Curse

Sinful Doom · Jan 12, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

I think the consensus from most post's I read are restore inspiration to what it was. In Anet's attempt to shake up the meta all they acomplished was creating more problems. Make drain ench worthwhile again and you might see mesmers putting points back into inspiration instead of air. But then again, since I play monk mostly, I was never a big fan of being Esurged all the time by mesmers so... keep spamming that Bsurge on those warriors.

taxed · Jan 12, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Hmmm, how about a very different approach to the issue:

When in Grenth's form, your attacks IGNORE enchantments. I think this would completely balance the form. 1 Grenth Derv could no longer lead a Melee chain.

JR · Jan 12, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

That would make it fairly worthless, I think.

taxed · Jan 12, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

I don't think it would, actually. For Grenth Derv trains, it would actually strenthen the skill as Prot monks would be 100% powerless to do anything with them, while making them worthless when there is only 1 of them around. Just think, Prot spirit, SoA, RoF, Ageis amoungst others would all be ignored on the attack.

3 Grenth Dervs would mean if you don't have a pure healer, or another way other than enchants to mitigate damage (ie. Blind, Hexes, Wards ect...), you are a gonner.

twicky_kid · Jan 12, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

You talk of Drain Enchant as if a 5s nerf and 2-3E less gained on it switched the whole enchantment control metagame. I agree that it was more used before, but honestly now i STILL think it wouldn't be used much in its current state because Me/E totally ignore inspiration and use GoLE as emanagement so they can have high dom + decent air and fast cast.

Drain enchant used to be 18 energy gain and 20 recharge (at 10 inspire). Then it was changed to 25 recharge. Later it was changed to its current form with a -5e gain and 30 sec recharge.

Yes it did change the entire metagame of enchantment removal.

Grenth's is the only viable option for pressure builds right now. The enchantments have gotton much stronger since the days of drain enchant. It makes since to me to we should have stronger removal as well to balance things out.

What makes grenth so strong is not grenth itself its wild blow. Grenth is still very weak to any melee shutdown. I would fix wild blow and leave grenths alone. Try running grenths without wild blow and see what happens.

Divineshadows · Jan 12, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

What makes grenth so strong is not grenth itself its wild blow. Grenth is still very weak to any melee shutdown. I would fix wild blow and leave grenths alone. Try running grenths without wild blow and see what happens.

Wild blow is not the answer. Even if wild blow stated that this skill can only be used by warrior primaries, then teams would just run irresistible sweep on the grenths dervish. The grenths dervish would just make sure the irresistible removes their own team's aegis, a self-enchant that is about to end anyway, or call for a reversal from a monk to fuel the removal from irresistible. Also, irresistible sweep would be quite simple for a grenths dervish to use if they have a smiter smiting off of them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vax

put mantra of frost on ur monks and quit crying :\

Way to show off your lack of understanding of the skills that a grenths dervish uses and lack of understanding about game balance itself. Keep the awesome quotes like this coming. They provide everyone a good laugh.

Zoo X · Jan 12, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

What makes grenth so strong is not grenth itself its wild blow. Grenth is still very weak to any melee shutdown. I would fix wild blow and leave grenths alone. Try running grenths without wild blow and see what happens.

totally agree, cant say wild blow is imba, but, when use it for a Grenth Derv ... is way to good. there is also skils that give you the 100% chance to hit when use it, unlike wild blow, those other skills are linked to have/remove enchantments, +/- 50% hp ...... at the time you use them, and the recharge time for such skills ar not as low as Wild Blow.
Grenth Derv deserve a closer look in the next skill update, maybe, tunning up wild blow could be the first steep.

Razz L Dazzle · Jan 12, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

One of the biggest problems of Grenth is when combined with a smiter. Grenth + Judges and cheap enchantments to boost energy is certainly overpowered. The -2 energy and % health loss are good ideas but this combo would still be overpowered i believe because grenth would still be fine on energy from smite and he'll still get some minor healing from Smiter. I think Judges changes grenth's usual Cold damage to Holy but i haven't tested this. Perhaps a clause such as Grenth's attacks only remove enchantments while dealing cold damage and for each enchantment removed Grenth loses -2...-4 energy depending of mysticism level. Possibly -2 at 15 in attribute, not sure what Grenth's put in Mysticism typically but forcing a major rune/sup rune and less in syche would help. The DPS of the smited grenth is overpowered in the current meta.

Just some thoughts..

-Razz

Of course a reworking sycthe attacks should be reconsidered as well potentially making Grenth a good skill but not quite as overpowered.

lightblade · Jan 12, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Here's my idea: Make Grenth avatar undead statis so it takes double damage from holy damage type.

SMITE THE GRENTH AVATAR!!!

Cmon, ideas need to be more creative.

Patccmoi · Jan 12, 2007, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Drain enchant used to be 18 energy gain and 20 recharge (at 10 inspire). Then it was changed to 25 recharge. Later it was changed to its current form with a -5e gain and 30 sec recharge.

Yes it did change the entire metagame of enchantment removal.

Grenth's is the only viable option for pressure builds right now. The enchantments have gotton much stronger since the days of drain enchant. It makes since to me to we should have stronger removal as well to balance things out.

What makes grenth so strong is not grenth itself its wild blow. Grenth is still very weak to any melee shutdown. I would fix wild blow and leave grenths alone. Try running grenths without wild blow and see what happens.

20s recharge is a really long time ago. 25s was balanced, they should've just raise cast time to 2s so monks can't use it so easily and leave it the same as it was, but that's another issue really.

And Drain Enchant would STILL not do JACK against enchant stacking, even at 20s recharge, or 15s recharge, or 10s recharge (though it would give Mesmers freaking good energy hehe)! You think that you're gonna do what trying to use Drain Enchant to support a warrior train? There's RoF and SoA and Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond thrown, and Aegis possibly up. If you're lucky you'll get something else than RoF, but it will still remain way too many enchants for your train to kill. Drain Enchant never allowed warrior trains to kill. It can help to remove a key enchant during a spike, take down Aegis from a target before the train gets on him, but not to pressure 1 single target down by sticking on him. What you did was simply make monks throw enchants on a target... and switch target. Eventually monks run out of energy, or get something Diverted, or get spiked down, etc. That's how pressure always worked.

Grenth just dumbs down pressure. Pressure always required good target picking, knowing when to switch target, make monks waste enchants to burn their energy, etc. But Grenth just takes all that away and makes pressure pretty much easier to run than spike. You don't even need to time anything, you just need 3 people pressing T together while the rest of the team just makes sure those 3 people are clean. There's nothing else to it and it's just dumb. When you can afford to have 4 people that can work on keeping that Grenth clean, he's not actually weak to any kind of shutdown. The only thing that remotely works as defense against them atm is Wards, which is why they became really popular again, but wards only go so far. Unless you're a caster spike, you can't have your full team sitting in wards.

So basically Grenth = mindless warrior trains. No need to target switch, etc. I mean, yes monks can throw enchants to protect someone, but they aren't free and they SHOULD have an impact, no? If a guy has 40E worth of enchants on his back, shouldn't he actually be somewhat protected so that you have to switch target and not just have a Grenth derv take them all out in a few sec? It's fine that some skills are kinda hard counter to enchants, but there's a limit to how hard a counter can be without destroying the whole skill line. Nothing else, elite or not, even compares to Grenth when it comes to mass enchant removal.

And no, Wild Blow isn't the only problem of Grenth. There's other viable options Grenth Derv could have if Wild Blow wasn't there (like Irresistible Sweep... which has lower recharge AND deals good +damage. Yes you lose an enchant, but there's so many ways to have an enchant stream on Grenth Derv (Orders, Smite, etc.) that it wouldn't be a real issue). Wild Blow might be too strong on Derv (not convinced it is, but it's definitely good at least) but it's not required for a Grenth to do his job and Grenth needs to be balanced even if Wild Blow didn't exist.

TMWNN · Jan 13, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

the fact that wild blow guarantees a crit 100+ sythe dmg hit and removes stance and enxhant as well makes it pretty tasty for a grenther derv. there aren't many otions against ths sort of thing when monksing except to attempt to outheal the dmg, and we all know how bad healng sux.

Patrograd · Jan 13, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32

What has always puzzled me is why grenth costs 10 energy, and melandru 25

Anyway, I would make this cost 25 energy and have a shorter duration and recharge, 30 seconds on and 30 off at 12 mysticism, make players have to think about their energy a little

Xenex Xclame · Jan 13, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Did you play during the preview weekends for nightfall?
Did you see/play the dervish then?Thats why melandrus got nerfed to 25 energy

( almost useless now cause it cost so damn much)

Im pretty sure they would not change the duration nor the recharge, why? because all the avatars have the same duration and recharge, the only thing they could change is what it does and the energy.

I didnt think of this before, but just something that i thought of right now, how about it only removes enchant if you have an enchantment on you and it gets removed.

So it would be , lose one enchantment and your remove one enchantment from your target.

maybe still keep th part that you have to use an attack skill but i dont think its needed, seeing as you would have to waste time and energy putting a enchantment up everytime you want to remove one or your monks would have to keep putting one on you, atleast this way it would make it the enchantment removal less spammable.

Phades · Jan 13, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

So it would be , lose one enchantment and your remove one enchantment from your target.

You mean like this?
[skill=Rending Touch]Rending Touch[/skill]

Havent even bothered trying to use it, but it would suggest that the derv doesnt even need an enchant to work, just a dual stripper. Making that kind of change would make it not be worth an eliete slot.

twicky_kid · Jan 13, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

IS is not that great of a skill. Without wild blow you are forced into using a smiter along with the grenths. Restricting a build to very narrow uses is very devistating when the meta shifts.

As I recall pressure builds would pack 3-4 drain enchants so ya it does make a difference. As for grenth dumbing down pressure I don't think so. While grenths is up yes its very easy to use but when grenth goes down you have to use tactics to stay alive. It does come at a cost. Unlike past pressure builds they cannot pressure all the time with a 20 minute VoD.

I've always found blinding the grenth's and divert the draw conditions or smiter a very effective tactic to shut down grenths. Ebon dust cloak melee greifers are very affective as well. I expect them to take the place of bsurge.

Grenth's is simply a meta game counter. Monks are running on avg 5 enchantments. This could also make a shift to a 1 prot 1 healer backline.

Wild blow is what makes them too strong. Even without wild blow there are other options but those options have longer recharges, cost more energy, some are enchants so you have to stop chasing to cast, can be stripped from the dervish, or remove an enchantment from himself.

I would make this change first and see how it goes. If grenth's is still too strong without wild blow then we can change it. Anet has said with the tournament system they will be able to make changes sooner. No more waiting for a season to end to make changes.

Symbol · Jan 13, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

IS is not that great of a skill. Without wild blow you are forced into using a smiter along with the grenths. Restricting a build to very narrow uses is very devistating when the meta shifts.

Or orders, or RoF (don't need to be smiting to use this after all), or...

Wild blow is fine, it's used in plenty of other dervish builds and no one is complaining about them being overpowered. The problem is Grenth, period. Enchants have always been what people use to protect a focused target, it's not metagame specific. Packing three or four copies of drain enchant is not the same thing at all, you might be able to strip an enchant stack once but then you're stuck waiting on recharge, while a grenth's dervish can rip off 3-4 enchants every 5 seconds.

Quote:

Wild blow is what makes them too strong. Even without wild blow there are other options but those options have longer recharges, cost more energy, some are enchants so you have to stop chasing to cast, can be stripped from the dervish, or remove an enchantment from himself.

Irresistable sweep is pretty much a drop in replacement for wild blow since most teams with grenth's dervishes are running some party wide enchants or, even better, smiting.

Patccmoi · Jan 13, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Or orders, or RoF (don't need to be smiting to use this after all), or...

Wild blow is fine, it's used in plenty of other dervish builds and no one is complaining about them being overpowered. The problem is Grenth, period. Enchants have always been what people use to protect a focused target, it's not metagame specific. Packing three or four copies of drain enchant is not the same thing at all, you might be able to strip an enchant stack once but then you're stuck waiting on recharge, while a grenth's dervish can rip off 3-4 enchants every 5 seconds.

Irresistable sweep is pretty much a drop in replacement for wild blow since most teams with grenth's dervishes are running some party wide enchants or, even better, smiting.

And honestly, even if they removed all freaking can't block/evade scythe options, guided weapon, guided hands, etc., you could still run something like a D/R using Called Shot, Dual Shot, DShot... Called Shot in Grenth becomes a ranged enchant removal with 3s recharge that you can't prevent easily. You could also run D/P using some low adrenal spear attacks and things like Swift Javelin or Mighty throw so you don't miss, etc.

Grenth has simply too much abuse potential, and tweaking other skills around it is just NOT a good way to look at it. Basically, Wild Blow, a skill that is fine in about any other build existing, is broken on a Grenth Dervish so... nerf Wild Blow? And when they use another skill in its place, you'll nerf it? And the one coming after, etc.? Not touching Grenth will just end up nerfing tons of skills that Grenth use that will then become useless in any other build cause they'll be subpar. This kind of thinking just kills skill versatility cause tons of balanced skills get nerfed instead of fixing the real problems.

And when you pack 3-4 Drain Enchants, it means that you have to 'sacrifice' a lot of secondary profs and skill slots in the build. And there's recharge, etc. I think you should read Squidget's post about the design flaw of Avatars, the fact that they're NOT really balanced by their downtime because in 1-1:15 min, you have all the time you need to do a heavy pressure push and to break a team (or gain ground to control flag, etc.), and it hardly matters if your Avatar is down when they're falling appart. Having to play more defensively for 45s if they held isn't truly dramatic either, you'll have the chance to do another pressure push soon enough.

And i have no idea how you can suggest Ebon Dust vs Grenth. You know that if Grenth is clean for 2s he can strip Ebon Dust straight and then just not care about it? Ebon Dust has 20s recharge after all...

tomcruisejr · Jan 13, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

The skill itself is fine as is. It's wildblow that is making it powerful.

must put wildblow in strength and make it fail if Strength is less than 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Enchants have always been what people use to protect a focused target, it's not metagame specific.

ritualist spirits?

on a second thought, can't blame you coz they suck.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 13, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

It's still really broken without wild blow, we run a D/Rt with sight beyond sight.

Bugeater · Jan 15, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

The skill itself is fine as is. It's wildblow that is making it powerful.

must put wildblow in strength and make it fail if Strength is less than 1

I hope you had your browser window open for 20 minutes and didn't read Patccmoi's post just before yours where he addressed exactly that with his good friend, logic.