Curse

FoxBat · Feb 02, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

The point of SR is to give the Necromancer energy management. To say it is a problemed attribute, is equivalent to Touch Rangers abusing Necro touch skills because expertise effects them. You all wanted to make expertise not work for touch skills also, if I am correct?

Yes. The touch necro skills are utterly useless to necro primaries because they have expertise costs tacked onto them. Any other spammable touch skill that might be invented will suffer a similar fate. Now jagged has been rebalanced because it's been recognized as such an incredible team emanagement skill, with the minion damage as a comparatively minor bonus, as opposed to the probable original intent of a minion machine that stands a chance in PvP modes with few and unreliable corpses.

If it weren't for kill count mechanics, you'd still see the nerfed jagged in HA. People run necro healers for the cruddy bonuses from a spirit spammer, 12+ energy every 7 seconds under QZ (effectively 10+ish pips of regen) sounds much better to me.

Phades · Feb 02, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Yes. The touch necro skills are utterly useless to necro primaries because they have expertise costs tacked onto them. Any other spammable touch skill that might be invented will suffer a similar fate.

Er what? 10e is hardly "expertise cost" for the bulk of the necromancer skills. The 15e-25e animate spells/wells are inflated due to soul reaping. Other skills are priced relativly in terms of power rather than function and happen to also fit better on the expertise reduction due to spamability. Then again, lightning touch was reduced in cost from 15e, but that skill is relativly useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gupta

Now jagged has been rebalanced because it's been recognized as such an incredible team emanagement skill, with the minion damage as a comparatively minor bonus, as opposed to the probable original intent of a minion machine that stands a chance in PvP modes with few and unreliable corpses.

If it weren't for kill count mechanics, you'd still see the nerfed jagged in HA. People run necro healers for the cruddy bonuses from a spirit spammer, 12+ energy every 7 seconds under QZ (effectively 10+ish pips of regen) sounds much better to me.

Soul reaping is causing this, not jagged bones. Jagged bones only highlighted the problem in bold text.

Patccmoi · Feb 02, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Er what? 10e is hardly "expertise cost" for the bulk of the necromancer skills. The 15e-25e animate spells/wells are inflated due to soul reaping. Other skills are priced relativly in terms of power rather than function and happen to also fit better on the expertise reduction due to spamability. Then again, lightning touch was reduced in cost from 15e, but that skill is relativly useless.

Soul reaping is causing this, not jagged bones. Jagged bones only highlighted the problem in bold text.

He said touch skills had expertise cost, i.e. Vamp Touch and its cute copy, not the full Necro skill set! 15E for Vamp Touch is badly overpriced for a necro primary.

As for Jagged Bones, i think they pretty much killed the skill. The only way you could actually use it now is under QZ.

And you think seriously that this will end SR abuse? Hell, with the new stats on spirits i can easily have a spirit spammer getting 1 spirit dying every 3s for the full game duration without ever running out of energy, which can still give EProd level regen to other Necros in the team (+6E every 3s, or +6 pips). It's still not Jagged Bones ofc, but it's just an example of SR abuse still being very possible. They just patched the problem once more, and another SR abuse is just waiting to come out.

And by patching the problem they once again destroyed a skill that is now absolutely pointless cause it basically gives you 1 more minion every 15s, which is pointless in PvE (might as well carry that Flesh Golem around) and not enough to warrant a build in PvP since you can't use it to repeatedly bomb, etc. So... the only chance to ever see it again IS part of an SR abuse build that would run under QZ. Yay, great change...

Laden Swallow · Feb 07, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

My analysis of current soul reaping (excluding actual numbers):
Something dies, the necromancer gains a burst of energy to immediately start casting something else whilst the enemy is weakened to allow for a greater push.

For instance with soul reaping 5, a necromancer would currently gain enough energy to instantly cast another (albeit 5) energy skill to promote further death. In 5 seconds of +3 energy regeneration, the necromancer will also have gained an additional 5 energy, but, in all likelihood, the opportunity to 'push' the enemy harder will be gone (ALL resurrection skills can now cast quicker than 5 seconds if I remember correctly).

Barring hexes and conditions, a team with 8 half healthy players (with energy) can bring more force to bare than 7 fully healthy players (with energy) and 1 dead player in the short term, by virtue of having more players available to activate skills.

Until recently, the only necromancer skills that would aid self energy management would be:[*] soul reaping, minions (storing energy now for later),[*] offering of blood, consume corpse (requires reasonable health and a corpse respectively),[*] secondary profession skills.

With Nightfall, the options have increased with the inclusion of more soul reaping skills, or skills that promote the effects of soul reaping (another type of dual minion (shamblers), 'cheap minion' (jagged bones - requires a pre-existing minion)). However, a basic premise of Guildwars is that a player should be able to grab any chapter and at least be competitive with someone using all chapters, the player using all chapters should only have more options.

My suggestion, albeit without much weight (haven't played significantly in a while), would be to apply the 'invulnerability' buff, that exists after battle, before battle to revent deaths until the timer starts. Now if the team wishes to continue using minions created from themselves to manage their energy, so be it, however they would lose the first 10-20 seconds to get upto (from watching observer mode) the initial 4 minions with jagged bones enchantments, and for those 10-20 seconds be down 2-3 players (the person that sacrificed, the person resurrecting, the person animating), and the energy engine wouldn't be set up before damage could be inflicted.

Or I could be talking a load of balls (abrupt ending, lecture to attend).

Thomas.knbk · Feb 07, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Necros can make their way back into GvG possibly with this one elite, yet that bothers people for that same reason.

I don't think that's a reason to not nerf JB or SR at all.
Suppose a profession was completely useless, exept for one skill which would be an instant cast instant death spike. This would not be viable on secondaries. Would you not nerf that skill because it's the only thing keeping that profession in GvG?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

yet that bothers people for that same reason.

Wrong. It doesn't bother me that necro's make a comeback in high lvl GvG. It's the way they do it that bothers me: through an obviously overpowered exploit of game mechanics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Necromancers are powered by death in all of its forms, so to say when a minion dies it shouldn't give energy is contradictory.

Game Balance > Lore in case of skill changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

I hope this is then end of soul reaping abuse so the mechanic is sure to be left alone.

I hate to bother you, but it isn't. People are still abusing Soul Reaping with spirits until they find a better way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Er what? 10e is hardly "expertise cost" for the bulk of the necromancer skills.

I would consider 15 energy for a skill that steals ~70 health and requires you to be in touch range an expertise cost. It would be balanced at a 10 cost, because it requires you to be in touch range with your 60 armor target. The only problem is that rangers would use it even more effective.
Not letting expertise affect them is key.

Phades · Feb 07, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

He said touch skills had expertise cost, i.e. Vamp Touch and its cute copy, not the full Necro skill set! 15E for Vamp Touch is badly overpriced for a necro primary.

Meh, 15e is overpriced for any primary execpt rangers. That kind of cost is not meant to be sustained apperantly. I did mention how lightning touch was reduced in cost from its original value of 15e though. Bringing up expertise abuse to attempt to justify soul reaping abuse is pretty weak though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

And you think seriously that this will end SR abuse?

Nope, hurray for bandaids....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I would consider 15 energy for a skill that steals ~70 health and requires you to be in touch range an expertise cost. It would be balanced at a 10 cost, because it requires you to be in touch range with your 60 armor target. The only problem is that rangers would use it even more effective.
Not letting expertise affect them is key.

I agree, but ANET has been rather stubborn in the attempt to curtail expertise globally affecting skills outside their profession lines. What they did do at the release of ch3 was helping prevent rangers posing as paragons though or trying to use dervish stances. In all likely hood there were others that i cant think of atm (sick atm), but it was disapointing to see them leave it half done.

Kashrlyyk · Feb 25, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

What about the synergy between soul reaping and death penalty?

No matter what suggestion they follow, 45% less health means 45% easier to get energy. No other class has such a big profit from death penalty.
Throw in some all protection ignoring skills and I am not sure that soul reaping is fixable.