Curse

jktstance · Feb 18, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

I've been seeing more and more hammer warriors using energy attacks and stances, and spamming them a lot. However, I never see them use a zealous hammer. At all. I am wondering how they can possibly keep their energy up.

A build I saw just today went Backbreaker, Crushing Blow, Power Attack, Hammer Bash, Bull's Strike, Flail, Dash, Rez Sig. Power Attack was used often (not on recharge, but once every 10 seconds or so), Bull's Strike was of course used pretty much on recharge, and Dash was also important. I never saw the warrior use a zealous mod (or a vampiric mod as well, why?) yet he continued to spam energy skills.

Protector's Strike is also very common and drains a lot of energy as well.

Can someone enlighten me? In fact, I'm seeing fewer warriors weapon switch now and I'm not sure what mods they're using (perhaps they're being lazy and just using Sundering or Furious mods).

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 18, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

You generally don't want to use Zealous hammers. In theory you can get better returns from them while in IAS, but in practice you're going to miss or get blocked pretty frequently when hitting anything besides combat dummies. I've used them before on RaO thumpers with 33% IAS, but on a general hammer guy it's better to just run Vampiric and hit things harder.

Generally, using all of your energy skills on recharge or nearly on recharge is a bad idea. You see a lot of bad warrior players constantly riding their regen and never actually storing any energy reserves. They don't maintain that much constant pressure, and when that one extra Protector's Strike or Bull's Strike could force a kill, they often don't have the energy to use it in time. Giving a bad warrior a bar full of energy skills doesn't work for that reason - they'll constantly be at low energy and not able to use their skills when needed.

Good players aren't constantly in 'push' mode. Instead, they'll save their energy and adrenaline reserves, then coordinate an assault with their team that will break the enemy monks (through spikes, massive pressure, disruption, or whatever else.) If you're at 25 energy when you make your push you can spam skills like Power Attack and Protector's Strike on recharge over a short period, and the sudden burst of damage is often enough to break a team if it's coordinated properly.

That is, incidentally, the reason why thumpers are so effective in the hands of weaker players. They can spam all their energy skills on recharge and constantly sit in push mode while still being fairly effective. With a warrior, you play an energy heavy bar by saving energy and calling coordinated pushes. With a thumper, you play an energy-heavy bar by karate chopping your keyboard.

Novita · Feb 18, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Few people, if any, use zealous mods when running hammer wars.You will swing a hit every 1.75s compared to 1.25 of sword/axe, besides the warrior hate and kiting make it even more difficult to gain energy this way.

Sundering for primary slot, vampiric at spikes and elemental against wars is quite common. Furious may help when running a backbreaker template (average cost~9hits), dont know if it is that popular though.

Imo the main mods are sundering/vampiric and elemental for sword/axe. Zealous is pretty nice, but you need an attack rate boost(commonly frenzy) and free way to your damage input to make it worthy, so maybe thats why we dont see it that much. Find it specially annoying when players are just 'moving' with zealous weapons, since you loose an energy pip. Players that dont kite at all and/or paragons are inviting you to use your zealous weapon, frenzy and fill your energy

jktstance · Feb 18, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Weren't zealous warrior weapons ever popular in the past? Or am I just imagining things?

I swear, though, that I always see warriors spam bull's pretty much on recharge, and the occasional protector's. I must be underestimating the warrior's regen rate, even though it is pathetically slow

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 18, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Zealous axes and swords are still quite popular. I carry one into every GvG and always get some use out of it. With the faster swing speed of swords and axes it's a great way to quickly regen energy for the next push, or keep energy going a bit longer in the current one.

Also, Bull's has a long enough recharge and a strong enough effect that you can afford to use it on recharge even outside of push mode. It's one of the best and most versatile warrior skills and is almost always worth the effect, and you still have regen even when using it nearly on recharge.

Basically, when you're not making a push you want to be keeping up enough of a threat that they're still on their toes, but not so much that you're losing net energy.

Byron · Feb 19, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jktstance

Can someone enlighten me? In fact, I'm seeing fewer warriors weapon switch now and I'm not sure what mods they're using (perhaps they're being lazy and just using Sundering or Furious mods).

Hammers are always tricky with energy, mainly because it's very easy to hate a hammer warrior, with the slow swing rate and slow adrenaline building. As squidget said, zealous hammer aren't the answer. What it takes is careful management by maximizing efficiency. Trying to keep up an IAS while maintaining a cancel stance and an energy-based attack just isn't going to cut it. I've found myself having trouble even with frenzy/dash sometimes.

So, in short, it takes forethought and planning. It also takes a clever skillbar, IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novita

Furious may help when running a backbreaker template (average cost~9hits), dont know if it is that popular though.

I always use furious in my primary slot. It's a matter of taste, I suppose, and I'm also heavily prejudiced against sundering. Switch to vampiric for spikes, and switch to elemental for physical AL targets (warriors).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland squidget

Also, Bull's has a long enough recharge and a strong enough effect that you can afford to use it on recharge even outside of push mode

And when it consistently lands for 100+ damage in addition to the KD, there's no reason not to maximize it.

EDIT: Oh, oh! Bull's is also great for warrior control. What can't it do?

Manfred · Feb 19, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

fly? Deliver an interrupt to someone casting a 3s skill?

xcutioner · Feb 19, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

With a thumper, you play an energy-heavy bar by karate chopping your keyboard.

OWW! I think i just broke my hand.

Samster92 · Feb 23, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

I have always platyed as a warrior and i have started to play with Hammer Warriors a lot lately and i have discoverd that using Batherzars Spirt in your build makes it a lot faster for energy build up.

Yue · Feb 23, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

That's heavily dependent on getting hit. Not to mention it leaves you with 1 nugget of regen.

Bastian · Feb 23, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

That's heavily dependent on getting hit. Not to mention it leaves you with 1 nugget of regen.

Yeah, but with mending then you have 0 energy regen but 3 pips of health

.

Effigy · Feb 23, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samster92

I have always platyed as a warrior and i have started to play with Hammer Warriors a lot lately and i have discoverd that using Batherzars Spirt in your build makes it a lot faster for energy build up.

That would probably work in PvE, but this is the PvP forum.

Blame the Monks · Feb 23, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Good players aren't constantly in 'push' mode. Instead, they'll save their energy and adrenaline reserves ... and the sudden burst of damage is often enough to break a team if it's coordinated properly.

I disagree -- good players are constantly in "push" mode (at least in the sense of pushing = trying as hard as possible to reach a goal).

There is more to smart warrior play than saving adren/energy for pushes/spikes. Smart use also includes using the skills to maximize your efforts to reach your goal (goals being slowing a runner, getting offensive pressure off your team, out dpsing the other team's healing, etc). If your goal is to slow a runner, you sure as hell better be spamming bulls strike on recharge (assuming they aren't already KDed, etc). Likewise, if the goal is to dps, spamming your attack skills on recharge (on good targets) probably is the way to go. By contrast, in a pressure team saving adrenaline for a spike is completely counterproductive.

So I reject your hypothesis that bad warriors spam on recharge and good ones save. Instead, I submit that bad warriors use skills randomly while good warriors use skills strategically. in general, I would discourage warriors to try to save resources for pushes/spikes and encourage them to think about how to use the resources they have in the best way to reach their goals. Sometimes this means saving resources for spikes/pushes, but often it does not.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 24, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame The Monks

I disagree -- good players are constantly in "push" mode (at least in the sense of pushing = trying as hard as possible to reach a goal).

You and I have a different definition of 'push' then. When I say 'push', I'm referring to a warrior saving energy for a burst of damage, along with the rest of his team. Obviously the warrior's goal doesn't change whether he's in push mode or not, but making coordinated pushes rather than spamming randomly is a more effective means to achieve the warrior's goal.

Your goal as a flagstand warrior is to kill the other team, and obviously that's what you should always be focusing on. However, it's very rare that the best way to break the other team is to sit ride your regen or hit Prot Strike on recharge trying feebly to add onto your DPS.

To explain - there are only three ways to threaten the enemy team's monks to the point that people die. You can attack their energy pools (they're in high sets and you're still getting kills), their recharges (they're spamming skills as fast as possible and you're still getting kills), or their reaction times (spike!)

Hitting your skills on recharge trying to maximize DPS seems like it would threaten their energy, but in practice it doesn't work that way. The damage from a warrior riding the regen is steady, predictable, and generally non-threatening unless a team is already breaking. A warrior with a full energy bar hitting all of his skills on recharge over a short period is much scarier, since his damage is much higher over a short period and he forces 10e prots or infuses just to keep people alive. Likewise, consider that by saving his energy he hasn't really dropped his DPS at all, he's just focused it. 5 Prot Strikes directly in a row isn't any less damage than 5 prot strikes staggered over a period of 30 seconds, but being able to use them all at once creates a much bigger threat an allows you to force kills.

Threatening monk recharges works the same way. The only way to threaten recharges is with large bursts of damage, preferably on multiple targets. Spreading out your DPS allows them to easily cope with your damage through ultra-efficent long-recharge skills like Gift of Health and LoD.

And of course, saving for pushes makes you much more effective if you want to 321spike.

Obviously, a good warrior never loses focus on killing the other team. However, pushes are simply a more effective way to kill the other team than sitting on your 1-5 keys.

Thom Bangalter · Feb 24, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

with 1 being your frenzy key, squidget, would you say it's smart to at least sit on that one?

Byron · Feb 26, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samster92

Profession: W/Mo

Yeah.

As for the warrior philosophy, I always carved a middle road. Ideally, for a most effective warrior skill bar (IMO), there is one skill that can be consistently used for enhanced DPS or pressure. My favorite is bull's strike, but irresistible blow or prot strike would also work well on a hammer warrior, and this DPS skill can be used at liberty. If the skillbar can't fit a mildly spammable skill such as those, then there should be an easy cancel stance (ie, rush) so the warrior can at least IAS for DPS.

Without a DPS skill or an easy cancel, you get either a spike warrior or an ineffective warrior. Both of which I wouldn't suggest...

Undressed · Mar 02, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Hitting on recharge is way easier to counter and preprot then a sudden burst with being fully charged, having the energy to "frenzy, BB, crush, mighty, irres." for instance. That's why I believe that you don't need Gladiator's armour anymore and just use a full health set instead, unless you're a shock-axe.