Curse

Earendil · Feb 08, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

A combination of Ranger spike and Blood-like spike

4 x R/Rit
12 channeling
13 expertise
10 marksmanship

Vampiric bow +5 energy

1. Elite (options: Offering of spirit, Prepared stance, Escape...others)
2. Seeking arrows
3. Nightmare weapon
4. Dual shot
5. Distracting shot
6. Sight beyond sight/antidote signet
7. Favwinds/Blodsong/some ranger defensive stance
8. Res sig/FomF

One spike (dual + dist) under level 12 OoV does 180 life steal. From one ranger. x4 = 720. How do you couter that ?

Support (remote) duo:

D/N
12 Blood
12 Mysticism
11 Earth prayers

1. Order of the Vampire
2. Faithfull intervention
3. Vital boon
4. Mystic regeneration
5.Imbue health
6. Signet of pious light/pious haste
7. Blood renewal
8. Ressurection Signet

Mo/E
16 Healing prayers
11 Protection
rest in Divine Favor

1. Light of deliverance
2. GoLE
3. Aegis
4. Heal Party
5. Protective spirit
6. Healing touch
7. Dismiss condition
8. Resurrection signet / Holy veil.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 08, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Spiking with Dshot is pro. Seriously. Whoever would have predicted 2 years ago people would spike with a skill that does 13 dmg?

Earendil · Feb 08, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Spiking with Dshot is pro. Seriously. Whoever would have predicted 2 years ago people would spike with a skill that does 13 dmg?

I did my Paladin Detect Sarcasm check and found nothing...maybe I need more ranks in it?

It's true that in this build the arrow damage is completely irrelevant. I took Distracting shot over Savage mostly for the lower energy cost (2 compared to 5). They still do the same 60 life steal damage and Dsot has other utility uses.

The fun part is that if you find your unblockin somewhere else (rigor, Anthem of Guidance) you can effectively drop Markshamnship to 0 and use a Vampiric Candy cane bow (jk) and still be just as effective.

Seriously now - I want feedback on this build. Does it suck ? Does it own ? Has it already been done to death without me kowing it ? (seen the Spearmen running a Rit/R variant, and another guild doing it in GvG)

riddik darksky · Feb 08, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

maybe add in reed of the wind so u don't need a follow up spike? from how i understand nightmare wep, i should steal life off reed and normal bow dam too. then u can have dis shot for hitting important skills during the 10 sec down time.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 08, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

I think it's broken yes.
I wasn't really being sarcastic. I think spiking with a skill that does 13 dmg, and better, spiking so that it actually kills something, is pro. It requires some creativity to think of that.
Now for an attempt on some constructive feedback: I would go Rt/R for the higher channeling. If you can insert a paragon somewhere it would rock, because you can do a lot of fun things with those attribute points. You're planning on using this in HA, so you could probably get away with 3 spikers and a paragon. (who can contribute a little to the spike as well, namely a deep wound).
I don't think it sucks at all. The contrary rather than anything.

Earendil · Feb 08, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by riddik darksky

maybe add in reed of the wind so u don't need a follow up spike? from how i understand nightmare wep, i should steal life off reed and normal bow dam too. then u can have dis shot for hitting important skills during the 10 sec down time.

NW life steal is not dependent on arrow damage. Even if your arrow does 1 damge you still steal 42. Thats a topic of debate if its actually a bug or a feat.
RTW would then only help with arrow speed. Seeking can help with getting through blocks - major counter to the build.

The Rit/R version of the spiker has a higher damage NW (53 compared to 42) but, IMO, has more energy issues and is lower on survival, being squishy and all (except if they go Restoration too). A Rit/R cant affort seeking arrows and need the block counter somewhere else.

Energy math discussion follows.

The full ranger spike (NW, Dual, Dshot) at 13 expertise costs 5+5+2 = 12. This means you can do spikes on recharge (every 11-12 secs).
Assuming you need Seeking arrows, its an extra 7 energy. 2 options here:

With Prepared stance SA lasts for the second spike. The total cost of 2 spikes is: 2 (PS) + 7 (SA) +2 * 12 = 33 energy - meaning a reasonable 2 Seeking covered spikes per 30 secs is doable.

With Offering of spirit, you gain enough energy to power SA but the recharge time makes it available only each two spikes. So you'll spike more often but get SA only one in two spikes.

If you go Rit/R, the cost of the spike is 5+10+5 = 20 - that covers the Rits income for 15 secs. You can take Offering of spirit to power the 15 energy seeking arrows (or restoration spells) but IMO it`s harder to pull. Might be wrong. Rits also have lower armor but could compensate maybe with restoration skills...But rangers have the lovely expertise defensive stances...

PS: The Paladin Detect Sarcasm skill was a reference to a webcomic.

Divineshadows · Feb 08, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

Thats a topic of debate if its actually a bug or a feat.

Yep, nightmare weapon is totally broken. Seems like a bug to me. When you can bring a mid-line weapon ritualist into TA to toss weapon of fury and warmongers weapon onto your melee and also toss nightmare weapon onto your monk so that they can also deal damage (and self heal in the process) by chucking spears at foes, then you know something is wrong with the skill. Heck, you still have plenty of room on your bar for other goodies like weapon of warding and vengeful weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

One spike (dual + dist) under level 12 OoV does 180 life steal. From one ranger. x4 = 720. How do you couter that ?

As for how to counter your the build you listed? Hex up your spikers good with several miss hexes such as blurred vision, price of failure, spirit of failure, reckless haste, etc. That build just so happens to have no hex removal. If the team playing against this build has an aegis chain and shields up, then interrupting a couple of the seeking arrows is also an option. The last option is to knock down two of the rangers during every spike, but this is very difficult to pull off. Other than these options I guess you'd just have to do your very best denying line of sight. Any particular reason the D/N has 12 blood instead of 11?

Earendil · Feb 08, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Yep, nightmare weapon is totally broken. Seems like a bug to me. When you can bring a mid-line weapon ritualist into TA to toss weapon of fury and warmongers weapon onto your melee and also toss nightmare weapon onto your monk so that they can also deal damage (and self heal in the process) by chucking spears at foes, then you know something is wrong with the skill. Heck, you still have plenty of room on your bar for other goodies like weapon of warding and vengeful weapon.

As for how to counter your the build you listed? Hex up your spikers good with several miss hexes such as blurred vision, price of failure, spirit of failure, reckless haste, etc. That build just so happens to have no hex removal. If the team playing against this build has an aegis chain and shields up, then interrupting a couple of the seeking arrows is also an option. The last option is to knock down two of the rangers during every spike, but this is very difficult to pull off. Other than these options I guess you'd just have to do your very best denying line of sight. Any particular reason the D/N has 12 blood instead of 11?

I also happen to think Nightmare weapon is broken (not bugged - it works exactly as it was intended to - its just overpowered). I've posted my thoughts about this on several forums during the first test weekend (so I did what I could). So did others, more visible then me (Ensign in his review mentions it being overpowered).They changed the 2-5 to 3 attacks - 2 would have been better probably. However - till this becomes the FoTM I doubt there will be a major nerf.
It is broken mostly because it carries big amounts of the hardest to counter form of damage in GW - life steal.

As for counters...I was mostly thinking of defensive counters (infuse and dodging are the only ones IMO...maybe divine intervention? does it trigger on life steal ?). Even boon RoF is out of question since damage packets are actually 0.

As offensive counters...some hexes work, namely price of failure, reckless haste (spikers should really try not to stay grouped anyway) and Blurred vision. Note that if you have 50% chances to miss on two rangers at the spike, you will still get hit by an average of 9 arrows x 60=540. Same thing if you have aegis up and interrupt two seeking arrows. Gale-ing /KDing one single ranger will also not remove the danger ...just make it lower.
Hexes like Spiteful spirit or Spoil victor, or Insidious Parasite are a lot less effective. That was the reason for no hex removal - except for Blurred vision there is no other totally disabling hex (at least none used frequently).

I was also thinking in terms of Diversion on NW or dual shot and maybe even Blackout as potential offensive counters. And dont forget edenial with things like malaise, wither and panic.

Edit: you're right about the blood at 11. Thx - did not notice.

Divineshadows · Feb 08, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

As for counters...I was mostly thinking of defensive counters (infuse and dodging are the only ones IMO...maybe divine intervention? does it trigger on life steal ?).

As far as monk counters go, infuse is the only option. The only other strong anti-spike option -- spirit bond -- doesn't work against this spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

As offensive counters...some hexes work, namely price of failure, reckless haste (spikers should really try not to stay grouped anyway) and Blurred vision. Note that if you have 50% chances to miss on two rangers at the spike, you will still get hit by an average of 9 arrows x 60=540. Same thing if you have aegis up and interrupt two seeking arrows. Gale-ing /KDing one single ranger will also not remove the danger ...just make it lower.

No, those are defensive counters that are done so that your infuser actually comes into play. 540 life steal is not enough to kill anyone in PvP nowadays, but it will put them close to death and give your infuser a window in which to infuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

I was also thinking in terms of Diversion on NW or dual shot and maybe even Blackout as potential offensive counters. And dont forget edenial with things that drain energy.

Diversion and blackout could work ok, but diversion would only work against preventing future spikes and you'll still end up having to rez. Direct e-denial is not so hot against rangers. Panic covered by ether phantom on a ranger, now that's another story

. I could see some of those miss hexes I mentioned (the failures, blurred, reckless haste) being paired well with ineptitude and clumsiness to mess over spikes like this.

Earendil · Feb 08, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Come to think about it, if I had to build something against this, I would have a Migraine mesmer/interrupt ranger staying on one ranger and interrupting/disabling Nightmare Weapon and a Gale caster or Hammer war staying on the other and trying to stop the Dual shot. Removing 2 rangers of 4 does give plenty of time for the monks to counter. And both characters (Migraine Mesmer and Gale/KD user) have plenty of other uses so you dont ruin your build by taking specific counters.

Still....It would not be easy - one misclick and you have to res.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 08, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

If I was going to build to beat this I would simply run dual Mor dom mesmers, one with gale, and a grenth's + other melee.

Constant diversion on 2 spikers, interrupt the OoV, gale another spiker. They might get one spike off, but after that they'd be useless. Then the grenth's derv would simply rip through the order's derv, and GG.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 08, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

No, those are defensive counters that are done so that your infuser actually comes into play. 540 life steal is not enough to kill anyone in PvP nowadays, but it will put them close to death and give your infuser a window in which to infuse.

In GvG, I would agree. People run around with at least 550 health there, and commonly 600+. In the 6v6 environment of HA however superior runes are much more common, meaning that a 540 spike will get you kills.

Saphatorael · Feb 08, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

You don't need points in Marksmanship. You won't steal less when you have 0 Marksmanship; solely when you deal more damage than health you would've stolen, you'll get some extra, physical damage; and the spike itself should have plenty of damage.

Oink The Pig · Feb 08, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Umm, yeah... The Spearmen were running Rt/R spike last weekend in HA. They plowed through the team I was on pretty quickly. I believe they ran it with 4 Rt/R and 2 Necros. As the RC prot, there wasn't a whole lot that I could do against it.

Since the spike relies primarily on Nightmare Weapon, you don't need Marksmanship at all. At 16 channeling, you do 53 life steal, so you do 159 on the spike per spiker. Just go Dual->Distracting after you get the weapon up and laugh at the prot monks who didn't bring Guardian on their bars. It's pretty disgusting, and you have plenty of space on your bar for other fun stuff. Order of the Vampire helps, but really isn't necessary.

As for trying to Diversion the spike, they can weapon up before you can get in range, and probably get their spike off as you're coming in. Pre-prot with Prot Spirit won't save you, nor as previously mentioned would Spirit Bond. So you're basically looking at Aegis, Shields Up, Displacement, and other block skills.

Earendil · Feb 08, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

If I was going to build to beat this I would simply run dual Mor dom mesmers, one with gale, and a grenth's + other melee.

Constant diversion on 2 spikers, interrupt the OoV, gale another spiker. They might get one spike off, but after that they'd be useless. Then the grenth's derv would simply rip through the order's derv, and GG.

Having two dom mesmers is a good counter, agree, but its maybe hard to pull in a 6v6 environment where you have to counter other builds too. It's true IMO that standard spell countering (shame could work to) is the way to disable the rangers.

The D/N is remote, with the monk - they stay back at the limit of the radar, so its hard to interrupt him. If a grenth comes alone - the duo should be able to survive. Not to mention that a Grenth would be my first spike target anyway

. Both Grenth and Melandru get to fight the bonus elemental armor of the rangers.

I agree (and said it already) that you could go 0 Marksmanship, if not for Seeking Arrows who has to be at a decent level, especially if used with Practiced stance to cover two spikers. Seeking arrows make Aegis, Guardian, Shields up and all blocking based defenses obsolete. And I also presented my reasons for R/rit vs Rit/R

lishi · Feb 09, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

against aegis / shield up blind(Sight beyond sight will last only on 50% of spikes) hex team , possibly bad spike , walls i think you will fail some spike.

and then with your defences any team will be able to kill you very fast

maybe in 8v8 but in 6v6 definitly not

Ecko- · Feb 09, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

If I was going to build to beat this I would simply run dual Mor dom mesmers, one with gale, and a grenth's + other melee.

Constant diversion on 2 spikers, interrupt the OoV, gale another spiker. They might get one spike off, but after that they'd be useless. Then the grenth's derv would simply rip through the order's derv, and GG.

True..but how many people are running two mesmers in HA? Also there is no way to know you are going to be facing this build :P.

Overall I think the build is good but maybe could use a bit more defense if you could fit it in there somewhere.

Morgoth the dark · Feb 09, 2007, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecko-

True..but how many people are running two mesmers in HA? Also there is no way to know you are going to be facing this build :P.

Overall I think the build is good but maybe could use a bit more defense if you could fit it in there somewhere.

eurospike maybe?
but dunno if they both have diversions :P

Thomas.knbk · Feb 09, 2007, 10:48 AM // 10:48

All dom mesmers have diversion. Diversion > you

Earendil · Feb 09, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Diversion is only effective if it catches Nightamre Weapon. The spikers have disposbale fast cast skills to cancel it (if they can't just wait through). Shame is in the same situation. Interrupting the NW might be the best choice for a mesmer.

Anyway - while the concept of the Rspiker is effective, the proposed defence of the described 6v6 build here kinda sucks - have to admit after testing

. 8v8 (and GvG) open a lot of other options mostly around a classic 2 monk/1 support char based defence.

For 8v8 HA I would go 5 Rspikers (redundance FTW), 2 monks and 1 support char (with or without OoV). I am tempted to add a PP/shatter mesmer there (or other source of DW).

Anyway - feel free to use the build and improve it as long as you share your improvements with us