Curse

twicky_kid · Jan 21, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Yes its broken don't think anyone can argue that.

I have an easy fix in mind. Add this:
Jagged Bones cannot enchant a Jagged Horror.

That should fix the problem. That way you have to have a minion from a corpse to be able to enchant.

THIS IS A PVP DISCUSSION ONLY

Apok Omen · Jan 21, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I agree.

Here are some scenarios if Anet makes the following changes to Jagged Bones without changing it like the above suggestion:

1) Increasing energy cost to 10. Bad Idea. Necros already get more than 10 energy when something fleshy dies, so this would only make it laughable.

2) Increasing recharge. Again, bad. The recharge of Jagged Bones is already dealt with by Quickening Zepher. Increasing the recharge will do nothing.

3) Increasing cast time. Will do something but will not stop the recycling process in which Necromancer's harness their energy. Yes, it will be interruptable, but there are way more important things to waste interrupts on against a build using all Necromancers with a JB Battery.

However, changing Jagged Bones so that it cannot be casted on Jagged Horrors will solve everything. Anet, please pay attention to this thread, thank you.

Terra Xin · Jan 21, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

That's a good suggestion. You can't make jagged bones... any more jagged...

Sniper22 · Jan 21, 2007, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Then that would completely defeat the purpose of the skill, just use diversion. Or you can be sneaky and remove the jagged enchant from the horror before the necro uses taste of death.

FoxBat · Jan 21, 2007, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Soul Reaping -> Half energy for minion deaths, 0 energy for spirits. This has been messing up HA in various forms for a while. It's called for whether or not jagged bones itself is nerfed.

twicky_kid · Jan 21, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Then that would completely defeat the purpose of the skill, just use diversion. Or you can be sneaky and remove the jagged enchant from the horror before the necro uses taste of death.

The purpose of the skill is to replace a minion when 1 dies. Since it gives you 2 you can keep your Minion numbers up without having to spam master of blood or heal area. I see no change to that tactic with the suggested change. I'd rather see this change than make it completely unusable in PvE.

Soul Reaping was balanced before JB was abused.

If this isn't put in 2 things are going to happen. JB will be nerfed to hell and back AND soul reaping will be too.

SodOffShotgun · Jan 21, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Or you can be sneaky and remove the jagged enchant from the horror before the necro uses taste of death.

You have got to be kidding....

Rieselle · Jan 21, 2007, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Why not just:

"Jagged Horrors give no SR energy when they die."

twicky_kid · Jan 21, 2007, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

Why not just:

"Jagged Horrors give no SR energy when they die."

Because it equals the same thing but lets you keep an infinte number of minion up at all times.

These guys do bleeding and 20+ dmg each. That is very strong as it is.

DarkCloudInc · Jan 21, 2007, 06:51 AM // 06:51

From a PvM stand point, its too cumbersome for me to manage using jagged bones as a player which is why I push that job on to olias/master of whispers because the computer has better management of using it.

From a PvP stand point, in which I have attempted, maintaining the army isn't anywhere easy because when you hit [alt] to view the allies, minions don't appear. You don't see the minions in the party list either So you have to browse your mouse over them literally to click on them and do the enchants which sometimes drags the mm into the frontlines.

I think its fine as it is. Though if they make it where it's half range, I'll meet you half way on that.

stueyman2099 · Jan 21, 2007, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Because it equals the same thing but lets you keep an infinte number of minion up at all times.

These guys do bleeding and 20+ dmg each. That is very strong as it is.

the problem with jagged bones is in soul reaping giving necros infinate nrg, not infinite minions. Jagged bones is about the only thing in the game making them playable in PvP, and even then you never see it becuase there are ussualy better options.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 21, 2007, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Because it equals the same thing but lets you keep an infinte number of minion up at all times.

These guys do bleeding and 20+ dmg each. That is very strong as it is.

Jagged Bones doesn't have an infinite number of minions. They have 6, or 8 if they're lucky.

My suggestion would be to still let them give full energy to their owner, but only a percentage to other necro's.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 21, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Personally, I think the skill is fine the way it is.

I have ranted and raved over matches (gvg) my team has lost to builds using this, but it's simply because we dont bring the right counters, not because the skill is rigged.

Any build that carries a mesmer or ranger can usually halt the minions long enough to cause some energy loss. Between energy denial, interuptions, and diversion on the mesmer to interupts on the ranger, that usually covers this. It's not just a specific "build" to counter Jagged spammers either, since these classes are good across the board.

Honestly, my guild was going to mess around with the Verata's Aura idea, just to turn some minions around once the enemy thinks they have won. Granted that is a "single build" counter, but that shows that there are both universal ways to stop the army, and specific ones as well.

At the most, soul reaping should be cut in half to rebalance this skill. Even so, that could make life a little more difficult for regular minion masters, but it may be necessary. If this skill get's hit in the areas of cast time or recharge, it's going to get slaughtered in the PvE playground (I care for both, ty). Most monsters will just turn around and slaughter your minions before the 5 second recharge, usually leaving you minion-less for much of the time.

Back to soul reaping being cut in half... this would solve the problem by slowing the hex engine down significantly. Necros won't stand if they arn't gaining energy from souls. Any seasoned Necromancer player knows this. If these Necro based teams finally have to pick and choose targets for the effective usage of thier hex arsenal (as opposed to spamming the skills on every target; thank you short recharge times), then that's going to help slow the pressure they apply, which is overpowered in the first place.

I think this skill is going to take one creative solution to be attuned safely for both PvE and PvP.

dgb · Jan 21, 2007, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkCloudInc

From a PvM stand point, its too cumbersome for me to manage using jagged bones as a player which is why I push that job on to olias/master of whispers because the computer has better management of using it.

From a PvP stand point, in which I have attempted, maintaining the army isn't anywhere easy because when you hit [alt] to view the allies, minions don't appear. You don't see the minions in the party list either So you have to browse your mouse over them literally to click on them and do the enchants which sometimes drags the mm into the frontlines.

I think its fine as it is. Though if they make it where it's half range, I'll meet you half way on that.

Nobody is talking about using it too actually *maintain* a minion army... Please get a grasp of the context before commenting.

HolyHawk · Jan 21, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

I don't really see a problem with the skill. It works well with those necro teams essencially because it's their battery. People already mentioned, but I do believe there are a lot of ways to deal with it; more especifically in these necro builds, it can add pressure but it's not the main source of pressure. Again, I'm not using the "plenty of counters" argument, but I think it doesn't require specifc ways to deal with it.

Soul reaping is a problematic issue, and should receive some focus. J. Bones is not as threatening as Avatar of Grenth or Spoil Victor, amoung some other skills I can thing off. And yes, if you know that there is only a minion wandering, you should time a shatter on his jagged and you will cut part of the energy engine of that build.

Perhaps, soul reaping should trigger only for the master when one of his minions dies. This when we talk about minions. That way, spirits can still give half energy globaly, and pets or foes give full energy.

TMWNN · Jan 21, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Jagged bones is tons more broken than spoil victor/grenth imo. infinite energy for the whole team?

sould reaping has caused enough problems imo, i say no soul reaping nrg from spirit or minions, player/npc deaths only. Even then it would still be very strong.

Sinful Doom · Jan 21, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I have an easy fix in mind. Add this:
Jagged Bones cannot enchant a Jagged Horror.

I think this is a perfect solution. For those of you who dont see a problem with JB in its currect state that's probably because your an exploiter of it.

twicky_kid · Jan 22, 2007, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

the problem with jagged bones is in soul reaping giving necros infinate nrg, not infinite minions. Jagged bones is about the only thing in the game making them playable in PvP, and even then you never see it becuase there are ussualy better options.

MMs in pvp really don't work. With or without JB a MM doesn't work.

It work in AB only because there is plenty of corpses and people auto res.

In GvG and HA by the time you even get 2-3 up they die instantly or the battle is over. JB wouldn't be used at all in pvp if you couldn't abuse it for SR.

At least my suggestion doesn't destroy it for PvE.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 22, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

For those of you who dont see a problem with JB in its currect state that's probably because your an exploiter of it.

I've only run Jagged in PvE and only fought against it in PvP. It's not overpowered.

At a 1 second cast time, it's easy to throw a distracting shot in there.

At a 5 second recharge, beating on the Master will cause them to eat up all of their minion before they can reapply the spell.

Get your beefy Avatar of Grenth on minion duty. Then they can cast all they want. Add banishing strike for extra fun if they are becomming such a problem (even though that a single build counter skill).

Minion masters cannot see the health of their minions. Stick a warrior on minion duty.

There are a million ways to beat this. "I think the only people that think this is IMBA are those who don't want to switch off their Searing or RaO builds!"- which ironically enough, work wonders for clearing minions. And btw, that was sarcasm there in the quotes.

Vermilion · Jan 22, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Add banishing strike for extra fun if they are becomming such a problem (even though that a single build counter skill).

Just a note: If JB is any kind of problem, you're in HA. Spirits are constantly used in HA, so banishing strike is more than worth the slot in this case.

On jagged bones, I don't know. Ive played it and played against it a lot, and the energy return once it gets started is pretty noticeable..I really just think if spirits give half Soul reaping bonus, then so should minions.