Curse

Bread Fan · Feb 11, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

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Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

QFT.

I'd like someone to explain this to me:

The big complaint about 6v6 was that it was difficult to build utility into balanced builds (not like most of you ran balanced to begin with, but it apparently didn't stop you from complaining about it); and that build diversity was hampered by the fact that you could only pack 6 elites and a very limited amount of utility. Why would ANet move back to 8v8 on these grounds and then eliminate the wide majority of viable builds (i.e. non spike builds) by changing the map mechanics so that degen/pressure/lifesteal builds cannot possibly win kill counts?

Pressure builds cannot win altars. Bspike has a hard time because it doesn't deal damage. Degen builds--be they hex builds, condition builds, or both--are likewise out the window because it takes too long for them to kill. I daresay the kill count mechanic eliminates build possibilities every bit as much as the 6v6 switch did.

One of three things needs to happen:

Drop Killcounts.
Restore Spiritual Pain to its original functionality.
Grossly increase the aftercast or reduce the damage of rit spike skills.

Failing any of these, there is no reason for any sane person to run anything other than rit spike. It gets a great defensive benefit from spirits, and (unless both teams have the sense to gank them, and even then there's no guarantee) they should win just about every time and on every map save possibly relic runs. Unlike the apparent majority of the GwG forum population, I will not fault ANet for trying these new changes/skillbalance--but I will go on the record as being violently against the current map mechanics and the metagame it blatantly promotes.

Thx Cpt. Obvious (as mentioned in many other posts)

You can't nerf the rit spike due to imbalance for PvE players (yes it works both ways). Perhaps if Anet does decide to revert to altar caps/holding vital weapon needs a higher energy cost or recharge.

Lorekeeper · Feb 11, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

things i like

* being able to include more utility in a balanced build meaning i can counter the gimmick meta
* being able to run a 3 monk backline and making some interesting monk bars
* being able to include more friends from friends list in my team
* murderball is FTW - the most fun map in HA ever
* seeing lots of international districts is always a good sign!

things i dont like

* kill count still only rewards spike builds... this is a huge artificial limitation on the META... this was explicitly not the intention of the HA changes and yet it is still there. You wanted different, diverse builds... but you made running pressure builds using conditions and hexes... obsolete. You created a spike meta dominated by 2 classes... necros and ritualists.
* facing teams made up of 8 necros or ritualists or paragons too many times
* not seeing people run balanced builds because its just too hard to counter icy veins and rit spikes...

reasons for the above

1. 8 man spike builds are easier to set up and run for the average player. They can join a team, roll a character and follow 321spike ... as long as the caller knows what hes doing... success is pretty easy.
2. 8 man balanced teams are difficult to play... difficult to find the people who know what they are doing without being told... require lots of coordination on most maps
3. Icy veins is a 1 second cast with 5 second recharge allowing an 8 man team to spike very often, coupled with soulbarbs this spike holds more than enough dmg to kill a target. Relying on an infuser to infuse a hugely powerful spike almost twice every 10 seconds is a ridiculous amount of pressure to put on 1 person. Running cry of frustrations is not even a viable counter because it has a 20 second recharge... meaning you can only stop 1 spike every 20 seconds... combo with mantra of recovery and you might be able to stop 1 spike every 10 seconds... But its not enough because they can spike more often than that.
4. Rit spikes with gaze from beyond+doom+spirit burn...not only do they spike like every 5-8 seconds but they require double or even triple infusing because often these teams will just combo all 3 skills on a target. Infusers arent built to infuse multiple times... especially at a cost of 20-30 energy excluding self heals.

solutions to the problems

1. Tonight i ran a very successful anti spike build... flawlessed many rit and necro teams and ranger spike teams. The build is based on a very old concept of how to stop people dying from spikes.... i dont want to give away the exact build. However, running this build has severely limited my build slots for offensive characters... and so flexibility in build creation is lost. My point is... the spike meta IS counterable... but this sort of meta where one type of build is dominating... is really really boring.

2. Remove kill count from rotation... or remove a team from the map and make it 1 vs 1. One of the biggest risks for teams when playing on these 3 way fights is the danger of being surrounded by 2 teams. Its easier for spike teams to fight battles here... because they do not require prolonged engagement periods to score kills. They just need to be within casting range in order to spike. However, if you wanted to run a pressure build you would have to engage with an enemy for a much longer period of time in order for the pressure to settle in and allow you to kill. Because it takes pressure builds longer to reach this kill potential, they are vulnerable to the 3rd team attacking them from behind. And the pressure built into a team of 8 is only designed to work against an opposing team of 8... making the pressure team fight against 2 teams of 8... is a tall order and clearly impossible. The reason why spike builds fare better is because they only need to concentrate on 1 target at a time... it doesnt matter how many teams they are fighting, they have the potential to kill anyone on these teams.

Pressure builds would be viable if the map was 1 vs 1...

3) A limit to the number of the characters in the team using the same primary profession. Many vocal and less vocal players have requested this limitation to be implemented. You may only include up to 4 characters of the same primary profession. So no more 8 necro or 8 ritualist builds. I cannot see how this rule could be a bad thing... it will force people to think about their builds and result in a larger variety of builds.

This is a really important suggestion to consider... i truly believe it will solve the problem of these single profession ''gimmick'' builds.

And a meta without these types of gimmick builds... i realise wont be totally free of other types of gimmick builds... but as far as im concerned if you can create a gimmick using 3-4 classes... good for you.

Gimmick builds with 8 of the same profession need to go.

Just watch HOH observer mode.... of the possible 24 players. 90% are either ritualist or necro.

This is not a temporary fad... this will continue if nothing is done.

I am pleading for this to be considered... because I believe you are this > < close to revitalising HA. A few tweaks and few new rules here and there... is all it needs.

Keep 8vs8 if you implement these changes.
If not... bring back 6vs6.

thanks

lorekeeper

AYss · Feb 11, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

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