Curse

YukiShinzo · Feb 15, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

ANET needs to revert all changes to the original mechanics and then skill balance based on those old mechanics. Then after skill balancing, ANET can test new mechanics.

The problem with what ANET is doing at this point of time is their lack of having a controlled variable to compare new skill balances and new game mechanics.

lyra_song · Feb 15, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

jesus tap dancing christ.

You ask for a change.

They change it.

You complain.

Thanks Anet for removing Kill Count and letting us play 8v8

Anyways, imo, halls can never be "reverted". If Anet changes everything back to the way it was, people will still complain and rage.

Snirp · Feb 15, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Removing Kill Count in Hall of Heroes is not the same as removing Kill Count in Heroes Ascent, because we still have to play Kill Count games in broken tower and courtyard before we reach the Hall...

So if they really want to test Heroes ascent 8v8 without kill count, what about removing it from all maps and then test?...

Byzantine · Feb 15, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Well the thing about forums is that the people who actually enjoy and play this game are to busy playing to continually post on these forums. For this reason you are usually going to find mostly whining here.

Legendary Shiz · Feb 15, 2007, 04:30 AM // 04:30

People will never be happy, just stick to upgrading the OBVIOUS things. Which seems to be what they are doing. You wanted 8v8, you got it. Even though the skills weren't balanced around it, the new game types weren't made with 8v8 in mind.

They changed the obvious thing (6v6 to 8v8) but didn't seem to put much thought behind the rest of it. Either way, some will like it some won't.

byggryn10 · Feb 15, 2007, 04:46 AM // 04:46

I have heard ppl on both sides of the kill count maps. Personally, I have had some real thrills in the last 30 seconds of those matches. Maybe the real answer isnt all or nothing but a mix. Leave Broken as a kill map but change Courtyard to alter cap and let the HoH rotation still include both.

Tea Girl · Feb 15, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Half arsed change still doesnt fix the problems.
Remove kill count totally.

I agree.

As long as there are different rotation of maps in HA... I don't see why they can't just keep non-HoH alter map the way they are.

MilesG · Feb 15, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

I think the 8v8 with these maps/options are really good. I think they work well. I enjoy it.

Razz L Dazzle · Feb 15, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Changing everything to pre 6v6 would get quite boring. I played it for 12 months before then. The interrupt wars with seeking arrows and PD was just too boring a meta-game. Good changes would help HA, new maps would help as well.

I can obviously read the Randonway wants everything reverted but do you honestly think that is going to happen? Your whining in every HA thread won't help convince the game Dev's to change it.

The logical argument was quite funny. OF course not all want the old HA , i being one, but the new HA makes us long for when HA was fun.

The Silver Star · Feb 15, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Good start, but ANET still doesn't get it that all of the changes are unwanted and HA should be reverted to the original objectives.

I agree, tell me when they have 8v8 with what it used to be like and then ill play. Right now im bashing people on WoW atleast its more fun than playing an allaince battle with rewards.

As for this:

Quote:

I played it for 12 months before then. The interrupt wars with seeking arrows and PD was just too boring a meta-game.

That wasnt for 12 months, last time i checked PD and Seeking were brought in by Factions and lasted for 6 motnhs utnil 6v6 was brought in.

I think the following:

1. Everything reverted back.
2. Current HoH chest implaced.
3. Scared Removed.
4. New map 1v1v1 instead of scared.

Razz L Dazzle · Feb 15, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Silver Star

As for this:

That wasnt for 12 months, last time i checked PD and Seeking were brought in by Factions and lasted for 6 motnhs utnil 6v6 was brought in.

I'm not suggesting that Seeking and PD went on for 12 months, i was noting that i'd played 8v8 roughly that long. The 8v8 game i'm suggesting with new skills and old objectives would resort to interrupt wars, and song of concentration/ stability battles once again. This meta ,which was in place at the end of 8v8, was not particularly fun or skillful. (I realize Song came out with nightfall but with 8 characters this is how i'd imagine 8v8 under old system to work. Song/ stability and pure interrupt characters). I'd personally rather not resort to that style of meta-game. I'm not suggesting that 6v6 or current HA is as good as the old one but rather saying that the old 8 man HA, at the end, had quite diminished during the 12 months i'd played it. So i'd hope for some good changes to keep it fresh but many of the new changes aren't very fun, i'd agree.

I'd very seriously doubt they do a full rollback of all changes made to HA. So i'd rather people put energy into seriously evaluating the good changes A-net is making, while limited, instead of whining for everything to go back to the way it was.

Alleji · Feb 15, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Ok, so this will reduce the number of spike teams by... 5%?

Only 1/4 matches in halls were kill count.
Majority of the team doesn't even get to halls.
= Kill count still major part of the game
= People will use builds that work in kill count

GG.

Patccmoi · Feb 15, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Ok, so this will reduce the number of spike teams by... 5%?

Only 1/4 matches in halls were kill count.
Majority of the team doesn't even get to halls.
= Kill count still major part of the game
= People will use builds that work in kill count

GG.

I agree that it's kinda stupid.

When i saw 'removed kill count from the rotation' i was like 'great!' but i thought they meant remove it from Broken Tower and Courtyard...

I actually wouldn't even mind kill count as 1/4 HoH game, the problem is that kill count is a major map type in order to get to HoH.

Personally i'd hate them reverting everything back to how it was even more than what it is now though. You know, HA WAS quite barren at the end of 8v8 appart from the couple of guilds playing in there. Your friend list was likely more full cause it was full of people that were playing in HA then, but it doesn't mean there was much more people, you just don't have the people playing now on your friend list. And no, there wasn't 10 id districts at the end of holding HoH 8v8... is there many more now? No, i think about the same amount. But atm kill count is a problem too, i fully agree on that. But just keep in mind that not every1 actually liked holding meta, even big HA players (got some rank 9-10s in my guild and they liked the change more than the holding meta cause there was less build just packed full of defense), and that some players that WOULD like to HA also weren't there cause they just hated how HA was.

I agree that at this point it's more constructive to post about what's good and what can be made better than saying 'you don't listen bring back old HA now!' in every single thread. They clearly won't.

Personally i love the new HoH. Yes, it's harder to hold for 30 win runs, but i think that's actually good. A good team holding actually has some advantages in one map type (holding where you more or less got some free points at start) while being on the SAME GROUND as others in the other match types. If you're truly the best there, new HoH should let you win. And it's harder to just make a build designed specifically for HoH, which means you actually need more skill to keep winning in different game types against different teams over and over. Before if you were good at holding with a build designed specifically for it, that's all you really needed to have big fame runs even if you sucked at everything else (you still had to get to HoH, but there was so many hall skips...).

What i see as wrong is the kill count maps, no doubt about it, cause they favor spike teams too much.

Oceans Fury · Feb 15, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

It all comes down to, what people like more, and how much Anet gives a shit. Anet doesnt care about keeping us happy, for the 1000000th million time. Their goal is ATTRACTING NEW CUSTOMERS!!! Granted, they dont want to lose thier current ones for later expansions, so they come out with these updates. Well, I just think its funny that just because some Joe off the street buys GW, he thinks he's intitled to say "well this or that sucks, you need to change it." .....
NO YOU DONT. Do you think they give a shit about the one RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing customer whose got his panties in a wad because he cant get any fame anymore?
NO.
Thats wrong, but, thats the ONLY way Anet can get things done efficiently. Anet is doing business like people should live life, looking at the glass half full. Instead of thinking about the 50% of veterans they pissed of with one update, they're thinking about the 50% of the other players they just made happy, introducing a whole new set of players to the PvP community.Giving themselves a pat on the back while gaining 20x as many customers as they lost, because of the update.

Now, I dont know about all of you, but I see no reason to complain about anything. We all know for a fact, that Anet isnt exactly sprinting up and down the office halls, figuring out the next update.

The updates will come, and so will change. With change, comes rejection.
With enough rejection, eventually comes acceptance.

*TBH- I actually enjoy these new map changes. Instead of doing the same thing over and over in halls, you acutally have to configure your tactics for each different map, not knowing which one you get.

To me, the most excitment from winning doesnt come from the fact that I outspiked another group or that my build was better. It comes from the fact that after I win, I know that the reason I won is because I knew what to do with my build, when, who to send where, and everyone playing knew why they were being told to do so.

In essence, I love these new maps (not kill-count, I dont like that one) simply because they require tactics and versatility in builds so people cant just run gimmicks and expect to hold all night.

Bread Fan · Feb 15, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceans Fury

Thats wrong, but, thats the ONLY way Anet can get things done efficiently. Anet is doing business like people should live life, looking at the glass half full. Instead of thinking about the 50% of veterans they pissed of with one update, they're thinking about the 50% of the other players they just made happy, introducing a whole new set of players to the PvP community.Giving themselves a pat on the back while gaining 20x as many customers as they lost, because of the update.

You honestly think people are going to go out and buy GW because of HA? Are you delusional? If that were true AT ALL you are saying that a company should piss off their current customers so they can attract new ones? I think it is safe to say you don't have a business degree.

Divinus Stella · Feb 16, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

8v8 doesnt suit 3 way games, especially not when the objective is killcount.

Relic runs are the best part of HA and halls is always fun when its down to relics, Sacred Temples is the best map in HA by far, i dont think ive ever felt hard done to on that map as it rewards a flexible build, organisation and tactics rather than c+space and rigid spike builds, if anet can make more similar maps then HA would be awesome.

Faster and more aggressive skill balances would be another way of keeping people interested, after every major skill upadate more people play pvp, its only when the meta gets old that people lose interest, if anet cracked down on things like rit spikes quicker then i dont think people would have given up so fast on 8v8 HA, even a small change like making the dmg type of lamentation to lightning from armour ignoring and altering recharges would make the world of difference.

vapor311 · Feb 16, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

This is the most amusing part of all the changes that they've made to HA lately. Let's rehash what's been done so far. First you have the 8 man HA that has been around forever for all its good and bad. Then its changed to 6 on 6. Problem with that is that the maps and gameplay aren't balanced for 6v6. So after testing weekends and hoopla, maps are changed and objectives updated to to more conducive to a 6 on 6 format. Then it's changed to 8 v 8. Wha?
None of which solves the reason why people don't play HA. New players don't play HA because the fame divide is too great. There aren't enough people around pugging. When there aren't more people playing in the lower rungs of the tournament it becomes exponentially harder for newer players to earn fame and retain interest. While its cool to say that hey, I did it, so should all the other players after me, its not terribly productive. The environment that you played in is not nearly the same as it has been in the last 4-5 months. When HA was more active, you could be assured of playing at least UW and Burial before getting matched up with some quality teams that are just beyond your skill level. Even if you're just playing UW and Burial as a new player, you at least had the opportunity to win some games, and farm some fame. The problem there was that when the population declined, the new teams would skip to the deeper maps against more skilled competition, more often than not resulting in a loss. Generally you can only beat your head against the wall so many times before you give up.
Which brings up the other reason HA died. Veteran players left for a couple of different reasons, but when I talk to alot of people who've left, the number one reason I see is people who've gotten whatever emote they wanted and cashed out to do something else. I got my whatever and left. Sure, stale meta, and other things contribute, but ask around. There is a large amount of people who are just grinding it out till their next emote or don't play because they've already gotten it.
So what's that leave you with? People who are die hard HA'ers. People who have been playing for awhile and for whatever reason, HA is their game of choice. These are the people who want things to go back to the way they were. The problem is, things won't be the same without the players from the other groups playing.

Cass · Feb 16, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Blabla.

Killcount blows, but if you want to be lazy and not change that then just nerf some of the most overpowered spike skills. Start with ritualists Gaze from Beyond, but also look at Spirit burn and Nightmare weapon maybe. Then take a look at Invoke Lightning and Lightning Hammer. Etc.

Keep 8v8, it is the only serious format. Reduce the number of PvP instances if the # of players is such a concern (Jade Quarry anyone).

Lykan · Feb 16, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

jesus tap dancing christ.

You ask for a change.

They change it.

You complain.

Thanks Anet for removing Kill Count and letting us play 8v8

Anyways, imo, halls can never be "reverted". If Anet changes everything back to the way it was, people will still complain and rage.

Its no the change we asked for, kill count is still in place on broken and courtyard.

Divineshadows · Feb 16, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

if anet cracked down on things like rit spikes quicker then i dont think people would have given up so fast on 8v8 HA, even a small change like making the dmg type of lamentation to lightning from armour ignoring and altering recharges would make the world of difference.

The problem with the channeling skills at the moment such as gaze and spirit burn are that they cost a mere 5 energy, have aggressive recharges, a mere one second cast, and do *much* more damage than lightning strike despite not having armor penetration. Hell, even without armor penetration they do almost as much damage as lightning orb which costs 10 more energy and an additional second of cast time and can miss. A-net seems to think these skills are balanced by the conditionals on the skills (within earshot of spirit). Well, they're not.

I love GuildWiki's description of this skill:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildWiki

The damage from Lamentation ignores armor, making it more useful than it may appear. This is however balanced by the long recharge.

Yeah. So. 1/4 second cast. Foe within earshot of a spirit (a condition that a team with 6 rits should have no problem meeting). Ignores armor. But has a 20 second recharge. Sounds real balanced to me...