Curse

Horace The Great · Feb 11, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

When they started 6v6, i was like get back to 8v8 for a long time, now because of the killcount i don't really care anymore if it is going to be 6v6 or 8v8, if they just remove the stupid kill count and get back to the old system.
Like this teams are forced to play spikes!

tomcruisejr · Feb 11, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace The Great

When they started 6v6, i was like get back to 8v8 for a long time, now because of the killcount i don't really care anymore if it is going to be 6v6 or 8v8, if they just remove the stupid kill count and get back to the old system.
Like this teams are forced to play spikes!

You are forced to play spikes if you have low fame or you desperately need large amounts of fame.

so remove fame so no one will play spikes?

Badboy Thrasher · Feb 11, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

A good balanced team always pwns a good iway/a good nspike..

Minus Sign · Feb 11, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

8v8? Holy shithuggers! If they keep this up I just might have to come back!

I think its great that Anet is showing an ability to learn from its mistakes. Listen to the GvGers about GvG. Listen to the TAers about TA.

Listen to the HA community about HA.

We’ve all seen the result when they don’t. The GvG and PvE community were the focus of your decision to change this game to 6v6; everyone knew this when you did it; the majority of HAers derided you for it. And what happened? Did they flock to the new–improved–HA? No; they let it rot and the loyal players who liked HA the most...left you.

Since they already have a form of PvP to play in, GvGers will never like HA enough for them to take it seriously; stop gimping it for them. The result is what you had when I left: a crapy pressure fest happy-meal version of AB.

Respect the player base you have–in all its different forms–and the fact that they will often disagree on just what constitutes fun and rewarding. Prove that you can do that...and we might start respecting YOU!

If Anet keeps "updating backwards"–restoring this game to a semblance of its former versatility and enjoyablity–I just may have to give them money for the white elephant that is Nightfall.

Chilly Ress · Feb 12, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

I was in Halls last night for about 6 times I think we held. Every single was a relic run. WTF? But, honestly, 8v8 just simply offers more versatility and diversity.

Flowah · Feb 12, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

There aren't spike teams because it's 8v8, though that does add to it, there are mostly spikes because Anet in all its glorious wisdom decided to make Broken Tower and Courtyard pure deathmatch. How do you rack up quick kills when the other team is running around? Spike. Spike and run. Good luck winning those matches with balanced.

Black Strobe · Feb 12, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

I have no problem with a team attempting to score the first couple of kills and play defensively afterwards, it's easy to catch them with snares etc. The problem is with 3 teams they cant be caught, because you'll get ganked if you attempt to catch them.

You have no clue what you are talking about. There is a reason why teams starting to run away in GvG if they get too much pressure. In Tombs 1v1 Killcount you may snare them and even hit someone for 1 or 2 swings with the warrior-build you described, but - and that is the point - you will never ever score a single kill if the other team is not total retarded. They will just spike - run - run - spike - run run. If you get "ganked" in 3 way it's mostly a matter of bad positioning, not that you try to chase a team.

__
Non-altar 6v6 worked alot better than 8v8 is.

Tiyuri · Feb 12, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Strobe

You have no clue what you are talking about. There is a reason why teams starting to run away in GvG if they get too much pressure. In Tombs 1v1 Killcount you may snare them and even hit someone for 1 or 2 swings with the warrior-build you described, but - and that is the point - you will never ever score a single kill if the other team is not total retarded. They will just spike - run - run - spike - run run. If you get "ganked" in 3 way it's mostly a matter of bad positioning, not that you try to chase a team.

__
Non-altar 6v6 worked alot better than 8v8 is.

So with snares and speed buffs, you won't catch a team stopping to spike? Yeah ok.

The reason running away works in GVG is because you have npcs, a gate and so on to put between you and the chasing team, this is HA, you can't run away forever, you'll get caught up and snared, at which point you'll be forced to stop and heal or remove hexes, sooner or later you're going to get caught, and if you continue to run whilst a warrior is beating on your snared team mates, those team mates will die. So you must stop and heal.

Quote:

If you get "ganked" in 3 way it's mostly a matter of bad positioning, not that you try to chase a team.

Chasing a team leads to bad positioning, and thus you get pinched in a 3 way situation. Spikes do not have to chase people to apply pressure and thus can avoid pinches and keep their kill rate high. Further supporting the fact that kill count maps are practically built for spikes.

Black Strobe · Feb 12, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

You can't pressure them.

Tiyuri · Feb 12, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Strobe

You can't pressure them.

You haven't through this through, I edited my post to elaborate.

blakecraw · Feb 12, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

To answer the op, I like both ha's. I started ha after it went to 6v6, and got hooked. At the start of this weekend, I observed hoh and was disgusted by all the spike builds. Now that I've tried it out, however, I think the 8v8 format is fine. Having a strong infuser can take care of all but the best spikes, and that is the main, or only, problem (iway jokes aside) with 8v8 imo.

1v1 for all the kill count maps would help the spiking problem quite a bit I think, and would be a great change to the tourny. Then a balanced team could pressure the spike team, and balanced has the upper hand in 1v1 imo since infusing spikes basically (completely) ruins their killing power, whilst there's really no single player counter to balanced. The way it is now, it's really hard to pressure two spike teams at the same time as the only balanced in a 3 way deathmatch, which leads to one of the spike teams racking up kills while you try to pressure the other spikers.

Black Strobe · Feb 12, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

The reason running away works in GVG is because you have npcs, a gate and so on to put between you and the chasing team, this is HA, you can't run away forever, you'll get caught up and snared, at which point you'll be forced to stop and heal or remove hexes, sooner or later you're going to get caught, and if you continue to run whilst a warrior is beating on your snared team mates, those team mates will die. So you must stop and heal.

I never said that running away works in GvG forever. In fact it does not and it is the other way around: You can retreat into your Footmans or even your Base, but the other team will just kill your NPCs then - because Archers and Footies WON'T follow the running team for sure. In HA there is no other objective that would stop a team running around in circles. You may get the altar for +10%. I don't know how many slows you imagine to take with your team, but even if you have freezing gust, water trident, a foes and 2 copies of gale it will not help you to buy enough time and actually kill them via pressure. Maybe you get lucky and manage to unload a quick spike if you get the adren and the other teams sucks enough. Plus - don't forget your opponent will have hex-/condirems and snares for YOUR warriors, too.

However a solution would be - and they should have done this in 6v6 aswell - to improve the altarmechanic on killcount: It should not only give 10% damage but also 1 single point for the holding team every minute. I agree that the Killcount in it's current incarnation is the true issue why Broken and Courtyard totally suck with 8v8 and the only reason spikes are so much better than everything else in HA atm. Then again those maps where somewhat fun in 6v6.

Bacon Was A Monk · Feb 12, 2007, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flowah

There aren't spike teams because it's 8v8, though that does add to it, there are mostly spikes because Anet in all its glorious wisdom decided to make Broken Tower and Courtyard pure deathmatch. How do you rack up quick kills when the other team is running around? Spike. Spike and run. Good luck winning those matches with balanced.

i was about to play gw for the first time in a couple months. all 3 halls matches up at the time were 3 teams of rit spike. then i noticed they kept the same retarded hall objectives. after that, i looked at my friends list, and found out the rest of my r10+ people quit as well.

looks like 8v8 wont help HA either. back to... a different game which i can't mention here.

maraxusofk · Feb 12, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Been 2 days now. i seek guild and i have still insisted on running pressure balance, wit an occasional spike. so far, even with as much toolbox variety as an incoming para and shields up shouters, all we can really do is hope for skips past broken and courtyard. we can beat any team fighting 1v1. however, the kill count mechanics ensures that teams wit ranged spikes, aka rit spike, can go to a weaker team and spike them down. if we try to take out the winning team, the toher team then spieks us. handling 1 spike team is easy. fighting 2 teams at same time only opens so much space for infusing. all i can say is bring back the old altar maps. the new kill count makes balance pointless. if ha requires balance teams to pray for a skip, there is something seriously wrong.

theres nothing wrong wit a particular play style like iway pressure, hex pressure, e denial, or spike. however, when gameplay forces a group to run a certian build in order to be sucessful, something is seriuosly wrong.

log1k · Feb 12, 2007, 07:27 AM // 07:27

I played for hours tonight as a LoD/Infuse, and there wasnt that much rit spikes. Every match was a different build, can we say the same about 6v6? Only PrPr ran a rit spike, 2 pugs ran a invoke lightning spike and that's it. I liked the diversity. I had FUN.

Keep it 8v8, i'd like a normal HA 8v8 test weekend, old school HA ftw.

Horace The Great · Feb 12, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

You are forced to play spikes if you have low fame or you desperately need large amounts of fame.

so remove fame so no one will play spikes?

No, I don't play spike because I need large amount of fame or because i have low fame.

I play spike because of the killcount, if you dont play spike their you mostly loose.

So remove fame? no...
Remove killcount? yes...

JoeKnowMo · Feb 12, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

I would like to see killcount removed as well. The spike metagame is getting boring even if it's balanced spike.

I'm liking 8v8 much more than 6v6 due to the increased variety of builds.

However, pressure builds are getting the short end of the stick.

kooomar · Feb 12, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

I dont understand why everyone is saying "Omg, its 8v8, this brought spikes." If you remember back, 6v6 was becoming VERY prevalent with spike teams. There will ALWAYS be spike teams, for one reason:

You dont have to know how to play/fast matches.

The problem I see with 8v8 is the fact that spikes WERE everywhere in 6v6, then Anet decided to add 2 more people, and make it kill count, both of which only help out the spike teams.

Obviously people will say: "why Kooomar, you nub, you could obviously use those extra 2 people as utility, to counter those badass spikes which you speak of." My response to that is, unless you have a bonder/fertile/symbi combo, you will get rolled by a good spike.

With Nightfall came many buffed focused damage skills, now that its 8v8, you can have 6 spikers with 1 second enchant removals, that do over 100 dmg apiece (with MANY skills, ie Invoke, discord, obs flame) and you can still have 2 monks. So, unless youre going to chain SB (thats spell breaker, not spirit bond) on everyone with QZ/Serpant's Quickness (thats right, you would need 8 mo/rs, which would be badass) these "utilities" that every speak of are a feeble arguement to keeping HA 8v8.

So, for my last comment, I have seen some utility usage, and I applaud you (Incoming, martyr, and other elites that I have not seen in awhile though incoming was used withen a couple weeks, and nerfed HARD, it is noble to still try to run it to counter spikes). But, my teams rolled all these teams. You shutdown the monks with utility mesmers, you get rolled, because the monk can die/be rezzed multiply times while the team WITH the utility get steam-rolled.

So, I would like to see one of two things: bring back 6v6, where spikes existed, but didnt have net dmg of over 1000, including follow ups. Or, nerf 90% of the spike skills, which take out much dmg used by PvErs, which seems unfair to me. Well, thanks for the forum to post on, it must be hard to make descisions where 50% of the community says "Keep 8v8, just bring counter spikes you noobs" and the other 50% says "Keep 6v6, 8v8 is terrible."

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

I'm liking 8v8 much more than 6v6 due to the increased variety of builds.

Im sorry to nay say ANYONE, but with all of my r9+ teams I ran with, we started with some sort of balanced, then got Pwnzorzed, and said "Hell, lets run that rit spike, it owns." Which is exactly what every other team said (not necessarily rit spike, but any spike)

Chaz Rea · Feb 12, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by kooomar

I dont understand why everyone is saying "Omg, its 8v8, this brought spikes."

We're not saying its because of 8v8, its mainly because of the retarded altar maps that force you into playing spikes to have a reasonable chance to win.

Lorekeeper · Feb 12, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

What exactly is the point of 1v1 kill count? I mean seriously, make it a death match if you're going to make it 1v1. Having 1v1 kill count basically does the same thing except that if you get ahead on kills you could run around in circle for the rest of the duration. A spike team would simply have to force 1 kill through, and then run in circle putting Ward vs Foes behind them... I know there could be counters to that, etc., but seriously i don't see at all what would be the point of 1v1 kill count. It would make degen pressure or the like still having a hard time cause say they get 2 guys spiked but the pressure is starting to be hard to handle for the other team, that team can simply run and run and run and they wouldn't have to fight anymore.

Not too sure how you can keep kill counts while favoring a non-spike-only meta. Kill counts just lead to that. Ofc 1v1 would be less of a problem, but i'd rather have death matches than this.

Honestly, the kind of map i favor the most atm is one lots of HAers screamed about and it's AB-style capping. Cause it forces teams to move around the map, split, etc. and this gives balanced teams a bit advantage over spikes that are worse at splitting. I'd honestly like to see how it would turn out with Broken Tower being AB-style, say you give 1 point per kill (i don't like kills to be meaningless) and 3 points per Altar every 30s. A spike team that just stays in center would lose if one of the other teams controls 2 altars around. And if a team is wiped and control 0 altar, they lose. I mean, why is GvG controlled by balanced teams more than spikes? Cause splitting is an option.

The only kind of maps i can see encouraging a diverse meta atm is 1v1 deathmatches, AB-style and Relic runs. Kill count encourages spikes, and honestly so does the old holding altar system because spike teams can pack more defense than other builds (and i hated the holding meta).

I could see HoH staying at it is now being random. If kill-count is only 1/4 chances in 1 map, then it's actually nice. Cause kill counts with balanced teams IS fun, and if kill-count is only 1/4 game type at random in HoH, people won't build specifically for it. I'd see Broken Tower and Courtyard as 3 ways AB-style map. Or you could always make a kill count in Courtyard, because if Broken Tower discourages spike teams by being AB-style then people might not run spikes just for Courtyard. But still i'd rather see 3 ways kill-count just vanish except for 1/4 game type in HoH. Just like i wouldn't want a map dedicated to holding altar again, but i think it's nice that HoH has 1/4 game type that is holding.

good post...

i think we are just witnessing the problem of broken tower as a map in general. It has a clear focal point in the centre... with an altar. The old holding conditions fit very well with this map... 3 teams or 2 teams ran towards the centre and attempted to hold off other teams until timer ran out. Battle was forced to occur around the altar for this reason.

now we have kill count, where the focus is taken completely off the altar. And as many have said... 3 way kill count matches are just not working. For many reasons i do not wish to repeat.

The solutions are difficult. And they all stem from the nature of the map. If we turn it into a 1vs1 kill count... we would actually need to turn it into a 1vs1 deathmatch... because of the problems noted by the quoted poster above. If we turn broken tower into another deathmatch.... is there any point of the map itself? Its an altar map... surely if it was deathmatch we could use a new map.

I quite like the idea of a AB style capure the point match for this map. The centre altar would reward more points on its own... but there could be 3 outside cap points which altogether reward more points than the centre altar.
This would be good because it allows teams to experience the capture the point style victory condition before they reach HOH. Right now... unless teams reach HOH regularly they wont have any experience to compete on that specific HOH match. Allowing them to experience it earlier in the rotation will make HOH much more competitive than you see it now.

(you often see spike teams not bothering to capture points... they sit in the centre altar and spike whoever and whatever comes close to them... their point scores on these maps is woefully small... either they just dont care... or they just dont understand what is needed... but all teams who reach HOH are meant to be of high calibre... and should know what they are doing)

A capture the point style broken tower will reduce the dominance of the 8 man spike teams so early on in the rotation... their dominance in the first 2-3 maps is a significant factor in their popularity with the lesser experienced HAers. That is not to say that their success in HOH is also a factor.

The next problem is courtyard... a huge map... with a altar in the centre.

Keeping in line with my arguments for an earlier capture the point map in the rotation. I believe that courtyard should be reverted back to a altar holding match... giving teams an earlier exposure to the king of the hill type HOH victory condition before they actually reach HOH.

Bring back the priest or not.... keep claim resource at 3 seconds... song of conc is irrelevant now.

And with the variety of maps that would be in the rotation with the above suggestions... people will not run a holding build just to guarantee success on courtyard and 1/4 of HOH matches.

Rotation would then look like this

underworld - 1vs1 deathmatch
burial mounds - 1vs1 deathmatch with priest rez
broken tower - capture the point 1vs1vs1 or 1vs1 (i think 1vs1)
unholy temples - relic run
dark chambers - 1vs1 deathmatch with priest rez
courtyard - 1vs1vs1 altar holding
sacred temples - relic run
HOH - murder ball/capture the point/kill count/king of the hill

huge variety of victory conditions = more diverse builds = no dominance of of 8 man gimmick like rit spikes

could use more thought but i have class to go to

lorekeeper