Curse

Razz L Dazzle · Feb 13, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

There were a lot of guilds that ran pressure builds look into it. In fact most ran pressure builds to some greater or lesser degree. One thing I noticed here is that no one who's arguing with me is even in a guild that's ON the ladder. Since you guys seem to want to call my credibility into account, I'm r6, been in top 200 guilds and have guested for several top 100 guilds.

Good and respected players don't have to self promote themselves. Other people do it for them, as you see people Stick up for Squidget, and other respected players.

So if you think that we're impressed by your resume or your rank 500+ guild atm, we aren't. Try making more sensible arguments rather than attempting to show off.

Dzan · Feb 13, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

There were a lot of guilds that ran pressure builds look into it. In fact most ran pressure builds to some greater or lesser degree. One thing I noticed here is that no one who's arguing with me is even in a guild that's ON the ladder. Since you guys seem to want to call my credibility into account, I'm r6, been in top 200 guilds and have guested for several top 100 guilds.

I was in a top 20 guild that ran pressure builds, and I think you're wrong. Does that mean the argument is over now?

heroajax1 · Feb 13, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

yay. personal attacks begin. glad to know you guys have no other arguments left in your arsenal. now maybe you actually listen.

razzle, i wasn't promoting myself. I was merely responding to the attempts at calling me a noob, which actually did come later on. our guild is rebuilding we'll be back to 200 don't u worry about it. I don't honestly care if you're impressed or not.

This will be my last post in this thread since you guys just keep saying the same things over and over and sound like complete idiots.

let's look at the facts.

1. the skill was overpowered. there's no question about that. how much overpowered is the debate.
2. people whined incessently about it until it got nerfed. rather than do the intelligent thing, which is to try and figure out a way to overcome an admittedly powerful skill, people whined.
3. it's now been nerfed to hell and is utterly useless.

after obsing about 20 gvg's last night, not a single team I saw ran a grenth dervish. yay, i've been proven right.

ok. now, just because a few people disagree with me doesnt' make me wrong. in fact, i'm absolutely right. after talking to people who are more qualified than myself about the nerf of grenth, we all pretty much agreed that a %% chance of enchant removal is actually a decent idea. the overpowered part of this skill is it's guarantee of removing an enchantment that's designed to protect. I don't think there's any quesiton about that. The problem people seem to have is that 1, the enchants don't do their job and 2, it makes them useless because of it. Nothing else seems to be causing any problems here. So, my original suggestion still applies, is valid and is most likely the way the skill should have been reworked. But, whiners win over at a-net i guess. Good job all on making yet another skill useless.

patccmoi, you do bring up some valid points as an overall philosophy, but specifically i'm not completely onboard w/you. i do see where you're going though.

So, here's my suggestion, go start a Melandru Dervish comlaint thread, 'cause that's the dervish elite that's going to get the nerf. I'll put 10 ingame plat on that right now. This has been an interesting discussion it's too bad people can't actually come up with decent ideas rather than just complaining.

Dzan · Feb 13, 2007, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

ok. now, just because a few people disagree with me doesnt' make me wrong. in fact, i'm absolutely right. after talking to people who are more qualified than myself about the nerf of grenth, we all pretty much agreed

It's not just a few, its everyone.

Divineshadows · Feb 13, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

ok. now, just because a few people disagree with me doesnt' make me wrong. in fact, i'm absolutely right. after talking to people who are more qualified than myself about the nerf of grenth, we all pretty much agreed that a %% chance of enchant removal is actually a decent idea. the overpowered part of this skill is it's guarantee of removing an enchantment that's designed to protect. I don't think there's any quesiton about that. The problem people seem to have is that 1, the enchants don't do their job and 2, it makes them useless because of it. Nothing else seems to be causing any problems here. So, my original suggestion still applies, is valid and is most likely the way the skill should have been reworked. But, whiners win over at a-net i guess. Good job all on making yet another skill useless.

You're an idiot. It's A-net's fault that they cannot hire another skill balancer and work out how to properly balances the overpowered skills in the game. At least A-net finally acknowledged that something had to be done to this skill, but they didn't go the right route with what to do with it. This is most certainly not the fault of the players of the game.

The effect is still overpowered, but the percentage of the uptime is so low now that it makes you wonder why you would bring this skill in place of other options. It's not what I wanted for the skill, but leaving a skill slightly underpowered as opposed to grossly overpowered is the lesser of two evils.

JR · Feb 14, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

You have to understand the theory around Avatar forms before you understand the reasons for the nerf.

the reason they are balanced as they are (with an uptime and a downtime) as opposed to the simpler route of having them up all the time is because of the concept. Izzy wanted Avatars to literally feel like godmode when they were up, they HAVE to be powerfull.

I played as a Grenth Dervish yesterday, and they are still effective. 38 seconds is enough time to make an offensive push that can break a team, but it means if you screw up or if they have the power to resist you have to wait a while longer. It makes it considerably less mindless than it was before.

Riotgear · Feb 14, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Izzy wanted Avatars to literally feel like godmode when they were up, they HAVE to be powerfull.

Izzy should still be able to realize when a concept simply looked better on paper than it's actually playing out. GW has never really had "ultimate" abilities, and the concept that it's okay to make overpowered I Win Buttons as long as they get stuck on recharge is sketchy, especially when morale boosts can be used to keep them up for extended periods of time.

Being "conditionally overpowered" may be balanced, but it's not what I'd call progress.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 14, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

OMG just bring Guilt noob
Someone should sticky that post though. Not this thread (hell, no), just that post.

Too bad guild only works on spells, not signets.

JUST BRING IGNORANCE N00B!!!11one1

Lord Mendes · Feb 14, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

LrN2aDapTT and run Wail of Doom noobs!
I'm sure heroajax1 will agree with me, after all he is rank 6 AND was in a top 200 guild. I didn't know that was possible until today... HaXXorS!!

The Anti Science · Feb 15, 2007, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Honestly, no it's not. It never was. Tons of pressure build never used much enchant removal at all. All you needed was to be intelligent and make good target choice and target switch. Have an interrupt or something to stop things like Aegis chains and that's more or less all you need.

You talk of Drain Enchant as if a 5s nerf and 2-3E less gained on it switched the whole enchantment control metagame. I agree that it was more used before, but honestly now i STILL think it wouldn't be used much in its current state because Me/E totally ignore inspiration and use GoLE as emanagement so they can have high dom + decent air and fast cast.

What Grenth allows is to IGNORE enemy enchants. Switching target already makes a single target enchant a small waste (not completely cause you forced a target change, but you'll have to do it again for next target), but Grenth makes them complete waste as it can just cut through every single one applied.

If Drain Enchant was still there, you would see Grenth just as much as you see him now because Drain Enchant NEVER offered anything CLOSE to what Grenth brings. Compare to other elite enchant removals, like say Shatterstorm. That can't remove anything close to what Grenth removes overall, and it's on constant recharge and you spend a lot of energy on it. Lingering Curses, Corrupt Enchantment... hell, even Dark Apostacy which is very close to Avatar of Grenth in effect isn't actually close in strength cause DA makes you lose energy and if you get to 0 it ends. Not to mention that it's an enchant with 2s cast so easy to interrupt (Grenth is 2 sec cast too, but 2s cast every 2 min that can be used out of range if needed).

Grenth turns pressure build into mindless trains. Good target picking? No need, just pick closest softie and stick your full team on his face. No need to switch if he gets prot or turns on a defensive stance, Grenth will get rid of all of it. It's seriously dumbing down the game, and there's a reason why so many teams run it atm, and it's because it's incredibly easy to feel like you're good at pressure when a Grenth makes sure the other team can't do anything about it.

If grenth wasn't so ridiculous, you could see Dervishes using Rending Touch for instance. If you see some nasty prot you don't want on target, remove it. It just has 10s recharge afterall. But atm Grenth >>> any other option, elite or non-elite, for enchant removal.

I really like the 10-15% sac idea. +2E to attack skills could work too.

I'm sorry to say this but you are all RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing whiners. The problem here is that you're all worried about the builds that are already created that have a maze of cover enchantments on top of the one that is core to that build. Suddenly when a skill comes up that has the ability to put real pressure on your builds, everyone rises up in arms. Instead of nuking the skill why don't we just see how good players you all really are?

Razz L Dazzle · Feb 15, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anti Science

I'm sorry to say this but you are all RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing whiners. The problem here is that you're all worried about the builds that are already created that have a maze of cover enchantments on top of the one that is core to that build. Suddenly when a skill comes up that has the ability to put real pressure on your builds, everyone rises up in arms. Instead of nuking the skill why don't we just see how good players you all really are?

Leave Grenth as God mode and see how good teams adapt thats your solution?? The game will have little variety in it. There would be no reason besides your own dislike of Grenth/Dervishes not to take it. You'd have to pack all the best counters to stop Grenth and derv's and then you'd be left with very few spots of originality.

when a skill comes up that has the ability to put real pressure on your builds, everyone rises up in arms ....Actually the skill was just overpowered and mindless to use but you obviously know nothing about game balance as the rest of your post suggests.

Whiners? --- Most are happy to see the skill become more balanced than it was, maybe you're crying about others whining b/c your RA noob farming build got destroyed. I'm sorry.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 15, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anti Science

I'm sorry to say this but you are all RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing whiners. The problem here is that you're all worried about the builds that are already created that have a maze of cover enchantments on top of the one that is core to that build. Suddenly when a skill comes up that has the ability to put real pressure on your builds, everyone rises up in arms. Instead of nuking the skill why don't we just see how good players you all really are?

Yeah, all people do is whine when one skill just owns an entire line. Strange, isn't it?
I wouldn't call it whining. When people complain they can't solo farm an area that wasn't supposed to be solo farmed because of a nerf, that's whining. When one skill > monks, I think it's more than righteous that people think it might need a change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

LrN2aDapTT and run Wail of Doom noobs!
I'm sure heroajax1 will agree with me, after all he is rank 6 AND was in a top 200 guild. I didn't know that was possible until today... HaXXorS!!

Not to mention he's guested for several top 100 guilds!

The Anti Science · Feb 16, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Ok just to make you happy we'll call them complaints. The two biggest complaints that appear in this form and many others is
1) it forces you to adapt the builds that you're comfortable with and have worked for however long. So you're telling me that you don't have the ability to adapt? You're scared that because you don't know a skill someone using a "pressure for dummies" build could catch you off guard?

and 2) now that it's reduced duration that it doesn't follow the roleplaying aspect of the game. First of all show me a Dervish that's going to use AoG in PvE, enchantment stripping is almost useless there. But whether you "True PvPers" care to admit it or not, this is an RPG game. The first thing when you do when you start the game is create a character, you choose the face, hair color etc. and you give him/her a name. In case you're not sure let me point out that you're compairing PvP to a first person shooter, and in FPS you don't customize your character other than their nationality or the like.

Dzan · Feb 16, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anti Science

Ok just to make you happy we'll call them complaints. The two biggest complaints that appear in this form and many others is
1) it forces you to adapt the builds that you're comfortable with and have worked for however long. So you're telling me that you don't have the ability to adapt? You're scared that because you don't know a skill someone using a "pressure for dummies" build could catch you off guard?

and 2) now that it's reduced duration that it doesn't follow the roleplaying aspect of the game. First of all show me a Dervish that's going to use AoG in PvE, enchantment stripping is almost useless there. But whether you "True PvPers" care to admit it or not, this is an RPG game. The first thing when you do when you start the game is create a character, you choose the face, hair color etc. and you give him/her a name. In case you're not sure let me point out that you're compairing PvP to a first person shooter, and in FPS you don't customize your character other than their nationality or the like.

1. It isn't a matter of adapting. It's a matter of one skill rendering an entire line, hell an entire profession, useless. When one skill is that imbalanced, it skews the metagame, by drastically limiting your build choices. The fewer viable build choices, the less fun the game becomes. Thus, it is in everyone's (including A-net's) interests to keep the variety of viable builds large.

To illustrate my point, imagine a board game like Risk. Lets assume the game was imbalanced to the point where whoever controlled North America could not possibly be beaten, except by the owner of Australia. That would essentially make the game a battle over North America and Australia. The other continents would be meaningless, and the game would cease to be fun to play.

2. Who cares if you can customize your character appearance? What, exactly, does that have to do with making GVG fun to play? I don't think a single serious GVGer choseto play or not play Grenths based on how much roleplaying flavor it had. And if you're talking about PVE'ers, I believe the skill was hardly used in PVE anyway so its a moot point.

If you absolutely require roleplaying justification for grenth having a different duration for you to rationalize it for fairytale roleplaying, here goes: The other gods saw one avatar gaining a disproportionate share of worship and followers, and they decided to collectively limit Grenth's ability to influence the world in order to maintain the balance of power among themselves.

Done and done.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 16, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anti Science

Ok just to make you happy we'll call them complaints. The two biggest complaints that appear in this form and many others is
1) it forces you to adapt the builds that you're comfortable with and have worked for however long. So you're telling me that you don't have the ability to adapt? You're scared that because you don't know a skill someone using a "pressure for dummies" build could catch you off guard?

and 2) now that it's reduced duration that it doesn't follow the roleplaying aspect of the game. First of all show me a Dervish that's going to use AoG in PvE, enchantment stripping is almost useless there. But whether you "True PvPers" care to admit it or not, this is an RPG game. The first thing when you do when you start the game is create a character, you choose the face, hair color etc. and you give him/her a name. In case you're not sure let me point out that you're compairing PvP to a first person shooter, and in FPS you don't customize your character other than their nationality or the like.

1: No. Wrong. Let me say it again:

Old Avatar of Grent > Monks.
Therefore, imba.

2: Only one or two tards ever used that complaint.

stueyman2099 · Feb 18, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anti Science

2) The first thing when you do when you start the game is create a character, you choose the face, hair color etc. and you give him/her a name.

I'd like to point out just for making fun of the guy, that my characters have such awesome names as Stuey Will Break U, Avatar of Stuey, Stuey Stabs Joo, and Ride the Stuey.

Anyway, don't talk about Roleplay in this section of the forum ever again please.

Riotgear · Feb 18, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Ride the Stuey

This made me laugh like an idiot.

ArKaiN · Mar 01, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Why is this thread open? They killed it, leave it dead. I've played a bonder against Grenth today and I didnt feel it was overpowered for a second. Every time the D activated it was like this: Crippled for 10 seconds, run for 10 seconds, crippled for 10 seconds, sever one bond, unmorph.

Riotgear · Mar 02, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

Why is this thread open? They killed it, leave it dead.

The post previous to yours was made a week and a half ago.

Quote:

Every time the D activated it was like this: Crippled for 10 seconds, run for 10 seconds, crippled for 10 seconds, sever one bond, unmorph.

Being able to keep a melee player under control when their team doesn't bring condition removal says nothing about balance.