Curse

Phades · Jan 28, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

One thing I'd like though is if instead of this:
'whenever something dies, you gain +3 energy regeneration for 1..12.16 seconds'
it would be like this:
'whenever something dies, you gain +1..3.4 energy regeneration for 10 seconds.'

They could make both sides scale, if scaling is going to be that much of a concern in the long term. I am sure you have a similar memory about how infrequently necro primaries were used prior to spirit spam, ranger spike and variations of IWAY were the most common. Now they are just energy engines for secondaries mostly. I am pretty sure that some people within the thread would agree that evening out the energy gain over time would still be useful, but not cripple the class by being overly conditional

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

And here you have the actual problem with SR. It's perfectly fine when it happens beyond your control, but totally broken when people can make it kick in at will.

Not really, considering you essentially have a inactive main attribute unless someone dies, which made the profession as a primary largely unpopular prior to ch2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

If you make it so that the SR energy gain is uncontrolable such as by limiting it to only when creatures die of combat, it will be fine. This will eliminate things such as spirits and minions from the equasion unless the enemy team kills them, and at that point, it is totally out of your hands and totally dependant on the enemy team. They can easily do this... Just look at the survivor title, you only incur deaths from combat.

People complain about the survivor title not functioning properly between logouts. Then again since pets get DP you can always do this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It would work with something as simple as someone bringing a low-level pet to die in AOE.

Or have level 0 minions. The "simple" change you are proposing sounds rather complicated programming wise and still can be exploited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Once again, I'm not saying that SR is fine as it is, however, everyone is acting like this were some minor change that can be tossed in and be done with, when in fact it is a big-ass change that will totally need rethinking of a lot of the necro skills and a crapload of testing.

Adjust the corpse exploitation skills in a 5-10e range and implement the pip shift and its done. The the rest of the necromancer skills have nothing to do with soul reaping in that regard and mainly the animation skills have inflated costs to reflect that situation.

Ensign · Jan 28, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

'whenever something dies, you gain +1..3.4 energy regeneration for 10 seconds.'

I like this mechanic better than the version I proposed, it's a cleaner mechanic and rewards pumping the attribute higher regardless (you don't sit at low spec in a JB / Spirit build like in the other version.)

Only troubles are it having an effect at 0 Soul Reaping (it would need to give 0...4), and it having firm breakpoints with no benefit granted in between those (though Leadership does that now). If you get past those, I like this a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I am sure you have a similar memory about how infrequently necro primaries were used prior to spirit spam, ranger spike and variations of IWAY were the most common.

Most of that has to do with how bad the Necromancer's skillset is for PvP. You basically have three mechanics worth talking about, Soul Reaping, hexes (which until Nightfall Mesmers did better), and Minions / corpse exploitation. Order of Pain could go on that list but it's perfectly viable on a secondary. Hexes don't work well outside of a hex build, minions require a lot of infrastructure / dying (less so with JB), and Soul Reaping is a monster unto itself. In a general or balanced strategy, Necromancers have no place. They're basically bad Elementalists.

Peace,
-CxE

Saider maul · Jan 29, 2007, 08:04 AM // 08:04

your proposing changing the mechanic of soul reaping itself.

Soulreaping has gone thru 2 chapter totally untouched aside from the benefit from spirits. what is a hexer supposed to do. necro without the burst from soul reaping would not be able to function properly. your talking nearly the energy consumption of an ele but without the stack of energy in the bar.

I agree jagged bones does pose a problem but i wouldn't attack sould reaping because of it. I would change jagged bonds itself.

I would rather see soul reaping benefit removed from jagged bones skill then to see soul reaping reworked totally. I would even go as far as to see minions only giving soul reaping benefit to the controller.

changing soul reaping also changes the performance of many battery necro builds, Ally support necro's, Blood spike and degen necro's alike. along with giving a MM a much harder time raising/healing minions due to waiting on energy to regen rather then boosting you all at once as they die.

The proposed energy regen is a nice idea but it would not be as functional to a necro as you would think. Infact i feel this will break most builds PvP and PvE alike.

some questions to think about...

How would you spread the benefit of multiple foes dieing at once, how would you stack the duration, would the regens overlap in anyway.

Patrick Smit · Jan 29, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

your proposing changing the mechanic of soul reaping itself.

Soulreaping has gone thru 2 chapter totally untouched aside from the benefit from spirits. what is a hexer supposed to do. necro without the burst from soul reaping would not be able to function properly. your talking nearly the energy consumption of an ele but without the stack of energy in the bar.....

The mechanics of soul reaping could be touched by just adjusting energy gain from dying minions, as a counter the animate spells could be made cheaper, as proposed within this topic.

Another point on the energy bar of the eles, they have indeed have more energy, but thats just buffer. They do not have more energy regen, and therefore they need to pay the same attention to energy management as any class needs to do.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 29, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

your proposing changing the mechanic of soul reaping itself.

Soulreaping has gone thru 2 chapter totally untouched aside from the benefit from spirits. what is a hexer supposed to do. necro without the burst from soul reaping would not be able to function properly. your talking nearly the energy consumption of an ele but without the stack of energy in the bar.

This game should be very careful with mechanics in the form of 'gain X energy for every Y', because every time they're made a focus of they become hugely overpowered. Just look at Energizing Finale and Ether Renewal. Soul Reaping is in a similar situation now, exept that it's worse because it provides infinite energy for an entire team.
When something like this happens, Arenanet often has no other option than nerfing the crap out of it. (or 'to ether renewal' it) What we're trying to do, (at least, what I'm trying to do. I can't speak for others), is to adress ths problem while still keeping Soul Reaping viable for normal play. Look at this:
Whenever a creature dies you gain +0...3..4 energy regeneration for 12 seconds (it should be 12 and not 10 in order to keep the energy the same). Do the math. Through normal play, meaning in this case play in which 2 creatures do not die with less than 12 seconds in between, the energy gain is still the same. (well, it is at 0, 4, 8, 12 and 16 SR. In between those breakpoints you have slightly less benefit than you have now) However, the problem of abusing it with repeated deaths of minions and spirits is solved because the energy gain is more or less capped (at 4 pips, which is a lot but not as retarded as the current ~15 pips). It would make life harder for PvE minion masters, but 1: If that's the price to pay I'm willing to pay it (though I admit I don't play MM in PvE), and 2: I'm sure the prices of the animating skills can be balanced accordingly.
The primary point of this suggestion is that the energy regeneration does not stack (even if it did, it couldn't stack beyond 10), which makes quick repeating deaths way less powerful.
I hope I made you understand why I think this would be a good change, and I hope you can see why it is.
I have to admit, when I first heard the suggestion of changing SR mt first reaction was 'hell, no. JB is the culprit'. But when I thought about it, Soul Reaping really was the unbalanced factor. It was abused to a lesser extend with Spirits before this, and if you change Jagged Bones the necro's will bring a lvl 3 pet who dies in some AoE. Soul Reaping is a mechanic of the form 'gain X energy for every Y', and such mechanics are just waiting until someone makes a build around them.

Regards,
Thomas

Patccmoi · Jan 29, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Only troubles are it having an effect at 0 Soul Reaping (it would need to give 0...4), and it having firm breakpoints with no benefit granted in between those (though Leadership does that now). If you get past those, I like this a lot.

What do you think of what i proposed above?

Whenever a creature dies, you gain 1..4 (or 0..4) pips of energy regen for 10 seconds and an extra 1E for every 2 points in SR when a creature under your control dies.

So basically, you get the pips of regen AND MMs get also half what they get atm from their own minion death, and combined with the regen it should make up for the 'Soul Reaping tax' so that minion skills don't have to be reworked much. Considering it's only your own minions, i don't think it's that abusable cause MMs already need so much energy and time to cast those minions that it's not like they'll power crazy other stuff on their own bar. It would give PvE MMs slightly less energy (since they wouldn't get any extra from mobs dying considering their regen should be going on regardless) but they would still have more than enough to power a normal army.

There's also more 'breakpoints'. Sure you won't get any benefit between 8 and 9 (assuming breakpoints at 3-8-13) but that's the same as Leadership which only gives something every 2 levels. Most PvP Necros would likely go for 8 SR, which is a fair investment in a primary attribute limiting your others to 12-10 or 11-11.

Something might be needed for spirits though, with them either not working at all if they're not under your control, or giving half duration, or a fix 1 pip, i dunno.

Saider maul · Jan 29, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

and exactly what is this going to do to blood, curse hexers. nerfing soul reaping will change the entire mechanics behind the game.
This is one of my 4 primary classes for pvp.

I compare the necro's energy consumption to an ele because the necro is right up there with the energy usage of the ele. But ele's have energy storage skills to boost there energy. the only thing ele's have to do is make sure they dont have to much to counter the negative effect of ether prodigy, or manage their energy to control their exhaustion. your talking about giving the necro a weak form of ether prodigy built into the mechanics.
you are going to destroy this class with a patch like this. This will effect more then just MMing.

If this happens. I will do one thing. i will liquidate the time i have invested in my account on ebay and thank anet for over $1000 then go buy WoW or EvE.

They severly weakened the rit for pvp, and if they dmg the necro thats half of what i primarily play.

how many of you posting actually play a necro primarily in competative play?

because i dont think you understand the extent of what you are suggesting.

Lord Mendes · Jan 29, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

OMG I can no longer abuse soul reaping!
/rage!

Saider maul · Jan 29, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I do not play MM nore do we use one in HA/GvG. so no i do not abuse soul reaping. but nice try. I actually never agreed in MMing especially in PvE. MMing in PvP shows its face mostly in AB's.

Again i respectfully ask for those who play a necro competativly to speak on the issue.

this solution will fix JB MM's in pvp but it will greatly hurt every other Necro build to date.

Patccmoi · Jan 29, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

and exactly what is this going to do to blood, curse hexers. nerfing soul reaping will change the entire mechanics behind the game.
This is one of my 4 primary classes for pvp.

I compare the necro's energy consumption to an ele because the necro is right up there with the energy usage of the ele. But ele's have energy storage skills to boost there energy. the only thing ele's have to do is make sure they dont have to much to counter the negative effect of ether prodigy, or manage their energy to control their exhaustion. your talking about giving the necro a weak form of ether prodigy built into the mechanics.
you are going to destroy this class with a patch like this. This will effect more then just MMing.

If this happens. I will do one thing. i will liquidate the time i have invested in my account on ebay and thank anet for over $1000 then go buy WoW or EvE.

They severly weakened the rit for pvp, and if they dmg the necro thats half of what i primarily play.

how many of you posting actually play a necro primarily in competative play?

because i dont think you understand the extent of what you are suggesting.

... are YOU using a Blood/Curse Necro in PvP out of a Jagged Bones build? Cause if you are... Soul Reaping is already actually bad for you. Those suggestion (giving regen) actually buff SR when it's unreliable because it becomes more controllable (i.e. you won't gain +10E when you're full and waste it, if you're full you'll get high e regen and know it's time to spam).

The suggestions are only a nerf to team builds abusing SR. With the suggested changes, you get the same net energy (if not more) from casual deaths unless everything dies at the same time (and then... big deal? They're all dead, or all your team is, and that energy difference will hardly matter). Blood/Curse isn't actually balanced with having infinite energy in mind, so i don't see why that SR abuse will nerf. Ofc if you're one of those Spiteful Necro doing AEcho-Spiteful under QZ because a Jagged Necro is fueling your energy, you might find it slightly harder to achieve... but then again 1 Necro keeping Spiteful up on 6 players on his own might be broken.

I play Blood and/or Curse Necro often enough and i actually don't have any kind of trouble without SR. I think that if you're not in a build actually abusing SR but you're relying on SR, something is just wrong anyway because SR is so freaking unreliable in general that you can't count on it at all and if your build rely on SR it'll fail you when you need it the most (stalemates, etc. where you will slowly become worthless because your energy fails to hold and the other team will take over). Signet of Lost Souls is usually really good though. As is going /E for GoLE or /Me for Power Drain and/or Leech Signet. Or realize, with your ele comparison, that if ele has no built-in energy management (plz don't say EStorage is EManagement, it's nothing but a buffer) it's already damn good that Necros have one even if it's a 'weak ether prodigy'. Ether Prodigy is an elite causing exhaustion. Use Offering of Blood as Blood/Curse Nec and you usually have plenty, plenty of energy to use Necro skills.

As for your comment on Rt... unless all you played was Communing with 4-5 offensive spirit (RA?), the Rt suggested changes buffs Rts SO much...

Clamatius · Jan 29, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Most of that has to do with how bad the Necromancer's skillset is for PvP. You basically have three mechanics worth talking about, Soul Reaping, hexes (which until Nightfall Mesmers did better), and Minions / corpse exploitation. Order of Pain could go on that list but it's perfectly viable on a secondary. Hexes don't work well outside of a hex build, minions require a lot of infrastructure / dying (less so with JB), and Soul Reaping is a monster unto itself. In a general or balanced strategy, Necromancers have no place. They're basically bad Elementalists.

You missed the disease engine, which did pop up in pressure builds historically. Disease doesn't seem good in the current skill balance/metagame but it could be strong again later. But other than that, yeah. I think that the fact that most hexes only work really well in a heavy hex build is another serious balance issue that will have to be addressed at some point.

Saider maul · Jan 29, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

... are YOU using a Blood/Curse Necro in PvP out of a Jagged Bones build? Cause if you are... Soul Reaping is already actually bad for you. Those suggestion (giving regen) actually buff SR when it's unreliable because it becomes more controllable (i.e. you won't gain +10E when you're full and waste it, if you're full you'll get high e regen and know it's time to spam).

The suggestions are only a nerf to team builds abusing SR. With the suggested changes, you get the same net energy (if not more) from casual deaths unless everything dies at the same time (and then... big deal? They're all dead, or all your team is, and that energy difference will hardly matter). Blood/Curse isn't actually balanced with having infinite energy in mind, so i don't see why that SR abuse will nerf. Ofc if you're one of those Spiteful Necro doing AEcho-Spiteful under QZ because a Jagged Necro is fueling your energy, you might find it slightly harder to achieve... but then again 1 Necro keeping Spiteful up on 6 players on his own might be broken.

I play Blood and/or Curse Necro often enough and i actually don't have any kind of trouble without SR. I think that if you're not in a build actually abusing SR but you're relying on SR, something is just wrong anyway because SR is so freaking unreliable in general that you can't count on it at all and if your build rely on SR it'll fail you when you need it the most (stalemates, etc. where you will slowly become worthless because your energy fails to hold and the other team will take over). Signet of Lost Souls is usually really good though. As is going /E for GoLE or /Me for Power Drain and/or Leech Signet. Or realize, with your ele comparison, that if ele has no built-in energy management (plz don't say EStorage is EManagement, it's nothing but a buffer) it's already damn good that Necros have one even if it's a 'weak ether prodigy'. Ether Prodigy is an elite causing exhaustion. Use Offering of Blood as Blood/Curse Nec and you usually have plenty, plenty of energy to use Necro skills.

As for your comment on Rt... unless all you played was Communing with 4-5 offensive spirit (RA?), the Rt suggested changes buffs Rts SO much...

offering of blood..... sac in pvp.....LAWL.

I do not totally rely on soul reaping but it does keep things rolling as long as your team is working properly. I am saying that running as a solo necro in a HA or GvG i have minimal energy issues. Very true minions buff it tremendously But i am pointing out. take away the energy gain from minions death you do not control = no problem.
Change the mechanics of soulreaping in general = problem.

change soul reaping and there is a complete overhaul in need as alot of the high cost necro skills are that way because of the soul reaping energy burst.

as for rits. yes was kinda nice during the test weekend with what they did to the rit. however. they are limited in competative pvp and in may cases frowned upon due to other classes being more efficent in the role asigned.

No i do not run a spirit spammer in RA because i do not like to run builds that exploit the situation of the particular battle type. ( I.E RA is full of rushing idiots ) thus is why spirit spammers work so well there. ATM i prefer to play offensive support with the rit using vengful weapon/ weapon of remedy. Some times i do use spirits in GvG fortifying a backline while i run flag or spam for anti gank but is not my first choice of rolls for the class.

Ensign · Jan 29, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

what is a hexer supposed to do.

Erm, nothing? Hexers didn't run much, if any Soul Reaping until Nightfall - and now, they run Soul Reaping to get a decent Signet of Lost Souls (or, if so inclined, Reaper's Mark). Energy from things dying is just a bonus, you still need to be functional for long periods of time without anything dying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

changing soul reaping also changes the performance of many battery necro builds

Battery Necros are utter shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

Blood spike

Blood spike exists as a Soul Reaping abuse build - it relies heavily on multiple spirit deaths to keep going, and they usually have Animate Bone Minions (at level 0) as well to further power up Soul Reaping. It is really an excuse to get a whole lot of Monks into a build to hold the dais with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

How would you spread the benefit of multiple foes dieing at once

I wouldn't. The benefit from several things dying at once is the exact mechanic that this change is trying to remove.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

(well, it is at 0, 4, 8, 12 and 16 SR.

They could do it that way, or they could scale it like skills (and Critical Strikes) which would put the breakpoints at 2, 6, 10, and 14. For the higher breakpoint version they would need 12 seconds, sure - for the lower breakpoint version, 10 seconds would suffice.

Other options would be 0...5 at 3,6,9,12,15, 9 second duration, or 2,5,8,11,14 at 8 second duration; and 0...6 at 2,4,7,9,12,14. (at 7 seconds).

The shorter duration / higher pip count versions are more abusable, though, by having a higher potential cap through stacking...hence why I prefer the lower pip value solutions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

What do you think of what i proposed above?

Whenever a creature dies, you gain 1..4 (or 0..4) pips of energy regen for 10 seconds and an extra 1E for every 2 points in SR when a creature under your control dies.

That's a reasonable version as well, if for whatever reason they want to maintain the Soul Reaping taxes on minion spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

and exactly what is this going to do to blood, curse hexers.

It would make those characters, as singletons, stronger than they are right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

If this happens. I will do one thing. i will liquidate the time i have invested in my account on ebay

Threatening to quit the game if you don't get your way is always a great way to persuade people of the validity of your arguments.

If the door hits you on the way out, take pictures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clamatius

You missed the disease engine

Kinda, disease is nice but not worth a character on its own. Either it gets lumped in with one of the important Necro features, or you stash it on a secondary...it's similar to Order of Pain really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clamatius

I think that the fact that most hexes only work really well in a heavy hex build is another serious balance issue that will have to be addressed at some point.

Agree completely. Illusion and Curses have serious issues of only being playable in overload builds that marginalizes those professions - granted, Dom Mesmers are really good so that profession sees ample play, but Blood is trash and Necros correspondingly see little play outside of the gimmicks powering Soul Reaping.

Peace,
-CxE

Razz L Dazzle · Jan 29, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I'm not convinced that scaling soul reaping into Pip's of regen won't have its share of bugs and possible exploits. Plus if A-Net decides to rework soul reaping then a serious of other primary attributes should receive similar treatment. Strength seriously does nothing. Fix the problem of Jagged bones and minions becoming energy engines by limiting energy gain of minions to the summoner and some of the problem is fixed. Reworking soul reaping needs testing and more than just basic conjecture in the forums. The work done by ensign and others is in the right direction for PvP but far from complete. The impact upon PvE MM's sounds dreadful. The abuse of soul reaping should be tempered by adjusting the impact minions have upon allied necros. Any solution should keep PvE MM's viable because they are such a loved class by PvEers.

Saying just change the costs of Animate skills is just telling A-net to work through the bugs of the proposed change to SR. I'm not convinced A-net will decide to rework or use proposed changes to soul reaping in a timely fashion. So keep it simple.

-RAzz

Warskull · Jan 29, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

The solution is clear. Soul reaping should work just as it is, but when your energy is full for every point of energy you should have gained you take 10 damage! Maybe 100 damage would work better.

Saider maul · Jan 29, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

I am not threatening to quit i know that will persuade noone. I was stating that ruin half of what i play the game for and the game is not worth playing to me. Ebay is just an easy way of gaining a return on time invested. think of it as a CD with legality loophole as its time sold not actual property.
Sorry if this disturbs you but I manage in manufacturing industry. when you control 25+million$ a yr in sales everything breaks down to,Cost, efficency, and return.

Not my first rodeo son.

second i am glad to see you pic things apart like so many others do.
I listed several aspects of playing a necro to show how broad the spectrum of impact this change will have.

Yes soul reaping is now previlent on all necros to acheive a decent SolS.
Its part of the game now so get used to it.

Blood is not crap if so then why is spoil victor aligned with it and one of the top skills on the table of contraversy.
This proposed change will not buff the necro as you suggest but we will see.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 29, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

how many of you posting actually play a necro primarily in competative play?

I do. I have also done my fair share of abusing soul raping through spirits and later jagged horrors. So yeah, I think I know what I'm talking about here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

i do not abuse soul reaping

Then, as basic math will show, your net energy gain remains unaffected and you can continue to play necro as if the change never happened, exept that you now don't run the risk to fully waste the bonus because it kicks in when you're full.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

offering of blood..... sac in pvp.....LAWL.

There is nothing wrong with OoB. It's a top class elite.
And Pat C > you
BTW, since ensign seems to frequently visit this thread you can now finally ask a high level player (is world champion high enough?) if he can interrupt 1/4 sec casts. (no more will be said on this issue)

I will ask you again: do the math.
for the record, one pip of energy regeneration equals 1 energy every 3 seconds.
In a normal game situation creatures will not die within 10 seconds of each other, unless in a wipe situation from either side. In a wipe situation the extra energy gain will make little difference for obvious reasons.
12 seconds of +1 regeneration equals 4 energy. 12 seconds of +2 equals 8 energy, 12 seconds of +3 equals 12, and 12 seconds of +4 equals 16, assuming you don't hit your energy ceiling. However, you can start spending energy as soon as you see the bonus kick in, meaning you'd be stupid to hit your energy ceiling. Actually, the risk to hit your ceiling is much greater with the current mechanic because you can't start to spend energy as soon as you see the bonus kick in.
Thus, the only problem it addresses is the stacking effects, which scale up to the equivalent of 15 pips. It would also 'nerf' normal deaths within 10/12 seconds of each other, but a situation where two players die within 12 seconds that are not wipes are rare enough to pay that price in my opinion.

Saider maul · Jan 29, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

LOL you just never quit. its ok. If ego is what you wish to fuel fine. I am poseing questions and trying to show where this can be flawed.

also no one person is greater then any other. to think so show not only self insecurity issues it also is a sign of mental illness. No this is not my opinion its is proven by the American medical association. So call yourself better but it only proves you have psychological issues.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 29, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

LOL you just never quit. its ok. If ego is what you wish to fuel fine. I am poseing questions and trying to show where this can be flawed.

also no one person is greater then any other. to think so show not only self insecurity issues it also is a sign of mental illness. No this is not my opinion its is proven by the American medical association. So call yourself better but it only proves you have psychological issues.

I am trying to answer your questions basing my answers on logic and mathematics. If you still want to argue against it, be my guest, but don't be surprised if people disagree with you and agree with the logic and the mathematics. I do not wish to fuel my ego in any way. My self confidence is fine as it is. To be honest I could not care less what people on a forum, of which I don't personally know 99,99%, think of me. Please think I'm a tard if it makes you happy, but at least consider the fact that you may not always be right.

I did not call myself better that you, I called Patccmoi better than you, which he is. In previous posts in this and other threads and in the actual game he has shown a better understanding of game mechanics and balance than you. Replieng to a suggestion of using OoB with 'sac in pvp....LAWL' only proves this.

Anyway, you don't want to understand. I'm giving up. I'm going to bed. I hope that when I visit this forum again you will either have a better argument than ad hominem attacks about my mental health, or have stopped posting in this thread.

Good Night,
Thomas

Divineshadows · Jan 29, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

Blood is not crap if so then why is spoil victor aligned with it and one of the top skills on the table of contraversy.

Actually, as a skill line, blood is quite weak. There are really only two "money" skills in the line -- spoil victor and order of pain. Then there are a few mediocre skills (i.e. read playable, but not horrible) like offering of blood, life siphon, dark fury, mark of subversion, blood ritual, shadow strike, vamp gaze, and blood of the aggressor. Blood ritual is merely a net transfer of energy from one player to another. The blood "nukes" have the bonus of ignoring prots, but they actually became weaker in Nightfall because if you want your whole team to ignore prots you just use avatar of grenth.

The rest of the blood line are either extremely bad skills or very niche skills (such as blood bond, barbed signet, or soul leech) that are pretty inflexible in their applications.

The blood line suffers from a lack of strong depth. While this is true of the all of the necromancer lines, blood probably has it the worst. I actually saw a bar in observer mode last night making use of at least 3 blood skills and was in shock. Mostly Harmless was using a spoil/shadow strike/vamp gaze guy (not sure if he had life siphon) paired with an illusion hexer in a 6/2 split build. It looked fairly effective and together they could take out an NPC archer or a solo opponent team member pretty fast. Still it was quite unconvential and the first time I had seen that many blood skills on a single bar in GvG observer in a long time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

In a normal game situation creatures will not die within 10 seconds of each other, unless in a wipe situation from either side. In a wipe situation the extra energy gain will make little difference for obvious reasons.
12 seconds of +1 regeneration equals 4 energy. 12 seconds of +2 equals 8 energy, 12 seconds of +3 equals 12, and 12 seconds of +4 equals 16, assuming you don't hit your energy ceiling. However, you can start spending energy as soon as you see the bonus kick in, meaning you'd be stupid to hit your energy ceiling. Actually, the risk to hit your ceiling is much greater with the current mechanic because you can't start to spend energy as soon as you see the bonus kick in.

Thus, the only problem it addresses is the stacking effects, which scale up to the equivalent of 15 pips. It would also 'nerf' normal deaths within 10/12 seconds of each other, but a situation where two players die within 12 seconds that are not wipes are rare enough to pay that price in my opinion.

I agree with these points. Soul reaping giving the energy over time would give the receiver of the energy a chance to spend before hitting the cap. However, it probably would make little difference anyway in most situations, since they are unlikely to be so close to max energy anyway. It's not really much of a 'nerf' to normal deaths that are 6 to 12 seconds apart, because the duration would be restarted so it would not be a total loss.

Ensign -- would there be any potential for abuse if each death simply got tacked onto the end such that even if two opponents died at the same time you'd get 20-24 seconds of energy regeneration? I mean, the necromancer would still not be able to exceed 7 (or 8 at very high soul reaping) pips of regen, but there would be no waste.