill to beat or u need the correct utility for example if u meet an enchantment team you want enchantment removeval.

Holding builds were never a problem in 8v8 it was just that people could take utility to try hold, doesent make them an official holding build. Anyways this is were the problem starts because in trying to cater for this non exsistant problem gw has effectivly messed up the balance of the game and casued more damage than good.

vapor311 · Feb 13, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by jai311

Update :
Made 8 vs 8 Permanent.
Kept Kill count in Broken Tower
Made VoD or something to finish in all maps (so teams dont run around forever
Removed Kill Count From CourtYard.
Made Halls as Altar Holding exactly like old days.
Nrefed Rt spikes for more recharge (even tough i get 500 fame a day with it )
Nerfed Song Of Concentration ( back to skilfull days )
Nerfed Paragon Way (yes they are still overpowered.

- I agree with making 8v8 permanent.
- I believe Kill Count is an OK dynamic for Broken Tower
- "Sudden Death" for matches that exceed 20 minutes is a stellar idea
- I also believe that Kill Count should be removed from Courtyard and in it's place it should be changed back to an old-school altar holding map
- Leave the Channelling attribute line as it is
- Song of Concentration is fine
- Paragon Way is a strong build, but I'm not 100% convinced that it's "overpowered"

Someone had mentioned earlier that A-Net had broken one leg to fix the other and this is sadly fairly accurate. In it's attempt to discourage overly defensive builds which created a snorefest, they flipped 180 degrees the other way and made it so that unless you're running a direct damage spike you won't make it past Broken Tower or Courtyard. Given their positioning in the map rotation and the fact that they are multi-team maps, this means that the likelihood of them being skipped is much smaller. So you are forced to gameplan your build around kill count maps if you plan on making it to Halls.
This is not to say that Kill Count is so terrible that it should be removed all together, but it shouldn't be the sole game mechanic on 2 critical maps.

P.S. 8v8 or 6v6 would never have been a discussion if HA had originally been 6v6 at release. Not that it was possible, but what would have happened if HA had been made 10v10 instead of 6v6? There would have been infinitely less QQing. Bottom line.. less addition by subtraction and find more meaningful ways to encourage gameplay.

Dancing Blade · Feb 13, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

6v6 before the crazy defensive Nightfall builds > old 8v8 > 6v6 after the boring builds came in > current "The Pussy Galore Story, or: SPIKING, How I Learned to Stick It In My Cooter and LOVE IT" 8v8.

~Z

qft.........

Effendi Westland · Feb 13, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Holding builds were never a problem in 8v8 it was just that people could take utility to try hold, doesent make them an official holding build.

????

Does the name Power Of My Rangers ring a bell, or many others from that time?

In the old system (holding altars with 8v8) holding builds were definately a problem. You knew when you were facing one if the warrior was using wards and wanding you to build up adreneline.

Whenever rank 11s and rank 12s play it's usually for massive holding, it's the only way they can get enough fame to up their emote. And call me mad but I think it was considerably easier in the 8v8 holding age. I know a few who got their rank 12 around that time, I know few who got rank 12 after the change to 6v6 and kill-count.