Curse

Thomas.knbk · Jan 11, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

For 15....63..79 seconds, whenever you use an attack Skill, you also remove 1 Enchantment from your target, and your attacks deal cold damage. This Skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Spammable enchant removal with nice built-in dmg.

My change to this skill would be a 2 energy loss every time you remove an enchant, OR a 5-3% health sac per enchant.

I know everyone who plays guild wars has an idea on this skill, so let's hear 'em!

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 11, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

My change to this skill would be a 2 energy loss every time you remove an enchant, OR a 5-3% health sac per enchant.

Loss of energy will not have any significant effect on a Grenth dervish. They could just sit at 5 energy and use their skills as the energy hit 5 in order to keep a target clean of enchantments and completely dodge the energy loss. Make it "attack skills cost 2 more energy" and you have a much stronger nerf.

5-3% health sac is far too small for something as powerful as an enchantment strip. Look at the cost-benefit ratios on any other viable enchantment removal and that will be laughably obvious. The sac needs to be large enough that Heal Party isn't going to take care of it during pushes - between 10% and 15% sounds right to me, but I'd have to test the changes to really have an idea how well that works.

kvndoom · Jan 11, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

I'm with Squidget, the health sac needs to be high enough to keep this from being a "no-brainer" elite.

But the sac idea is great! And it kinda keeps in tune with many Necro skills, seeing that Grenth is the Necro god.

Divineshadows · Jan 11, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

5-3% health sac is far too small for something as powerful as an enchantment strip. Look at the cost-benefit ratios on any other viable enchantment removal and that will be laughably obvious. The sac needs to be large enough that Heal Party isn't going to take care of it during pushes - between 10% and 15% sounds right to me, but I'd have to test the changes to really have an idea how well that works.

Probably not easy to implement, but any such health sac should be relative to the energy cost used to place the enchantment. I would say something like:

10% for a 5 energy enchantment
13% for a 10 energy enchantment
16% for a 15 energy enchantment

Also, add an additional 5% to the sacrafice if it removes an elite enchantment (ether prodigy, elemental attunement, etc.).

Almighty Zi · Jan 12, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

How about if the enchantment removal is conditional on the dervish being enchanted and he loses an enchantment each time he removes one from his target with an attack? Does that seem like a fair exchange or it that going too far?

HolyHawk · Jan 12, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

There are already some attack that require to be enchanted, and are hardly used anyways, but health sac suits well the avatar, 7~10% imo, seems too much health loss if higher percentage. Some also sugested that enchants are only removed to foes above 50% health, but I honestely think it's not much of a big deal; if you have 51%, they can unleash a spike, removing soa/sb/prot etc and finishing you off. Health sac would prevent mindless button bashing, or rather, make them easier to kill.

Apok Omen · Jan 12, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

@ above: Then you would have another rending touch.

My suggestion would be to put a limit on how many enchants you can remove. I mean, Healer's Boon and Holy Haste can check on how many spells you casted, so it should be easy to put a limit of enchant removal. Maybe 1...25...29 enchantments removed. A Grenth Dervish hardly stays on a non-moving player, so it would seem reasonable.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 12, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almighty Zi

How about if the enchantment removal is conditional on the dervish being enchanted and he loses an enchantment each time he removes one from his target with an attack? Does that seem like a fair exchange or it that going too far?

This nerf would make Grenth dervishes too strong when paired with a smiter, and too weak otherwise.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 12, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Im with either the attacks cost 2 more energy or 10-15% health sac per enchant removed.

Sinful Doom · Jan 12, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Im with either the attacks cost 2 more energy or 10-15% health sac per enchant removed.

Much like warriors have to switch off prot'd targets the health sac might also force Grenth Dervish's to switch targets and not be mindless trains. This is a good thing.

I think I would also go with 15% health sac'd. Anything less might = abuse with Dark Aura somehow.

I also agree that with the other proposed nerf, Grenth Dervish + AoE smitter would = More uber godly.

Vax · Jan 12, 2007, 02:51 AM // 02:51

put mantra of frost on ur monks and quit crying :\

warriorsmiley · Jan 12, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

The fact that it is cold damage has nothing to with it being overpowered. The fact that it removes enchantments so freely is what makes it overpowered and besides many dervishes carry wildblow. Wildblow>mantras

Vax · Jan 12, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

also if you wanted a skill nerf you should just put a percentage on the skill
like with 12 in myst you get like a 25% chance to remove 1 enchantment
16 you get like 35%
have fun

twicky_kid · Jan 12, 2007, 04:20 AM // 04:20

I think this is one skill that is going to get completely destroyed so people will move away from it.

Until they fix drain enchant I don't think it should be touched. Deal with the real issue first. If drain enchant was still around I don't think you would see this guy as much as you do now. The only alt enchant removal is shatter enchant which has a huge recharge and energy cost.

Rending touch is great but also has a balancing side affect. Enchantments removal needs to be looked at in whole not just grenths.

Think about it. Say they nerf grenths. What else are you going to use to consistently remove enchants? With aegis chains, SoA, and all the other def enchants flying around you are going to need something like grenths to keep it all contained. Otherwise we move into a spike between enchant environments we are in.

Hate to say it but its a necessary evil.

Korean Xunlai Agent · Jan 12, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I think this is one skill that is going to get completely destroyed so people will move away from it.

Until they fix drain enchant I don't think it should be touched. Deal with the real issue first. If drain enchant was still around I don't think you would see this guy as much as you do now. The only alt enchant removal is shatter enchant which has a huge recharge and energy cost.

Rending touch is great but also has a balancing side affect. Enchantments removal needs to be looked at in whole not just grenths.

Think about it. Say they nerf grenths. What else are you going to use to consistently remove enchants? With aegis chains, SoA, and all the other def enchants flying around you are going to need something like grenths to keep it all contained. Otherwise we move into a spike between enchant environments we are in.

Hate to say it but its a necessary evil.

Drain enchantment
Inspired Enchantment
Gaze of Contempt
Rend Enchantments
Strip Enchantments
Well of Profane
Rending Touch
WOW THAT WAS A LOT MORE THAN JUST SHATTER ENCHANTMENT HUH

ss1986v2 · Jan 12, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Korean Xunlai Agent

Drain enchantment
Inspired Enchantment
Gaze of Contempt
Rend Enchantments
Strip Enchantments
Well of Profane
Rending Touch
WOW THAT WAS A LOT MORE THAN JUST SHATTER ENCHANTMENT HUH

his comment wasnt about a lack of enchantment removal, but a lack of good enchantment removal.

drain is worse than inspired imo (10 sec shorter recharge, similar energy gain over time), and inspired isnt that good to start with.

gaze can be useful in the right situations, but rend and strip are beaten out by those in the inspiration line (although you can get good mileage out of strip). well of profane is way to conditional (lets hope the target we want to hit just happens to wander into the well...).

rending could be nice, but not on a caster. you dont want to have to run up to touch your target as a backline caster. you are just asking to get nailed, plus you rly give away what your about to do. and even on a frontline char, you lose your own protection making yourself a possible target.

shatter is the winner right now because of all the dom mesmers running around. its a very nice spike of dmg with a quick cast and moderate recharge.

Saider maul · Jan 12, 2007, 05:14 AM // 05:14

I kinda like the idea of each attach skill is -x energy. I feel -2 energy is a tad strong. i feel 1 energy would still create a balance in the mix.

This is if you wish the skill nerfed. I feel it is fine. I personally prefer running mage bomb.

Patccmoi · Jan 12, 2007, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I think this is one skill that is going to get completely destroyed so people will move away from it.

Until they fix drain enchant I don't think it should be touched. Deal with the real issue first. If drain enchant was still around I don't think you would see this guy as much as you do now. The only alt enchant removal is shatter enchant which has a huge recharge and energy cost.

Rending touch is great but also has a balancing side affect. Enchantments removal needs to be looked at in whole not just grenths.

Think about it. Say they nerf grenths. What else are you going to use to consistently remove enchants? With aegis chains, SoA, and all the other def enchants flying around you are going to need something like grenths to keep it all contained. Otherwise we move into a spike between enchant environments we are in.

Hate to say it but its a necessary evil.

Honestly, no it's not. It never was. Tons of pressure build never used much enchant removal at all. All you needed was to be intelligent and make good target choice and target switch. Have an interrupt or something to stop things like Aegis chains and that's more or less all you need.

You talk of Drain Enchant as if a 5s nerf and 2-3E less gained on it switched the whole enchantment control metagame. I agree that it was more used before, but honestly now i STILL think it wouldn't be used much in its current state because Me/E totally ignore inspiration and use GoLE as emanagement so they can have high dom + decent air and fast cast.

What Grenth allows is to IGNORE enemy enchants. Switching target already makes a single target enchant a small waste (not completely cause you forced a target change, but you'll have to do it again for next target), but Grenth makes them complete waste as it can just cut through every single one applied.

If Drain Enchant was still there, you would see Grenth just as much as you see him now because Drain Enchant NEVER offered anything CLOSE to what Grenth brings. Compare to other elite enchant removals, like say Shatterstorm. That can't remove anything close to what Grenth removes overall, and it's on constant recharge and you spend a lot of energy on it. Lingering Curses, Corrupt Enchantment... hell, even Dark Apostacy which is very close to Avatar of Grenth in effect isn't actually close in strength cause DA makes you lose energy and if you get to 0 it ends. Not to mention that it's an enchant with 2s cast so easy to interrupt (Grenth is 2 sec cast too, but 2s cast every 2 min that can be used out of range if needed).

Grenth turns pressure build into mindless trains. Good target picking? No need, just pick closest softie and stick your full team on his face. No need to switch if he gets prot or turns on a defensive stance, Grenth will get rid of all of it. It's seriously dumbing down the game, and there's a reason why so many teams run it atm, and it's because it's incredibly easy to feel like you're good at pressure when a Grenth makes sure the other team can't do anything about it.

If grenth wasn't so ridiculous, you could see Dervishes using Rending Touch for instance. If you see some nasty prot you don't want on target, remove it. It just has 10s recharge afterall. But atm Grenth >>> any other option, elite or non-elite, for enchant removal.

I really like the 10-15% sac idea. +2E to attack skills could work too.

Sinful Doom · Jan 12, 2007, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Think about it. Say they nerf grenths. What else are you going to use to consistently remove enchants? With aegis chains, SoA, and all the other def enchants flying around you are going to need something like grenths to keep it all contained. Otherwise we move into a spike between enchant environments we are in.

Well lets see what happens to GoLE first. If it gets toned down a little you might not see many more Mo/E running around. But then again there were many guilds that ran aegis chain's prior to NF's.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 12, 2007, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Drain Enchantment's nerf was a huge hit to enchantment removal, but it always served a different purpose than Grenth. What Drain did to the meta is prevent long-duration long-recharge enchantments from being run. It was much harder to bring a skill like Harrier's Grasp when you could count on every team having multiple Drain Enchantments on their monks and mesmers. The fact that Drain Enchantment is terrible e-management now is irrelevant to GoLE being run though. If GoLE didn't exist it wouldn't bring back Drain Enchantment, it would make teams find other options or just bring more physicals that don't need energy skills..

However, understand that Drain and Grenth were used as different purposes for enchant removal. Drain was never really ideal for firing into prot-stacks on trained targets - you could do it and you might hit something good, but there was just as much chance you'd strip a Reversal or Guardian. The only skills that have ever been used seriously in the same way as Grenth are Shatter Enchantment and OoA. Shatter because it has nice armor-ignoring damage effects that synergize well with target-training, and OOA for the same reason as Grenth - it repeatedly strips large numbers of enchants so that an HA IWAY team can feasably tear through a protstack.

I don't think a nerf to Grenth is going to make teams run Rending Touch though. That skill seems like it would be attractive on a melee guy, but in practice it's usually better to switch targets than spend cast + aftercast pulling a single enchantment. By the time you can attack again, the guy has likely been healed to full and the moment of opportunity has passed. Rending Touch would be nice for pulling the aforementioned long-duration enchants like Fire Attunement and Harrier's Grasp, but I don't think it's that useful when trying to train and kill a specific target. Better to let your team's mesmers handle that.