Curse

Oceans Fury · Feb 17, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

You think they DONT? Anet made half thier profits BECAUSE of the PvP community.

If your going to argue with someone bread, get your info straight.

They sold expansion sets so people could get the skills to GvG/HA or whatever PvP they wanted. Get out of your close minded world and open your eyes.

Patccmoi · Feb 17, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

The problem with the channeling skills at the moment such as gaze and spirit burn are that they cost a mere 5 energy, have aggressive recharges, a mere one second cast, and do *much* more damage than lightning strike despite not having armor penetration. Hell, even without armor penetration they do almost as much damage as lightning orb which costs 10 more energy and an additional second of cast time and can miss. A-net seems to think these skills are balanced by the conditionals on the skills (within earshot of spirit). Well, they're not.

I love GuildWiki's description of this skill:

Yeah. So. 1/4 second cast. Foe within earshot of a spirit (a condition that a team with 6 rits should have no problem meeting). Ignores armor. But has a 20 second recharge. Sounds real balanced to me...

Actually out of Lamentation i personally think the rest is fine. The conditionals aren't actually meaningless at all. Forget kill count maps (every1 agrees they're bad, no point arguing with them in mind), against Rts you can easily take down spirits if you bring 1-2 appropriate skills in your build for it and maybe a few interrupts. Unnatural Signet will get rid of any 1 particular spirit in usually 2 hits, at worse 3. Use some Cry of Frustration to stop mass spirit casting. Use some fire AOE to destroy any pack of spirit, etc.

If Channeling skills that are conditional were actually exactly as good as air skills when the condition is met, then they'd be pointless. Imo, Rt nuking (bar lamentation) is the only viable single target nuking in the game, appart maybe from the new dual atune Lightning Hammer-Lightning Orb spammers. The downside is the conditional on the skills.

The energy is irrelevant as its kinda balanced for Rts. They might be 5E, but Rts don't have atunements or the like either. They have some elite emanagement, but the best requires 15 in Spawning (ya right) to reach the quality of Elemental Atunement and removes your weapon (-60 health, no fast cast or fast recharge...). The energy on Channeling skills is very balanced to what Rts can afford realistically.

I think that with a tweak to Lamentation and a removal of kill count mechanic (at least from Broken and Courtyard, don't mind much about it being there as a random part of HoH) Rt spikers wouldn't be any more of a problem than Blood spikers were, and if anything less of. Any more nerfing to other channeling skill (spirit burn, gaze, channeled strike, etc.) and you'll destroy Channeling as a viable line out of anything but a Rt spike. As i said above, i think that Channeling is actually what a single target nuking attribute should look like to be viable as a primary damage dealer in a team. It's sustainable, damage is pretty high, etc. You can't let warriors run loose, well you can't run Rt Channelers run loose either, that's fine and it's how it should be imo. Problem is mainly Lamentation that you can't really do anything against. All the rest of the spikes are pretty easy to save as a whole, or at least not more problematic than things like Blood spike, and the defense isn't much more problematic than OFlame spikers with 10 wards, Shields Up! and self-defense enchants. In 8v8 you can easily deal with both with a balanced setup. But not really in a kill count map.

Bread Fan · Feb 17, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Wow Ocean wow.....

You really think people went out and bought GW because of HA (Yes HEROES ASCENT)? I didn't say because of PvP in general ie: GvG....

People that played HA before all these shitty mechanics were implemented liked it the way it was before. So if Anet left it the way it was HA players would continue to buy expansions....Why am I even bothering to explain it to you, you are quite simple.

Mr Seph · Feb 17, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

so, 8v8 with new mechanics is out for like 1 week, and you are already crying about it, how typical to find this on guru-forums.
Anyways, i see alot of whining about the kill count maps, which i totally do not understand. Kill Count is a decent form of playstyle, its not bugged, its not imbalanced, and hey, they even removed it from HoH for your pleasure.
I would say, plz, try the changes out for longer then 1 run, and give opinions then.
Ive dont HA practically the entire week, held quite some time, and noticed that these changes actually require more skill to win HoH.
In old-day tombs, you would go in with the uberholding build, wait to kill a last guy in a random map till HoH-message showed up, tried to jump, and hold.
I remember that people cried about holding builds that required no skill at all.
Well, you got it, and you are still not happy.
Same goes for 8v8 vs 6v6, you fill 1000 posts on that, you get what you want, and you still cry.
So, i wonder, is there any way to please you people?? or are you just that selfish and go cry to mommy all day long with the words: "Bring back old-day tombs"?
I suggest, at least test things out. Old 8v8 was getting boring after playing it for i dont know what long period of time. 6v6 was introduced, i remember at start, everyone liked it, but after a while they didnt want this anymore.
Now, they bring back 8v8 just for your pleasure, but its not like the old-tombs, and you start filling forums again. So, maybe your all blond, but its called 'test-weekends', that means they test stuff out, its not permanent. You are all acting as if its here to stay for the rest of your life.
Tbh here, at first of the new mechanics, i was a lil sceptic about the whole idea, i wanted old HA back as well, more holding, more fun.
But after actually testing this new system with 8v8, i noticed it requires actually more strategic insight to win.
But yes, they removed the entire 'lets hold for 8 hours straight' issue, but i dont really care anymore.
Imo, cry less on these kind of forums, put the time you spend here into actually testing the changes, and whine later.
And to those that still dont believe kill count isnt broken, i say the same thing, TEST! It is not broken, you can not steal kills, ive seen it before, and its all logical how the kills get distributed.

And to Oceans Fury: ANET does care about HA, why do you think they would put time into making the changes, letting us test, and letting us give our opinion. The devs are not PVE-monsters, you dont have to hate them, they are actually trying to make HA better, and you can still not be satisfied? i say gg to you.

To Silver Star:

Quote:

I think the following:

1. Everything reverted back.
2. Current HoH chest implaced.
3. Scared Removed.
4. New map 1v1v1 instead of scared.

So you just wanna change things how they are best for you? dont you think that is a little bit selfish? You want it revered back, then give me arguments why it isnt good at this point, or give arguments why your version is better. And plz, dont come here with the argument 'because everyone i talk to wants it', cuz then you can easily get all the people together that want 6v6, and make them cry to make HA back to 6v6.
Tell me, why is old HA better?
Did it take more skill, or did you have easier time winning halls with gimmicks?
Was it strategy that decided broken tower, or was it the first one on the altar wins the game?
Imo, after playing the new HA, its more about 'the better team wins'
If you do not happen to be that team, then i understand why you are here posting these posts.
But if you would actually take effort, and tried to be better, then you would understand that these changes are not that bad, even good, and maybe better then old-day tombs.

~~
Seph

Franco Power · Feb 17, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

mmm Ocean you said, you don't like these new maps except kill count... then what don't you like from updates, because besides kill count only relic run in halls is different and the time increased ofcourse, since King of the hill is similar to holding so I won't comment on that.

And by the way, how is driving old players from HA and that way them not buying the new expansions a good thing for "business"?

Half of my friends moved to WoW =\ because Anet changed HA, I don't see what's the point, and people come in here and say, Oh Anet is doing this so new players (aka pve players) can get into HA, I'm sorry but that's total bullshit, PvE players dont get into HA because they are new, they dont get in HA because they dont like it, they dont care about pvp, and following tactics, they want to do their own thing in their own way, and that doesnt work in pvp, the only thing a pve player would like to have is a bambi/tiger emote, but they dont want to work for it most of the times, a person that wants to work for it can get it like anyone else. Ive seen many new people that havent been playing for more then 6 months geting rank 9, get a nice guild, play smart,70-100 fame a night, even if they use gimmicks, a new player can't expect to get into HA and start playing balanced like a pro, heh I vimwayed/iwayed my r3 lol, only after that I started playing serious, now no one can say I play gimmicks, but took me time to learn, that's the problem with new players, they dont want anyone to tell them whats good and whats not. So coming in here and saying Anet doesn't give a damn about veterans and only wants to please new players is not only false but also irracional.

Get better arguements please

Death_From_Above · Feb 18, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

To be honest with you although randomway dosent have any actual proof. His point is 200 percent valid, and i believe the reason he is not stating the rest of his argument is because like me, he has said it now 300 times and is getting ticked off because although as simple and easy as it seems anet dont seem to get the message. If you want proof i say common sence would give us that to be frank. Regarding the kill count being removed out of tombs, when i logged on gw after that update guess what i myself first thought and many other people thought aka on my friends list, about 7 others who were on at the time because they pmed me. They all said useless update, we dont want kill count at all, this is taking to long. Some go forget this i quit these guys suck. You say if anet are to revert it back to old tombs then they should do it slowly. Dude im pactient and have been for 6 months which is half a year. Im not getting younger any day and your telling me i should wait another 3 months just so some pvers who barely play tombs can adapt easyer. I DONT RECALL ANET CHANGING 8V8 TO 6V6 AND THE MECHANICS SLOWLY do i. It was sprung out on us from the blue. Come back one day an oh look 6v6. Tried adapt. Sorry couldnt and wasnt going to complain but no1 else could cos 6v6 sucked. So what about us then. If people are going to stop HAing cos 8v8 is changed to its former glory. then let them stop. HA was really for those who were serious about playing or willing to learn, not about people who are going to moan because they cant get everything easy. in trying to please the pvers and keep them playing guildwars. ANET have fundementaly destroyed many guilds, forced many players to quit. And i believe this has cost them money because as i said before. Many HAers infact buy the next campaign, so get rid of them an whos gonna get ur next campaign in the HA community, the ones who were loyal to gw and didnt play for just a month then go to another game but since it came out. I think ANET have had long enough to fix up, long enough and they havent. Its almost like they have got new management as some have been saying. They were doing well untill implimenting 6v6 and from there gw = downhill. To be honest as things stand i can honestly say i would feel much happyier if someone like randomway was made boss over pvp for HA (this is how annoyed i am and frustrated with all this waiting and nonsence for a situation that could be easily resolved).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Seph

so, 8v8 with new mechanics is out for like 1 week, and you are already crying about it, how typical to find this on guru-forums.
Anyways, i see alot of whining about the kill count maps, which i totally do not understand. Kill Count is a decent form of playstyle, its not bugged, its not imbalanced, and hey, they even removed it from HoH for your pleasure.
I would say, plz, try the changes out for longer then 1 run, and give opinions then.
Ive dont HA practically the entire week, held quite some time, and noticed that these changes actually require more skill to win HoH.
In old-day tombs, you would go in with the uberholding build, wait to kill a last guy in a random map till HoH-message showed up, tried to jump, and hold.
I remember that people cried about holding builds that required no skill at all.
Well, you got it, and you are still not happy.
Same goes for 8v8 vs 6v6, you fill 1000 posts on that, you get what you want, and you still cry.
So, i wonder, is there any way to please you people?? or are you just that selfish and go cry to mommy all day long with the words: "Bring back old-day tombs"?
I suggest, at least test things out. Old 8v8 was getting boring after playing it for i dont know what long period of time. 6v6 was introduced, i remember at start, everyone liked it, but after a while they didnt want this anymore.
Now, they bring back 8v8 just for your pleasure, but its not like the old-tombs, and you start filling forums again. So, maybe your all blond, but its called 'test-weekends', that means they test stuff out, its not permanent. You are all acting as if its here to stay for the rest of your life.
Tbh here, at first of the new mechanics, i was a lil sceptic about the whole idea, i wanted old HA back as well, more holding, more fun.
But after actually testing this new system with 8v8, i noticed it requires actually more strategic insight to win.
But yes, they removed the entire 'lets hold for 8 hours straight' issue, but i dont really care anymore.
Imo, cry less on these kind of forums, put the time you spend here into actually testing the changes, and whine later.
And to those that still dont believe kill count isnt broken, i say the same thing, TEST! It is not broken, you can not steal kills, ive seen it before, and its all logical how the kills get distributed.

And to Oceans Fury: ANET does care about HA, why do you think they would put time into making the changes, letting us test, and letting us give our opinion. The devs are not PVE-monsters, you dont have to hate them, they are actually trying to make HA better, and you can still not be satisfied? i say gg to you.

To Silver Star:

So you just wanna change things how they are best for you? dont you think that is a little bit selfish? You want it revered back, then give me arguments why it isnt good at this point, or give arguments why your version is better. And plz, dont come here with the argument 'because everyone i talk to wants it', cuz then you can easily get all the people together that want 6v6, and make them cry to make HA back to 6v6.
Tell me, why is old HA better?
Did it take more skill, or did you have easier time winning halls with gimmicks?
Was it strategy that decided broken tower, or was it the first one on the altar wins the game?
Imo, after playing the new HA, its more about 'the better team wins'
If you do not happen to be that team, then i understand why you are here posting these posts.
But if you would actually take effort, and tried to be better, then you would understand that these changes are not that bad, even good, and maybe better then old-day tombs.

~~
Seph

Some of the rubbish you people are chatting is beyond me. Dude do you even play HA. Getting fed up now really fed up of nubs just postin stuff when they dont even understand. No he dosent want to change stuff best for you its for everyone and the people who actualy played HA alot and botherd to play it dayly. This view is one which many throught the HA community share, many of my friends to have quit and just said iv had enough. Many of which didnt come and vent there rage on the forms because they dont use forms. Stop asking stupid questions which have already been asked. I understand how these players feel. They type reasons why on another post. They give even more on another. They give even more on another. An then ur telling the guy to give you some more. Open your eyes and read posts like on share your thoughts on heros accent or so who likes the new 8v8. All these answers are there. Untill then i suggest instead of saying HA players are being selfish in asking for these dam basic changes you rather just dont say anything.

Its like having Tony blair say a valid speach where he answers many questions. And then some guy goes to him when he says another time a just shortened thing of what he has said (basic) oh you make points with no substance. Give some evidence. Its just rediculous. As iv said in many posts. I rarely complain and if i have a problem, ill check to see if its just me. With the point this guy has raised. The suggestion of change HA back to its original state is accepted widely in the HA community of players who are actually good and were dedicated and played HA. As i said before, most of these views your not going to see on the actual forms because most of these players like me didnt use or dont use the forms. But actualy ask around, (ask good players btw who have played ha for a while now aka before 6v6) and youll see the majority just want old tombs back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Made In Ascalon

...not everyone can form a guild group 100% of the time they want to do HA =|
In either case, I was naming a single example and your comment was irrelevant to the point.

Its called building a friends lists and pacients. If you actually bothered to put the effort into HA you would find your friend list would build up and setting up a team would be quick. I could set up teams in 15 mins with 8v8 just by that soul fact. You dont need a guild group or guildies

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

You honestly think people are going to go out and buy GW because of HA? Are you delusional? If that were true AT ALL you are saying that a company should piss off their current customers so they can attract new ones? I think it is safe to say you don't have a business degree.

To be honest i think your just ignorant. I got gw like 1 month after it came out and i would have quit ageeeees ago. If not for HA. Many people i know too also too would have quit. After finishing the props campaign, i went HA. AND OH LOOk. I loved it. Kept me intrested for a year now, something which pve couldnt do. Now i know people who purposely get new expansions or buy gw now for HA. I even recomended it to some friends who got it purposely for the HAing so what does this say to ur statement. Obviously not well researched.

coleslawdressin · Feb 18, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Some of the rubbish you people are chatting is beyound me. Dude do you even play HA. Getting fed up now really fed up of nubs just postin stuff when they dont even understand. ...

Its like having Tony blair say ... The suggestion of change HA back to its original state is accepted widely in the HA community of players who are actually good and were dedicated and played HA.

You are talking about rubbish? It was a waste of time to read your post and try to pull out the one sentence you even said anything.

6v6 sucks and so does kill count, but I think people mainly just care that it stays 8v8. There is nothing wrong with them making holding multiple objectives. They aren't changing things back to the old way... From what I hear it sounds like we might be getting a few new maps (don't know when).

Effendi Westland · Feb 18, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Seph

Seph's post

Some of the rubbish you people are chatting is beyond me. Dude do you even play HA. Getting fed up now really fed up of nubs just postin stuff when they dont even understand.

....

The suggestion of change HA back to its original state is accepted widely in the HA community of players who are actually good and were dedicated and played HA.

I also fail to understand why anybody does not agree with the "killcount is bugged" view automatically a noob who obviously does not play HA alot.

As far as the suggestion for HA to return to it's original state. I know many people who actually appreciate the changes made, and some of them have been HA players for quite some time.

Myself as far as 8v8 kill-count goes I can't really say, haven't been doing alot of pvp this week, but with 6v6 it was a blast. Ganking is annoying, but that could sorta also happen with Ghost Cap anyways and smart teams use terrain to try and prevent it, which was alot harder during Ghost Cap.

llsektorll · Feb 18, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

kill count would be more interesting if the spawn zone would be a random location so that you dont get ganked because trappers have loads of fun trapping your location

master_of_puppets · Feb 19, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by llsektorll

kill count would be more interesting if the spawn zone would be a random location so that you dont get ganked because trappers have loads of fun trapping your location

um...who the hell plays trapper? everyone plays spiker...

Mental Leteci · Feb 19, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Ok I'd like to say couple of things as well. 1st Seph, this type of game doesn't require more skill, trust me. It requires more luck. It all depends if you're going to meet dual rit spike on courtyard, or if you're gonna get relic run and capture points instead of king of the hill where your ghost can get spiked through infuse or I don't know what else. I like it the old way and I don't really see a problem with necro spike. It's pure garbage and it never actually held for that long (unless it's noobhour). People who are complaining about holding builds should maybe think about builds they've been running and do something about it.

suiraCLAW · Feb 19, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Ok I'd like to say couple of things as well. 1st Seph, this type of game doesn't require more skill, trust me. It requires more luck. It all depends if you're going to meet dual rit spike on courtyard, or if you're gonna get relic run and capture points instead of king of the hill where your ghost can get spiked through infuse or I don't know what else.

The problems you mention would still exist in the old type of HA...

Mental Leteci · Feb 19, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Oh really? Did you play old HA? Ok let's pretend we're in old HA now...
Courtyard, dual rit spike, you have a 99% chance to win. You won't get ganked because you obviously won't cap 1st and it's not abut kill count, it's about holding the altar. So one of the rit spikes will cap thinking they can hold and then they'll get spiked by other rit spike and taking pressure from us.

HoH, you're 100% sure that you need to hold the altar so you can just let your ghost die if you think you can't hold against 2 rit spikes and just wait to see if they'll cap or not, if they don't fine, you just try to hold. This is the only luck you need, to make one team cap if you're playing against 2 spike teams. Nowhere else is luck involved in old maps. Here are ATM 3 lottery maps: broken tower, courtyard and HoH. They tried to kill holding builds and I don't see why. Holding builds usually had to skip to hold cause there was no way they could pass relic runs or get to HoH fast (and that's the purpose, get to halls and hold as much as possible). Even if "holding builds" were in halls every balanced team can take them out. And I really mean EVERY BALANCED team.

Tea Girl · Feb 19, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

They tried to kill holding builds and I don't see why. Holding builds usually had to skip to hold cause there was no way they could pass relic runs or get to HoH fast (and that's the purpose, get to halls and hold as much as possible). Even if "holding builds" were in halls every balanced team can take them out. And I really mean EVERY BALANCED team.

My guess is that Anet wants to take out holding builds because when NF was released, people went in with the pre-nerfed paragons and held halls for ~3hrs... (It was so sad that I actully made it to halls 2 times during that time but the 3rd team is always some random SF-heroway and they won't gank... ><) Then even after the first nerfbat landed on the paragons, certain guilds were still be able to hold halls for ~1 or 2hrs with paragons and spirits (If I remember it correctly).

The problem back then were caused by overly defensive skills with high armor backline and not enough attack power from 6 people (not always 12 people because the other team usually won't team up -.-) to take them out in ~4mins (old 6v6 hall timer).

Ideally, if we had a nice skill balance and MAYBE revert back to old 8v8 then all these problems will be fixed. But instead ANet rushed into changing the whole mechanism of HA by replacing kill count on alter maps. So now kill count only encourages people to run meta spikes/ganks in 8v8.

Death_From_Above · Feb 19, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

well as i said the easy options there. Anet are just looking it blankly in the face and walking past it. Holding builds in old HA (so people say that there was a huge problem with them, i disagree), least i could still go in with a balanced build and have a shot at winning halls and even better i could regulary win halls. Fact of the matter was i enjoyed the journy up to halls, winning it was even better when running a balanced build. Fact now i cant even no longer make that journey with a nice unique balanced build is just lame. I read on the guildwars website just now a new article on HA. In it was mentioned that there was a slow steady decline in the number of HA players before 6v6 came out. My question now, if this is true. How do u know this is because actual players arnt enjoying tombs and maybe not because of the time frame, i recon this whole decsion to change it to 6v6 was way to hasty without doing proper research because it appears anet only held speed that decline 10 fold. Whats worse i think is instead of fixing this problem they have caused, anet are taking there time as like i stated before. Many of us just dont have, im a growing boy i wont be young for ever. I wont have free time for ever because once you start getting piled with work from school your going to find it hard.

FoxBat · Feb 19, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

I think it should be pointed out that every old HA balanced build consisted of 7 characters rather than 8. The 1 SB+Infuser was gimmicky crap that existed solely to keep the ghostly up on altar, and something like it was practically required to hold w/balanced. I guess thats better than 6/8 gimmick chars though...

Randomway Ftw · Feb 19, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I think it should be pointed out that every old HA balanced build consisted of 7 characters rather than 8. The 1 SB+Infuser was gimmicky crap that existed solely to keep the ghostly up on altar, and something like it was practically required to hold w/balanced. I guess thats better than 6/8 gimmick chars though...

Sorry, but your wrong. SB was not brought for only the purpose of keeping the Ghostly Hero alive, it had a number of utility uses making it extremely easy to cap against spell interupts, keeping the infuser alive against caster spikes, helping the relic runner escape gales, and other spells that try to slow him down, and or kill him, and to force crucial skills through against spell interupts. The type of support required to have 100% protection from sb
(qz, blessed Aura, 20% ench) makes it incompatible with most balanced builds, not to mention that SB was almost useless against apostasy iway which was common in the metagame.

There are better ways that are not elite for keeping the ghost up on the altar anyways.

defrule · Feb 20, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

There are those who like kill count, there are those who dont like kill count. It it pointless trying to convince someone who likes killcount that it sucks or vice versa.

Why? Because it's like convincing someone who doesn't like the colour red to like it. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't like it. Even if the number of reasons why he should like it outnumber the reasons for not, it still won't change ones mind.

Priest Of Sin · Feb 21, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

@ the people saying "Pve players don't HA because they blah blah blah..."

We don't HA because of all the rank bullshit elitism. In PvE, all we ask of a person is max armor and a decent skillbar. In HA, you need max armor, proper runes, 100% skill unlock, 4+weapon sets, multiple headpieces, and to top it all off a stupid golden animal (don't get me wrong, I wuv my deer).

A person can jump into PvE and have a blast for at least a few minutes, yes? Well, a person CANNOT jump into HA and have fun, because said person gets smashed by rit spike within 20 seconds. In the old HA, it was easier to get a pug due to IWAY (easy to use, can net you at least 3 fame or so per run). And let's face it, IWAY was never a BIG problem..

and for those saying you "earned your fame the hard way"? We all know you ran crap PUG builds untill you had a deer. Stop kidding yourself. A R3 group has as much chance of failing as a PUG.

curse you, HA elitism.

Oceans Fury · Feb 22, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

"We don't HA because of all the rank bullshit elitism. In PvE, all we ask of a person is max armor and a decent skillbar. In HA, you need max armor, proper runes, 100% skill unlock, 4+weapon sets, multiple headpieces, and to top it all off a stupid golden animal (don't get me wrong, I wuv my deer)."

Or a PvP character slot.

Dont even talk about elitism, the only way rank has any prevelance to the skill of a group atm is if its two balanced builds.

"And to Oceans Fury: ANET does care about HA, why do you think they would put time into making the changes, letting us test, and letting us give our opinion. The devs are not PVE-monsters, you dont have to hate them, they are actually trying to make HA better, and you can still not be satisfied? i say gg to you."

My whole point is Anet IS looking out for the PvP community, theyre making money off of the PvP community, maybe read before trying to sound like you know something.

"Wow Ocean wow.....

You really think people went out and bought GW because of HA (Yes HEROES ASCENT)? I didn't say because of PvP in general ie: GvG....

People that played HA before all these shitty mechanics were implemented liked it the way it was before. So if Anet left it the way it was HA players would continue to buy expansions....Why am I even bothering to explain it to you, you are quite simple."

Ok, look at your statement, then look at what Im trying to say. Im in total favor of returning HA to the condition it was in *pre-factions*. If you dont believe me about people playing GW primarily for HA, why did then they release the PvP pack? GvG? Well seeing as Anet themselves already stated they revealed it so MORE players could more thoroughly enjoy the PvP experience, mainly HA. Seeing as GvGers as a whole tend to PvE more. Dunno if you caught that, just thought Id let you know the what the wall looks like that your trying to argue with.

"mmm Ocean you said, you don't like these new maps except kill count... then what don't you like from updates, because besides kill count only relic run in halls is different and the time increased ofcourse, since King of the hill is similar to holding so I won't comment on that.

And by the way, how is driving old players from HA and that way them not buying the new expansions a good thing for "business"?

Half of my friends moved to WoW =\ because Anet changed HA, I don't see what's the point, and people come in here and say, Oh Anet is doing this so new players (aka pve players) can get into HA, I'm sorry but that's total bullshit, PvE players dont get into HA because they are new, they dont get in HA because they dont like it, they dont care about pvp, and following tactics, they want to do their own thing in their own way, and that doesnt work in pvp, the only thing a pve player would like to have is a bambi/tiger emote, but they dont want to work for it most of the times, a person that wants to work for it can get it like anyone else. Ive seen many new people that havent been playing for more then 6 months geting rank 9, get a nice guild, play smart,70-100 fame a night, even if they use gimmicks, a new player can't expect to get into HA and start playing balanced like a pro, heh I vimwayed/iwayed my r3 lol, only after that I started playing serious, now no one can say I play gimmicks, but took me time to learn, that's the problem with new players, they dont want anyone to tell them whats good and whats not. So coming in here and saying Anet doesn't give a damn about veterans and only wants to please new players is not only false but also irracional. "

Do you even read your statements after you type? I doubt you like to think before you talk. Let me review some idiodic statements made by you:

"Oh Anet is doing this so new players (aka pve players) can get into HA, I'm sorry but that's total bullshit, PvE players dont get into HA because they are new, they dont get in HA because they dont like it"
---Hmm, Ok so Anet is doing all these updates because the vast amount of players in HA said "Yea, we want 6v6 and overpowerd spikebuilds to exploit", "Yea, we want these new halls maps"...
..
..
WRONG
Anet SPECIFICALLY made these changes to attract new players, and if you had taken time to read the website or any of the interviews about the expansions, ALL OF THEM cited the fact that theyre trying to attract new players to the HA community.

"a new player can't expect to get into HA and start playing balanced like a pro, heh I vimwayed/iwayed my r3 lol"
---So who the hell are you to say what a new player can and cant do? If you Iwayed/Vimwayed your r3, then you have no clue what a new player can do with a balanced build.

"Ive seen many new people that havent been playing for more then 6 months geting rank 9, get a nice guild, play smart,70-100 fame a night, even if they use gimmicks"
---Make up your mind. Either new players can do good in HA or they cant?

"So coming in here and saying Anet doesn't give a damn about veterans and only wants to please new players is not only false but also irracional."
---Who said that? All Ive said so far is that Anet is trying to had to attract new customers, Ive always believed they try and keep their long time players happy, wether they succeed or not.

"Originally Posted by Bread Fan
You honestly think people are going to go out and buy GW because of HA? Are you delusional? If that were true AT ALL you are saying that a company should piss off their current customers so they can attract new ones? I think it is safe to say you don't have a business degree.

To be honest i think your just ignorant. I got gw like 1 month after it came out and i would have quit ageeeees ago. If not for HA. Many people i know too also too would have quit. After finishing the props campaign, i went HA. AND OH LOOk. I loved it. Kept me intrested for a year now, something which pve couldnt do. Now i know people who purposely get new expansions or buy gw now for HA. I even recomended it to some friends who got it purposely for the HAing so what does this say to ur statement. Obviously not well researched."

_Thank you Mr. Death_ (Finally someone starts accepting valid points).

_fury