Curse

Lord Mendes · Feb 12, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lifeinthefridge

First of all squidget id like you to get off your little admin throne and please stop closing my threads because you don't agree with my opinion first of all, and my thread was opening up a new discussion. Second please don't delete my posts when i'm obviously pointing out an obvious troller. 3rd you complain that your HOLY GRAIL "BALANCED" isnt up to your standards. If you havent noticed 2 more professions and 350 skills have been added to the game since the last time we had 8v8. Second there is no such thing as a defined balanced build its just peoples way of trying to prove there good players because there not running some EVIL gimmik build that was once created by an actual person. Sorry but guild wars wasen't designed to only play with 1 warrior 1 ele 3 monks a mesmer and a ranger. But by the way can you explain the definition of a balanced because im not sure if everyone knows what one is. Also its obvious that people are going to run old templates because there as smart as you and don't know that other skills were added to the game. As for using a trapper and a third monk get over it why cant people use these if these are perfectly fine things to do. Also please give it more then 2 days for more builds to evolve sorry but with 10 proffessions and as many skills that there are a perfect balanced is not going to happen. Im guessing btw your one of those people who only balanced builds take skill am I right?
QQ more please
KTHX BYE

Squidget > you...

tacitus · Feb 13, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by masta_yoda

@^^ iA ran a two monk backline(wod and prot) and probably flawlessed most teams. most nr tranq in 8v8 had 2 monk backline.....

iA rolled most teams pretty fast. If some team had a mesmer or ranger or somehting pissing off on of their monks it died pretty fast. That being said they did get away with it. However how many teams did you see pull off iAs build? Not many thats because they were damn good players playing a difficult build. However in that build or at least one version of it they had a heal party spammer and a smite monk which gave some more support to the monks if needed.

nr tranq teams were pretty varied so im not going to try and say why each on got away with that, however in general the spirits sued by these teams gave a good amount of defense in general. They were in some way a different type of build. Bloodspike, vim, iway etc got away with no monks as such now nr tranq wasent as different as these builds but it was still different from normal balanced to be set aside in this discussion. I'm not saying nr tranq is gimmicky or anything but it is different because it revolves around spirits to a large extent.

I don't think there is need in such a personnel attack on squidget as Lifeinthefridge said above it devalues the conversation from any relevant topic.

Squidget is correct in suggesting that people are falling back into old ways without thinking in some respects i just don't believe its happening to the same extent. If the current system continues as it is more teams may go to 2 monk back lines with maybe some other form of healing such as heal part spammers, rits with some defense as posted above by Patccmoi (I prob wouldn't run the exact same build buts thats personnel choice, he is right that rits could provide good back line support and that build could work well in some situations but looking over the final points of the build are for another section of the forum.)

Also I would like to point out that although there is 3 monk anticlines being used a lot the skill set up is very different from before esp with elites, no more spell breaker, word of healing being so popular and skills like healing seed being ignored now. yes they might be small adoptions but at least it shows some thought in what people are running and not taking exactly the same skill templates from before.

Without the need of keeping the hero alive on alters and the current lack of shutdown builds in the meta might result in the demise of the 3 monk back line However I believe if shutdown builds became popular again then that 3rd monk would be back faster than it took [math] to reform for 8v8

. However until such an event comes to pass we can only speculate.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 13, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

A domination mesmer will work better to beat a spike , but a the chocking ranger have also other use : he will do a much better job in pressuring a with damage and interupt.

You really do not want to open the utility can of worms when comparing a CG ranger to a Domination mesmer. The CG ranger's damage is mediocre at best (doubly so when getting rocked by armor, blocks, and misses) and he really only has two disruption tricks - he can interrupt, or he can interrupt with a 20s skill disable through Distracting Shot.

Compare that to the wealth of disruption and damage on a Domination mesmer's bar. Diversion is a great anti-spammable that can shut down or debilitate a character for a critical period. Power Leak is a single interrupt on a fairly fast recharge that kills a huge amount of a character's energy pool, which can decide matches on its own. Cry of Frustration is incredibly useful against the multitude of caster spikes infesting HA at the moment. And with all that, you get a free elite spot to spend on something cool like MoR or Water Trident. Meanwhile, the CG ranger is still just sitting on one target and trying to keep him interrupted, which he can sort of do if the target only has long cast time spells or isn't good enough to cast between the choking gas impacts. He's not versatile, and his one trick isn't enough to make him worth bringing along.

The only saving grace of CG man is that he's much much easier to play. You can choose a target you want to shut down, sit on them while spamming interrupts, and you're sure to get a few things and probably shut down a caster spike. In low-level PuGing environments the CG guy might get you more wins because you don't need a lot of experience or skill to use him at near-optimal effectiveness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

that in theory but blind get removed , aegis get removed and don't protect spells and similar

You seem to be assuming that removal is free and instantaneous, which isn't the case at all. Blind removal isn't expensive, but when you blind someone there is a few seconds between the application and the removal. If the blindbot chooses the right few seconds (say, when a warrior wants to unload his adrenaline and kill someone), he's pulling his weight and mitigating a huge amount of damage. If he just throws blinds around randomly he's not accomplishing anything at all.

Of course, every form of off-monk defense can be countered in some way. You can strip Aegis, interrupt or AoE people out of wards, power through prot, or whatever. The point is, each point of energy and time they put into shutting down your off-monk defense is time they don't put into killing you. As a result, off-monk defense pulls pressure off your monks, while a third monk just means a slightly higher energy pool, and a lot of overhealing/prot. Add that to the fact that the off-monk defense characters can also carry offense/disruption and it's a no-brainer which one you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

you are assuming your only heal monk will heal undisturbed. that was not true on old 8v8.

I'm not assuming that, because I'm not assuming that I'll run a pure heal monk. A pure healing monk is a terrible character that really doesn't do anything particularly important or useful.

My favorite Tombs backline at the moment is an LoD/prot hybrid and a ZB/Infuse. The LoD guy can have a pretty high healing spec, but his only real healing skills are LoD and GoH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifeinthefridge

First of all squidget id like you to get off your little admin throne and please stop closing my threads because you don't agree with my opinion first of all, and my thread was opening up a new discussion. Second please don't delete my posts when i'm obviously pointing out an obvious troller. 3rd you complain that your HOLY GRAIL "BALANCED" isnt up to your standards. If you havent noticed 2 more professions and 350 skills have been added to the game since the last time we had 8v8. Second there is no such thing as a defined balanced build its just peoples way of trying to prove there good players because there not running some EVIL gimmik build that was once created by an actual person. Sorry but guild wars wasen't designed to only play with 1 warrior 1 ele 3 monks a mesmer and a ranger. But by the way can you explain the definition of a balanced because im not sure if everyone knows what one is. Also its obvious that people are going to run old templates because there as smart as you and don't know that other skills were added to the game. As for using a trapper and a third monk get over it why cant people use these if these are perfectly fine things to do. Also please give it more then 2 days for more builds to evolve sorry but with 10 proffessions and as many skills that there are a perfect balanced is not going to happen. Im guessing btw your one of those people who only balanced builds take skill am I right?
QQ more please
KTHX BYE

Quote:

Originally Posted by tactius

iA rolled most teams pretty fast. If some team had a mesmer or ranger or somehting pissing off on of their monks it died pretty fast. That being said they did get away with it. However how many teams did you see pull off iAs build? Not many thats because they were damn good players playing a difficult build. However in that build or at least one version of it they had a heal party spammer and a smite monk which gave some more support to the monks if needed.

You've hit on a lot of the reasons why a two-monk backline works here. When you have another character slot to devote to offense, the opposing disruption and damage gets steadily less effective because they have to play more defensively.

Good players play disruptively, which isn't the same thing as bringing a disruption-based build. You can tell when players are weak offensively because they're constantly chasing your monks and never attempting to disrupt your gameplan or movement. These teams are content to sit behind three monks and take turns swinging at each other's defense, without ever considering what the enemy is doing or how they can stop it.

Once you start analyzing and disrupting the enemy's gameplan, the third monk becomes superfluous and it's better to bring more offense. My solution to mesmers shutting down my two monks is to stick an axe in their face. My solution to mass warriors is to throw up Aegis or blinds while I rip through their undefended backline. My solution to wardcamping spikes is to blow them up with AoE. The more disruptively your offense plays, the more you realize that monks are your last line of defense, and no amount of monks is going to save you from a competent and undisrupted offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacitus

Also I would like to point out that although there is 3 monk anticlines being used a lot the skill set up is very different from before esp with elites, no more spell breaker, word of healing being so popular and skills like healing seed being ignored now. yes they might be small adoptions but at least it shows some thought in what people are running and not taking exactly the same skill templates from before.

Yeah, I agree that a lot of teams have adapted, but there are still a fair number who haven't. I've seen more than one Spellbreaker in Tombs this weekend, and there's still a fair number of inefficent templates or styles. It's something I think will get better over time though - the guilds that are serious about Tombs will rise to the top, and the meta will trickle down from Observer Mode until the PuGs are running similar builds to the top teams.

lishi · Feb 13, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

i think we lost where we started our discussion. we started when you said "on old metagame the 3 monk backline was a overkill if wasnt for the ghostly hero".

so while reading my reply consider only the old skill before nightfall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

You really do not want to open the utility can of worms when comparing a CG ranger to a Domination mesmer. The CG ranger's damage is mediocre at best (doubly so when getting rocked by armor, blocks, and misses) and he really only has two disruption tricks - he can interrupt, or he can interrupt with a 20s skill disable through Distracting Shot.

im not saying cg are better then mesmer im saying they have different use.
and cg do decent damage. if i remember well against 60 ar target its about 30-40 damage for shot + 7 of cg each hit.

far less then any melee but not bad as secondary effect.

Quote:

Compare that to the wealth of disruption and damage on a Domination mesmer's bar. Diversion is a great anti-spammable that can shut down or debilitate a character for a critical period. Power Leak is a single interrupt on a fairly fast recharge that kills a huge amount of a character's energy pool, which can decide matches on its own. Cry of Frustration is incredibly useful against the multitude of caster spikes infesting HA at the moment. And with all that, you get a free elite spot to spend on something cool like MoR or Water Trident. Meanwhile, the CG ranger is still just sitting on one target and trying to keep him interrupted, which he can sort of do if the target only has long cast time spells or isn't good enough to cast between the choking gas impacts. He's not versatile, and his one trick isn't enough to make him worth bringing along.

nothing to say against this , but consider the team build are made considering the current metagame. on old metagame a cg ranger rampaged because it interrupted most of skilbar around giving a decent damage.

And a good chocking gas ranger don't sit on only 1 character
A ranger can keep attacking and renewing his flurry/frenzy (interrupting with cg up) someone while tabbing the enemy team for some key skill to d-shot.

Quote:

The only saving grace of CG man is that he's much much easier to play. You can choose a target you want to shut down, sit on them while spamming interrupts, and you're sure to get a few things and probably shut down a caster spike. In low-level PuGing environments the CG guy might get you more wins because you don't need a lot of experience or skill to use him at near-optimal effectiveness.

yes , there are good one and bad one , but i won't say the bad one are almost good as good one(that is just my opinion anyway)

Quote:

You seem to be assuming that removal is free and instantaneous, which isn't the case at all. Blind removal isn't expensive, but when you blind someone there is a few seconds between the application and the removal. If the blindbot chooses the right few seconds (say, when a warrior wants to unload his adrenaline and kill someone), he's pulling his weight and mitigating a huge amount of damage. If he just throws blinds around randomly he's not accomplishing anything at all.

You also have to assume bliding a enemy is not free.
as far i remember the only easy to apply blind skill was bliding flash.

Quote:

Of course, every form of off-monk defense can be countered in some way. You can strip Aegis, interrupt or AoE people out of wards, power through prot, or whatever. The point is, each point of energy and time they put into shutting down your off-monk defense is time they don't put into killing you. As a result, off-monk defense pulls pressure off your monks, while a third monk just means a slightly higher energy pool, and a lot of overhealing/prot. Add that to the fact that the off-monk defense characters can also carry offense/disruption and it's a no-brainer which one you want.

i might also say any point of offmonk defence energy you use are one less to kill the enemy team.

and there only a certain number of offmonk offence you can add. you can run wards, aegis chain,blindbots,ritualist spirit without clipping your offence , plus for some of them can be countered without bothering too much the offence

Quote:

I'm not assuming that, because I'm not assuming that I'll run a pure heal monk. A pure healing monk is a terrible character that really doesn't do anything particularly important or useful.

that dont reply my point. what you wil do if your monk dont work at 100% becouse they got shutdown?

Quote:

My favorite Tombs backline at the moment is an LoD/prot hybrid and a ZB/Infuse. The LoD guy can have a pretty high healing spec, but his only real healing skills are LoD and GoH.

i think there something wrong with what you wrote.
if i understand well you will have basicly 2 prot monk with 1 usable healing skill each , 1 skill who also have a long recharge time (4/5 second) for a healing spell..
The ZB/Infuse as "pure healing" will have only ZB
The Lod/prot , LoD is a healing skill so when you use GoH ...
unless you reduce the damage of enemy team to 0 i dont see how you can heal anything.

Quote:

You've hit on a lot of the reasons why a two-monk backline works here. When you have another character slot to devote to offense, the opposing disruption and damage gets steadily less effective because they have to play more defensively.

Good players play disruptively, which isn't the same thing as bringing a disruption-based build. You can tell when players are weak offensively because they're constantly chasing your monks and never attempting to disrupt your gameplan or movement. These teams are content to sit behind three monks and take turns swinging at each other's defense, without ever considering what the enemy is doing or how they can stop it.

we are speaking of 2 team of the same level not a good team against a bad one.

Quote:

Once you start analyzing and disrupting the enemy's gameplan, the third monk becomes superfluous and it's better to bring more offense. My solution to mesmers shutting down my two monks is to stick an axe in their face. My solution to mass warriors is to throw up Aegis or blinds while I rip through their undefended backline. My solution to wardcamping spikes is to blow them up with AoE. The more disruptively your offense plays, the more you realize that monks are your last line of defense, and no amount of monks is going to save you from a competent and undisrupted offense.

i could say.
my solution of your axe warrior on my mesmer face? i trow up an aegis and blind them.
you rip through my undefended backline? who say its undefended? i have prots , wards , warrior annoying hex , snare , spirit etc etc(well not all of them but most of them )
your solution to wardcamping spikes ? if their build is decent they will have interrupt and shutdown for you aoe.
just because a team choose to take 3 monks dont mean they dont have utility, the real question is is better have 3 monks , a little less offence , a little less utility or 2 monk , little more offence and utility?

no one knowed how much offence ,utility and healing to take when they started to play . it got tweaked in 1 year and half of HA and Tomb (

).

like everone said on the last months "with 8v8 we have enough slots to take utility to distrupt and enough offence to kill!!!"

Thom · Feb 13, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

i could say.
my solution of your axe warrior on my mesmer face? i trow up an aegis and blind them.
you rip through my undefended backline? who say its undefended? i have prots , wards , warrior annoying hex , snare , spirit etc etc(well not all of them but most of them )
your solution to wardcamping spikes ? if their build is decent they will have interrupt and shutdown for you aoe.
just because a team choose to take 3 monks dont mean they dont have utility, the real question is is better have 3 monks , a little less offence , a little less utility or 2 monk , little more offence and utility?

no one knowed how much offence ,utility and healing to take when they started to play . it got tweaked in 1 year and half of HA and Tomb (

).

like everone said on the last months "with 8v8 we have enough slots to take utility to distrupt and enough offence to kill!!!"

Now we're finally talking guild wars. The argument is that since you can mitigate damage with a variety of characters, there is no reason to devote 3/8 of your characters to monk roles. A mesmer can mitigate better than a third monk can heal. Ritualist spirit spam, defensive trapping, linebacking warriors, defensive utility rangers... many of the more gimmicky, less standard defenses will outperform a third monk.

Why?
1. Overhealing, double removing, general inefficient play. Especially with 50% trigger skills, you're limited on how much of the same thing you want to do. Some redundancy is good, but it quickly turns into wasted energy.

2. It is difficult to find a monk build which reasonably packs damage. Smiting has its place, but smiters aren't b-surgers in terms of defensive efficiency. Most defensive characters can run a single damage skill extremely efficiently, monks don't have that option.

3. Monks defense isn't flexible. A mesmer can go from mitigating to aggressively shutting down without loss of efficiency. A linebacker can easily turn to primary targets or off monks when more offense is needed. Warders and trappers can use wards and traps aggressively to manufacture kills. A third monk is a third wheel when generating offense is important.

You can always counter the counter, so redundancy is valuable. Redundancy is also extremely inefficient. Flexiblity allows for internally redundant systems which avoid some of the inefficiency.

LoD/prot with a ZB/Infuse sounds like a very solid bar to me. Prot skills tend to be much more efficient than heals, so this is a good combo. The approach here of course is that monks are the last line of defense. Against pressure, ZB+LoD is a nice combo. Against spike all you really want is one heal you'll use every few seconds. Each monk has RoF and 2 other direct heals (GoH, ZB, Infuse, LoD), so if two get diverted you still have something. The other 5 slots are for condition removal, hex removal, protection and (energy management or self defense or aegis). If you're running with a team that knows what they're doing, you can keep a team up with this.

luilui · Feb 13, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

so much talk yet none of u guys managed to make something to change the meta, don't u think about when u so firmly believe what u said why ur team never do better than all the current teams with 3 monks backline?

hold the hall 5 times and the world will notice u, better than posting 500 10000++ words posts.

why's guru so full of gvgers, rage quitted yet floating around ex-iwayers, and ppl that dont actually play tombs??

vapor311 · Feb 13, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

so much talk yet none of u guys managed to make something to change the meta, don't u think about when u so firmly believe what u said why ur team never do better than all the current teams with 3 monks backline?

hold the hall 5 times and the world will notice u, better than posting 500 10000++ words posts.

why's guru so full of gvgers, rage quitted yet floating around ex-iwayers, and ppl that dont actually play tombs??

I would guess mostly, because GvG is the evolution beyond HA. The stakes are higher, the gameplay is more dynamic, etc. Therefore, when most players are done with HA (they get their emote or find a serious guild), they graduate to GvG. Guru is filled with people who've been playing the game for a very long time. Take that for what you will.

Dancing Blade · Feb 13, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

All i can say GW is neither fun nor balanced for straight 8vs8 fights, believe me i played the game for a very long time.

The thing that redeems pvp modes with a higher number of players per team is solely the possibility to split like you can in ab/gvg.

Thom · Feb 13, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

so much talk yet none of u guys managed to make something to change the meta, don't u think about when u so firmly believe what u said why ur team never do better than all the current teams with 3 monks backline?

hold the hall 5 times and the world will notice u, better than posting 500 10000++ words posts.

why's guru so full of gvgers, rage quitted yet floating around ex-iwayers, and ppl that dont actually play tombs??

-Teams that win money use the tactics I described. I'm describing the the 8v8 metagame with no altar to HA players who aren't familar with the concept.

-Organizing HA teams is a pain unless you have your regular GvG team, in which case one should GvG.

-You can post from work, but you can't hold halls 5 times when real life is pressing.

-Guru is full of GvGers because gvg is the more exciting, developped game type. Rage quitters isn't fair... HA v GvG is a time management issue; wish I had the hours to do both seriously.

-GvGers are interested in a strong HA environment because HA players enrich the GvG environment. Math and Deer brought their games to GvG, which was great. More importantly there are hundreds of new players who build their friends list in HA, with the goal of joining a PvP oriented guild. A strong tombs environment is good for GvG and GWs generally.

Mental Leteci · Feb 13, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

I understand MATH brought IWAY to GvG, but DeeR wasn't the 1st or the last guild that played ranger spike.
Also, I'd like to add that GvG ISN'T the more exciting type of game. It CAN be, but ISN'T because it depends on what kind of game style you like. I, for example, like quick and fast games (15-20 mins) so I choose HA over running in back and forward all the time, etc. Gameplay is more dynamic? What gave you that conclusion?
I believe it has nothing to do with stakes BTW, here I am playing on someone else's account and I still prefer HA over GvG, not exactly this kind of HA, but what can I do.

Apple · Feb 21, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

DeeR wasn't the 1st or the last guild that played ranger spike

wtf lies. Dryder invented rspike.