Curse

wolfy3455 · Feb 13, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

1. Underpowered skills are just as much of a problem as overpowered ones are in terms of game balance. Overpowered skills can hurt the game and underpowered ones are wasted space. Scribe's Insight, Healer's Covenant, Peace and Harmony? Please. Does anyone use these?

2. Concept and balance go hand in hand. You just haven't figured it out yet. BTW, I am looking at this from a PvP perspective. It's not really overpowered, you simply don't want to change to deal with it. So, I guess complaining was a better way to go. Good job. Great idea about getting rid of the skill completely, that way you don't have to make any changes at all. Should we bring spirit spamming and IWAY back too?

3. Part of the point of a pressure team is burst damage to overload the monks. Not exclusively, but a part of it is. Keep weakening a target then a focused assault for a kill. That's what pressure teams do, well good ones anyway.

4. There are many ways to counter a grenth derv. Bottom line is, even in it's original form, most teams with slight modification could easily deal with the melee pressure. People didn't want to change, so they whined until they got their way. Reducing the duration of the form was not the way to go. Period.

1. Wasted space isn't causing problems unless A.net has some issues with affording the server costs we don't know about.

2. (I hate having to say this) Having counters doesnt make it balanced. This skill removed all forms of monk protection. Its impossible to outheal the concentrated damage of multiple mellees. The meta would have had to change to hold characters with weapon of warding and water snares. playing against those teams that bring extra defense against the only form of offense that this isnt overkill with makes normal play incredibly boring.

3. You described a bad pressure team. A very very bad one. A good team will not pressure one target, then spontaneously turn up the pressure on it and hope it dies. A mediocre pressure won't even try that(unless the caller is very lazy, which does happen, but not in serious matches). The point of pressure is to exhaust the other team's defense. In that respect, grenth's was a great pressure tool since as previously stated, its impossible to outheal multiple mellees for a prolonged period of time without damage mitigation. A pressure team might call a spike if nothing's going down, but generally its interrupt antipressure(hp, lod, wards), draw prots then switch, and knocking support down. Once the monks are showing signs of weakening (slow on prots, letting targets get low) you can stick on targets and train. Grenth's allowed teams to completely bypass the part of pressure builds that takes skill and go straight to training without losing efficiency.

4. Again, it would have been better to rebalance it, but as it is, its not really hurting anyone.

EDIT: I'm just going to stop trying, Mephisto catches him faster than I do.

heroajax1 · Feb 13, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

No, you don't understand game balance. Underpowered skills need a buff so people use them. Overpowered skills need a nerf so they don't rule the game. Dur. Balance. Get a clue.

Two hexes that most pressure teams run ruin a grenth dervish. Blurred Vision and Ice Spikes. Both spamable and both common. Really, what are people whining about here. Let's look at the time that grenth is up. 1 minute (on average) and down for another. So, for a GvG that runs the full battle and the Lord walks. That's what 28 mins? So people are complaining about 14 minutes out of a GvG you can't deal with one player? That's pretty pathetic imo. Currently, the meta is leaned toward pressure (some of that grenth derv driven). Those two hexes I mentioned earlier ... hmm, work against warriors, assassins, rangers, dervishes and paragons. So, two hexes that are fairly spamable and prevent damage from 1/2 of the professions in GW. How's that reducing your team's effectiveness?

Pre-nightfall didn't take huge amounts of skill to coordinate. It was fairly easily run as well. You hate it when people say there are counters? Well, I hate it when people can't adapt their builds because they want to keep running the same nub things over and over so they can farm fame and faction.

Phades · Feb 13, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

Two hexes that most pressure teams run ruin a grenth dervish. Blurred Vision and Ice Spikes. Both spamable and both common. Really, what are people whining about here.

15 and 20 second recharge skills are considered spammable? Well crap, what exactly do you call the skills on a 5s or less recharge then? Non-eliete hex removal will crush most ele hexes except the buffed frozen burst and frozen gust.

Maybe you shouldnt ball up at exactly every 20s so that you are getting caught in the minimal aoe size that ice spikes and blurred vision posess.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 13, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

No, you don't understand game balance. Underpowered skills need a buff so people use them. Overpowered skills need a nerf so they don't rule the game. Dur. Balance. Get a clue.

Underpowered skills are the same as skills that aren't in existence, people don't use them and they don't cause any problems. There are plenty of skills that people don't use, and noone complains. It is physically impossible to balance every skill, as some skills simply don't have the design or thought to be able to be balanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfy3455

1. Wasted space isn't causing problems unless A.net has some issues with affording the server costs we don't know about.

Describes it pretty well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

Two hexes that most pressure teams run ruin a grenth dervish. Blurred Vision and Ice Spikes. Both spamable and both common. Really, what are people whining about here. Let's look at the time that grenth is up. 1 minute (on average) and down for another. So, for a GvG that runs the full battle and the Lord walks. That's what 28 mins? So people are complaining about 14 minutes out of a GvG you can't deal with one player? That's pretty pathetic imo. Currently, the meta is leaned toward pressure (some of that grenth derv driven). Those two hexes I mentioned earlier ... hmm, work against warriors, assassins, rangers, dervishes and paragons. So, two hexes that are fairly spamable and prevent damage from 1/2 of the professions in GW. How's that reducing your team's effectiveness?

Blurred vision isn't going to stick unless you run a dedicated hex build. Ever wonder why people run hex removal, yea. Also, Ice spikes can be useful, but is also easily interrupted, vulnerable to diversion, and simply isn't powerful enough, unless you're running it under MoR or something.

The thing about having it 14 min out of 28 is that everything that you need to do that is important you can do in those 14 min. all you need to do is push up and get kills in that one min, then play defensive for a minute, then push up and get more kills in the next min, then play defensive. Or you can simply wipe them in the first min, start getting morale boosts, and voila, unlimited avatar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Any push or offensive action that you want to make can be done in the time period that a form is up, this is why forms are balanced as if they were up constantly.

A more to-the-point description.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

Pre-nightfall didn't take huge amounts of skill to coordinate. It was fairly easily run as well.

Pressure being fairly easily run well? It took a much more advanced player to pressure properly before Grenth's. You had to constantly switch targets and stay ahead of the prot because sitting there attack one target would end up being worthless because of enchantments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Grenth was "pressure for dummies." It allowed teams to threaten monk energy/recharge times and force kills by targeting a single character and pressing the spacebar key. Warriors are strong DPS in their own right, but they're considerably harder to play than that without Grenth clearing all the prot. You have to be constantly switching targets, staying ahead of the prot, pulling together for fast and suprising spikes, and generally being a lot more coordinated than most Grenth teams are capable of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

You hate it when people say there are counters? Well, I hate it when people can't adapt their builds because they want to keep running the same nub things over and over so they can farm fame and faction.

I love it when people resort to insulting me in discussions, because that means that they have run out of viable things to say.

You don't know what I play, so how can you say that I don't adapt? Why do you think that more and more builds that I've been playing have been stuffing stuff like wards, weapon of warding, and water trident into my builds? Why do you think that almost every single build I've run since a couple weeks after nightfall have included a Grenth's dervish?

Just because I adapt or just because I run it doesn't mean that I don't think that it is overpowered. Every top team used to be running Blinding surge, but they still complained all over the place that it was overpowered.

It isn't that I don't want to adapt, it's that I don't like overpowered things that take over the metagame, and I don't like things that force people to run specific counters and therefore reduce variety.

wolfy3455 · Feb 13, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

No, you don't understand game balance. Underpowered skills need a buff so people use them. Overpowered skills need a nerf so they don't rule the game. Dur. Balance. Get a clue.

Ok, maybe I lied even though Meph actually posted before I started.

The point of balance is to keep the top end of skills in a balanced state. In a perfect world, where programmers read 200 lines per minutes, write just as quickly, and can process fifty observer matches at once while conceptualizing all the possible combinations for them, underbalanced skills might all be adressed in one update. As it is they're addressed very slowly, because keeping the top end leveled is much more important. Intoducing the lower end skills into a balanced top end is a bonus.

Quote:

Two hexes that most pressure teams run ruin a grenth dervish. Blurred Vision and Ice Spikes. Both spamable and both common. Really, what are people whining about here. Let's look at the time that grenth is up. 1 minute (on average) and down for another. So, for a GvG that runs the full battle and the Lord walks. That's what 28 mins? So people are complaining about 14 minutes out of a GvG you can't deal with one player? That's pretty pathetic imo. Currently, the meta is leaned toward pressure (some of that grenth derv driven). Those two hexes I mentioned earlier ... hmm, work against warriors, assassins, rangers, dervishes and paragons. So, two hexes that are fairly spamable and prevent damage from 1/2 of the professions in GW. How's that reducing your team's effectiveness?

Constricting the options people can run for the sake of one skill is a stupid idea. Forcing people into running hexes is constricting. Hex pressure doesn't split well. Degen pressure in general doesn't (well, keep its purpose and split, ranger based degen pressure can split pretty well due to the versatility of the ranger builds that can spread conditions) because the pressure is amplified by each person you can get degening. When you have 4 people with degen on them, it doesnt really matter if you interrupt a heal party, because its not much more efficient than straight healing people. If you take hexes, you need enough to stick, which means your forced into this problem artificially by the existance of a single imbalanced skill.

Quote:

Pre-nightfall didn't take huge amounts of skill to coordinate. It was fairly easily run as well. You hate it when people say there are counters? Well, I hate it when people can't adapt their builds because they want to keep running the same nub things over and over so they can farm fame and faction.

If prenightfall pressure didn't take much skill to coordinate, then why were there very few guilds that could do it? Why wasn't your guild top 20 since you are obviously a pro at pressure? The more you know about the game, the more obvious the differences between a bad and a skilled pressure team are. To someone that doesn't know what to look for, pressure builds look like warriors and their support bashing on random targets, so I can understand how you got your previous description of pressure and your opinion of prenightfall pressure, but realize that when people who have played and made it into the top 100 in both the grenths and the prenightfall meta (not pointing to myself here), are telling you that your image of pressure is wrong, listen to them.

Blackhearted · Feb 13, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

/agree. I'm still for a health sac of 25-9%(1-15) or 'your attack skills cost an additional 5-2(1-15) energy' (as you can see I changed my opinion a but since the OP regarding health sac)

So lemme guess... You want the health sac on every attack so maybe you can actually kill it since its health would then be significatly lower? Sounds like another typical case of "help me cause i can't win normally plz"...

Riotgear · Feb 13, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

GW is heavy into powerful magic/skill effects which are luck based.

I meant offensive ones, as opposed to disruptive and defensive effects. Crit is about the extent of it.

For an example of a truly "powerful" effect, and the bad effects they cause, look no further than WoW's ridiculous spell crits and proc chains.

Generally, when there are odds, they're odds you don't want to play. If your attacks have a 50% chance to not hit, then dumping adrenaline on the target becomes a very bad idea.

Quote:

Even the skills Dark Apostacy and Order of Apostacy are similar to the Grenth Dervish.

Assassins are a very poor melee pressure class without Moebius, which DA prevents, and is in their primary line so it can't be run on a secondary. OoA is 6 seconds (with an enchant mod) for 25 energy, with health sac.

The ONLY thing in the same league as Grenth is Assault Enchantments, which is probably overpowered, but hasn't really come into the spotlight yet because up until recently, Grenth was a few orders of magnitude worse, not to mention pressures targets in more ways than just enchant removal.

Quote:

The concept of the worship of the gods in GW is extremely relevant. There is absolutely no reason why this particular god should grant the form for a less time than the others.

Yes, there is: Balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

Ya, and? What you're really saying is that people can't learn to deal with a particular skill?

People will always learn to deal with overpowered crap, the issue is how many options disappear due to the amount of resources they need to devote to it. You can only devote so many skill slots to hard-counter broken skills/builds before your offense starts to suffer.

Quote:

Acidic, well, god worship is part of the richness of this game that we all obviously love.

I hear this same argument from people on BF2 forums that don't understand why the M95 (.50-cal rifle) doesn't instagib people. The answer is the same: Because it would make the game suck.

Probably shouldn't have even bothered posting this, Mephisto pretty much covered everything I wanted to say.

heroajax1 · Feb 13, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

You don't know what I play, so how can you say that I don't adapt?

I don't really want to be forced to run those templates, so instead of forcing me to run counters, why not just nerf an overpowered skill?

That's how i know.

Quote:

I love it when people resort to insulting me in discussions, because that means that they have run out of viable things to say.

It wasn't meant to be an insult, but if you want to take it that way, whatever.

Quote:

If prenightfall pressure didn't take much skill to coordinate, then why were there very few guilds that could do it? Why wasn't your guild top 20 since you are obviously a pro at pressure?

There were a lot of guilds that ran pressure builds look into it. In fact most ran pressure builds to some greater or lesser degree. One thing I noticed here is that no one who's arguing with me is even in a guild that's ON the ladder. Since you guys seem to want to call my credibility into account, I'm r6, been in top 200 guilds and have guested for several top 100 guilds.

The reality here is that it comes down to the players not the build.

Quote:

Constricting the options people can run for the sake of one skill is a stupid idea. Forcing people into running hexes is constricting. Hex pressure doesn't split well. Degen pressure in general doesn't

So, adding two new professions does nothing to constrict people? Hex pressure and condition pressure can split. Absolutely, not as good. no question there. It can be done. Try it. It actually works decently.

Quote:

You described a bad pressure team. A very very bad one. A good team will not pressure one target, then spontaneously turn up the pressure on it and hope it dies. A mediocre pressure won't even try that(unless the caller is very lazy, which does happen, but not in serious matches).

No, actually I just didn't go into the imense detail required to describe a pressure/burst team. I expected the people reading the pvp forum threads to understand the basic concept behind it. Obviously not.

So, overall, whatever you guys aren't getting the point I'm trying to make, you'd rather just complain about a skill than try something new.

Grenth Dervish is now totally nerfed into uselessness. People whined rather than dealing with it. It wasn't that hard to overcome, but no one wanted to try. So, now GW has yet another useless skill. Which is not balanced.

Red_Dragon56 · Feb 13, 2007, 05:12 AM // 05:12

It's [/quote] just to let you know.

heroajax1 · Feb 13, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

thanks red dragon, i got it later on. i was trying to quote multiple people, but it didn't work.

Red_Dragon56 · Feb 13, 2007, 05:56 AM // 05:56

I would easily say to counter Grenth is to use [skill]Pacifism[/skill] of course because of the huge amount of hex removal options it really isn't viable source of getting away from a Grenth. If somhow you where able to get this thing on a Grenth for a time, it would be a good thing to run away using some Sin skills or somthing.

Not saying it's a good counter, but it's a counter of some type.

Riotgear · Feb 13, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Dragon56

Not saying it's a good counter, but it's a counter of some type.

The 30-second recharge and nasty conditionality, especially with Divert Hexes still around, makes pacifism a bad counter to anything. You'd be better off parking a water ele on them. Freezing gust + water trident spam = useless Grenth.

*lemming* · Feb 13, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

There were a lot of guilds that ran pressure builds look into it. In fact most ran pressure builds to some greater or lesser degree. One thing I noticed here is that no one who's arguing with me is even in a guild that's ON the ladder. Since you guys seem to want to call my credibility into account, I'm r6, been in top 200 guilds and have guested for several top 100 guilds.

Flaunting perceived experienced isn't a strong argument.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 13, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

There were a lot of guilds that ran pressure builds look into it. In fact most ran pressure builds to some greater or lesser degree. One thing I noticed here is that no one who's arguing with me is even in a guild that's ON the ladder. Since you guys seem to want to call my credibility into account, I'm r6, been in top 200 guilds and have guested for several top 100 guilds.

Wow, can I tell my friends I know you, heroajax1? They'll be so impressed.

As for the nerf - not the one I would have gone with, but at least the skill is out of the game. It singlehandedly removed most of the challenge from playing pressure, and the skill design had problems to begin with. If Avatar of Grenth never sees play again that's a small price to pay for a game that requires skill to succeed.

Kassad · Feb 13, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

One thing I noticed here is that no one who's arguing with me is even in a guild that's ON the ladder.

Thom, JR and Squidget (and others...) are in top guilds, I dont know about you.

And on the skill change, Ether Prodigy has a new friend.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 13, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

That's how i know.

Selective quoting out of context. I say right there that I've run the freaking thing in every single build I've played since nightfall outside of TA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

The reality here is that it comes down to the players not the build.

Grenth's allows bad players to be good at pressure. Grenth's also happens to be the best tool for pressure by about a mile. I would rather have pressure have to be played by good players who know how to pressure than bad players who know how to T-space.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

So, adding two new professions does nothing to constrict people? Hex pressure and condition pressure can split. Absolutely, not as good. no question there. It can be done. Try it. It actually works decently.

Condition pressure can split because it usually involves many rangers, which have very good solo templates. Hex pressure can't split well unless you pack in a couple solo templates, simply because degen isn't as effective on less people. That would be why splitting is one of the main counters to hex teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

No, actually I just didn't go into the imense detail required to describe a pressure/burst team. I expected the people reading the pvp forum threads to understand the basic concept behind it. Obviously not.

Huge amounts of detail? I can explain the gist of it like this:
Hit things
Make sure that prot isn't reducing your hits
Pull together for fast, sudden spikes

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

So, overall, whatever you guys aren't getting the point I'm trying to make, you'd rather just complain about a skill than try something new.

I do try new things, as already stated, I've loaded at least 3-4 Grenth's counters into every build I've played, and I've played Grenth's so many times I want to puke. I will complain about a skill if every single non-spike team I see if running it, because that's simply bad for the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

Grenth Dervish is now totally nerfed into uselessness. People whined rather than dealing with it. It wasn't that hard to overcome, but no one wanted to try. So, now GW has yet another useless skill. Which is not balanced.

Good. If you have to pack multiple counters into every build to deal with it, and it is still more effective than any other pressure option even when dealing with loads of counters, there is simply something wrong with the skill.

And you seem to be the only one that thinks that underpowered skills are bad. I'm guessing that you're going to be starting a thread complaining about Outygh's Cry or Primal Rage next?

Thomas.knbk · Feb 13, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

If they made a skill that had a 10 sec cast time and did 999 damage to every enemy in radar range, you'd still have people saying "JUST GO DSHOT IT" or "PROT SPIRIT SPAM DUH". Even if there was also a skill that made everyone invulnerable to the first skill, the first skill is still overpowered, even though there are counters.

Divert Hexes say what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

So people are complaining about 14 minutes out of a GvG you can't deal with one player?

No. They are complaining that that character is removing their prots, that that character makes it easy for all other melee on their team to kill something, and that that skill is stronger than 1100 other skills (=overpowered, which has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with counters). Plus one minute is quite enough let three melee characters enforce a complete wipe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

Pre-nightfall didn't take huge amounts of skill to coordinate. It was fairly easily run as well. You hate it when people say there are counters? Well, I hate it when people can't adapt their builds because they want to keep running the same nub things over and over so they can farm fame and faction.

So a skill that would do 9999 armor ignoring dmg, 2 sec cast time, 1 sec recharge wouldn't be overpowered because you can divert it, Dshot it, use prot spirit? Just bring counters noobs. Yeah right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhearted

So lemme guess... You want the health sac on every attack so maybe you can actually kill it since its health would then be significatly lower? Sounds like another typical case of "help me cause i can't win normally plz"...

No, I wanted a health sac because this skill was significantly stronger than 1100 other skills, makign it imbalanced. Considering the only comparable skill, order of apostapy, has a health sac I thought it would be a good idea. I still do.
Do you have a reason why you suddenly decided I needed a personal attack?

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

One thing I noticed here is that no one who's arguing with me is even in a guild that's ON the ladder. Since you guys seem to want to call my credibility into account, I'm r6, been in top 200 guilds and have guested for several top 100 guilds.

[serp] is a TA guild (correct me if I'm wrong). [NUKE] used to be 39, [MH] is 11 atm, [pink] is 64, myself, well, I'm higher than you are.
I really couldn't care less if you were in vD, were an ex member of QQ, EviL, iQ, WM (the real one), EW and Te, what you're saying doesn't make sense and it still doesn't if you're rank 6 an ex member of a top 200 guild who has guested for several top 100 guilds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroajax1

Grenth Dervish is now totally nerfed into uselessness. People whined rather than dealing with it. It wasn't that hard to overcome, but no one wanted to try. So, now GW has yet another useless skill. Which is not balanced.

IT'S NOT. It's nerfed into balance. 34 seconds is still a freakin long time, and more than enough to score a few kills or make an offensive push.
Basically everything you said was bullshit, and everyone disagreed with you. Go think about that.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 13, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

[serp] is a TA guild (correct me if I'm wrong).

Serp is a TA guild, but currently we're suffering from inactivity to some degree. Still, we TA and HA every time we get a chance to.

Patccmoi · Feb 13, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Ok, i already typed all this once, i won't bother again, so allow me to quote myself!

Heroajax1, i feel that this applies to you. Replace BSurge by Avatar of Grenth and Avatar of Melandru/Sight beyond Sight by Weapon of Warding and Water Trident...

I'll assume you're able to understand the main message even if the skill names are different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by me!

Don't take it bad, but the reason people talk to you like this is because they're trying to have a serious discussion about what can be done with the skill and you're bringing a point that is severly flawed and, overall, shows inexperience and poor knowledge of competitive gameplay, and then argue repeatedly when they tell you why it's flawed.

Basically, that's the first step of people getting interested in skill balancing in one way or another, thinking 'oh but there's a counter!'. There will always be a counter to every damn skill made except if there's a .25s cast signet that does a radar-range wipe of the other team. There is TONS of hard counter skills in GW. But most are just not viable in competitive play because they are far too narrow, especially when they're elite (think Spell Breaker, though it had its glorious days in 8v8 HA where you had so much slots for utility and 3 monks that you could actually afford to bring that attrocity), or relatively easy to counter themselves (for example elite counters can always face a Sig of Humility, which could then face an interrupt, etc. The chain never ends). You can't design a build against a skill, because there is too much chances you WON'T face that skill. I mean, you can bring 3 copies of Divert Hexes and trust me no hex will ever appear broken. None. Because no damn hex will ever stick on anyone for more than 2-3s. But bringing 3 copies of Divert Hexes makes no sense at all in competitive play because if you don't face a hex build you wasted 3/8 elites that will be 100% useless in the game. So is Spoil Victor balances because Divert Hexes exists? No.

You didn't bring any new way of thinking. Everyone already thought about what you said, already had the counter list you wrote in mind (minus a few pretty ridiculous skills in there and with a couple of others added), but just know enough about competitive gameplay to know what in that list is viable and what isn't (Dwarven Battle Stance to counter BSurge? Geez. If the guy can't time his BSurge between 2 swings he's horrible), and how much you can rely on the somewhat viable counters. Some ARE viable to a decent extent, like Avatar of Melandru, or Sight beyond Sight (used with Extend Enchant on Grenth Derv) and are ran too, even though they had their own counters (like a Me/E that will Shatter Enchant on Sight just after it's applied and BSurge you afterwards. Good Me/E do it all the time). But... this severly limits the viable builds and this hurts the game a lot, and that's why people say a skill is overpowered. Because it forces the metagame too much, makes pressure builds extremely hard to play except very strict builds that can handle BSurge. Yes, those can, but it'd be nice if other builds are playable too, no?

And the last thing that seriously doesn't help you is bringing 'top guilds' in the discussion while about everyone in top guilds posting here said in some thread or other that BSurge is broken. And you come here saying 'top guilds adapt and it's fine stop whining'. Yes, top guilds adapt. Good but not top guilds adapt too. Adapting doesn't mean everything is fine though. When people just play Euro-spike because they can't pressure, they adapted, but it doesn't mean anyone actually likes the gameplay much. And it's a game, the quality of the gameplay matters, and when a skill is severly hurting the quality of the gameplay it should be changed. Not everyone should adapt and be forced into builds they dislike because a given skill is in place, not when the skill can be changed by a skill balance.

I doubt anyone will give you a more detailed explanation of why you're getting flamed, so think on it before answering that i didn't understand you too and that i can't get out of my strict way of thinking and absolute inability to think of any counter ('oh, he's using BSurge, i'll kill him with my Power Attack!!!'). People can be intolerant when someone comes, makes obvious reasoning mistakes (obvious to them anyway), and then claim that they should respect his opinion. It's like 2 adults having a conversation with a child trying to take part with arguments that make no sense. It's normal that they feel like saying 'go play elsewhere atm, you don't understand, we'll talk when you get older'. Assuming you're not a child, i think i gave you everything needed to understand here, so i'll stop, that was long enough.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 13, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by patccmoi

There will always be a counter to every damn skill made except if there's a .25s cast signet that does a radar-range wipe of the other team

OMG just bring Guilt noob
Someone should sticky that post though. Not this thread (hell, no), just that post.