Curse

Bugeater · Feb 26, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranmasama

Thats the general weakness to any heroway. Certain maps can destroy heroway because a proper split is impossible. Just get an npc advantage over them or even go for a split gank. Fighting them head on is obviously the harder route but is a must in Burning Isle. I should know since we heroway but with sf/thumpers. Splits>Heroway except for burning isle.

Please read the thread before posting.

Kabale · Feb 27, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Discord

5/1/2

Target foe takes 20..44..52 damage and an extra 1..13..17 damage if affected by a condition, 1..13..17 damage if hexed and 1..13..17 damage if enchanted.

This way, Discord would unconditionally do 52 damage - ok for armor ignoring damage on 5/1/2 (basically a non-sac Dark Pact). Now if as you meet requirements, the damage becomes more and more interesting. If all requirements are met, the target at level 16 Death would take 100 damage, still significantly under the 115 they take now and less of a sure straight kill spike, but mostly there's one requirement you DO NOT control (the while enchanted), so your team can only control up to 83 of that damage. If the other team decides to not use enchantments (and you'd be a fool to do it if you faced a Discord spike), you just won't kill with Discords and so as a spike build it becomes highly unreliable and thus would just vanish.

But Discord itself would become a much better, much more versatile skill that could be interesting to add pressure damage to a more balanced setup.

That sounds like a plausible idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

No. There are still players in TA that try to do damage using a caster (eles, lone channeling rit, random discord dork that wandered in from RA) and there are, from time to time, whole teams whose plan for doing damage is almost exclusively of the 61+ packet size with little to no enchantment removal. In such instances, those players/teams get a "spirit bond > your build" post-match comment to let them know where they went wrong.

Yes, but Shatter Storm > Spirit Bond at the end of the day xD But yeah, I somehow wandered into TA from RA the other day, and thanked Dwayna I had Spirit Bond on my bar. I'd always strayed away from it previously but it's my new favorite toy.

On-Topic, I suppose the Discord team we faced once in GvG weren't really aware of disease and didn't have any Jaggeds up to cause bleeding, so it was prety easy for me to deal with the spikes. We didn't exactly face the makers of this build so they probably didn't have a clue

LifesRestorer · Feb 27, 2007, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

That's true to an extent. Just as spirit bond > lamentation/gaze/spirit burn, but:

shatter storm > spirit bond

2 second recharge? i think not

they will burn out of energy faster than you do. you only need to use one skill

if in the event you do start to run low, the other monk should be able to cover you for long enough before you get a glyph, meaning 2 free spirit bonds

Lord Oranos · Feb 28, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

No plz. Once people find a way to bypass that it's just as overpowered as it is now. Just make it less conditional, but restore the dmg to how it was. Or make it do low dmg unconditionally, but add dmg for each condition met (hexed, enchanted or conditioned).

Could you give me an example of how it could be bypassed, as you would have to apply your own condition to the target?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Nobody uses it now, except for heroes! So I fail to see your point.

Sorry, I guess guilds not on obs mode don't matter.

Even with the changes, I think once its been nerfed, you wont see it again in a gvg match.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 28, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

Could you give me an example of how it could be bypassed, as you would have to apply your own condition to the target?

I don't know. Maybe load your bar with 3 conditions, 3 hexes, res sig and discord? It's not important. The point is that if you do that you have another skill that's either overpowered or useless depending on if people find a way to get around the conditional ('jump through the hoop' as Ensign would say).
It would mean Anet started out with a conditional skill that sucked (the original Discord that did ~80 dmg), and ends up with an even more conditional skill that sucks, instead of making it a not-so-conditional skill that doesn't suck.

Lord Oranos · Mar 01, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I don't know. Maybe load your bar with 3 conditions, 3 hexes, res sig and discord? It's not important. The point is that if you do that you have another skill that's either overpowered or useless depending on if people find a way to get around the conditional ('jump through the hoop' as Ensign would say).
It would mean Anet started out with a conditional skill that sucked (the original Discord that did ~80 dmg), and ends up with an even more conditional skill that sucks, instead of making it a not-so-conditional skill that doesn't suck.

True, its very conditional, but even with itself, at 14 death, its around 52dps(provided constant spam), heavy, but it has a disadvantage of being shut down easily. The idea that I proposed was more to stop the team spiking, instead of making it back into a skill that sucks. Though the damage+conditional damage on top makes it more versatile, I think that it would still be a problem if you could still have all team members attacking on a condition one person casted.

I like the proposed versatile Discord, though 83 damage at 16 death seems weak. Maybe cap it at 90?(controllable damage, NOT base damage)

Patrick Smit · Mar 01, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Spiking is not about DPS, its about delivery of deadly packages in little time to kill someone. Discord allows spiking anyone as its armor ignoring.

Lord Oranos · Mar 01, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Spiking is not about DPS, its about delivery of deadly packages in little time to kill someone. Discord allows spiking anyone as its armor ignoring.

I know that, my idea was to stop team Discord spikes.

Chilly Ress · Mar 02, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

I was guesting for an alliance guild, who, at the time ranked 73, at around 1:00 P.M. EST, faced three straight European teams who were running 5 players, 3 heroes, 4 players, 4 heroes, and 4 players and 4 heroes respectively. All of which we lost to and all of which we faced on Jade Isle. The spikes are right near impossible to catch and the overall pressure with the minions is actually fairly difficult to keep up with. I agree completely with the fact that if a build, any build, with 4 heroes and not actual players can beat several guilds, in this case, extremely talented and high-ranked guilds, you've got to believe that something is utterly wrong with the balancing of the skills being used and, in this case, exploited. It seems this thread is nearly a cry for help to Izzy to get his lazy butt off the couch and do his job.

~Chill

Sertu · Mar 02, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

we got beaten by the same team yesterday. since we're spike its a hard match up. We can kill them very easy but with each kill more minios pop up and with no corpse control we're Firetruckerd up. We held them back for 'bout 10 minutes then it was over.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 02, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

I'll agree that making the skill do some piddling amount of damage when the condtions aren't met will fix it. That way the heroes won't auto-search for the perfect target. they'll just spam like retards. Discord isn't that effective when used by humans simply because it's so damn tedious to find a target who meets the criteria and spike him before the situation changes.

Patrograd · Mar 02, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

That way the heroes won't auto-search for the perfect target. they'll just spam like retards. Discord isn't that effective when used by humans simply because it's so damn tedious to find a target who meets the criteria and spike him before the situation changes.

not if you make the build properly it isnt, not really. if you run disease on one or two necros, and enfeeble on all your necros, and shamblings/jaggeds, you can guarantee that most of the other team will have a condition on them of some sort. if you run AOE hexes like suffering, shadow of fear, vocal minority, ice spikes etc etc and ensure they are covered then you can guarantee pretty much that most of the other team will be hexed. Pick a target, like the RC or divert monk, and spike. if he doesnt go down, press tab and repeat. Keep doing this until stuff dies. Its easier with heroes because they dont miss the opportunity to spike as long as you keep pressing their discord button and the minion necro will never miss a corpse

Patccmoi · Mar 02, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

I like the proposed versatile Discord, though 83 damage at 16 death seems weak. Maybe cap it at 90?(controllable damage, NOT base damage)

You can reach higher if they're enchanted.

The thing is, always consider that the higher damage a skill those, the most likely it'll just end up as a spike skill.

At 80 damage, Discord would be nice but not that spiky. With 5/1/2, it can then become a reasonable pressure damage skill that doesn't burn all your energy and yet does appreciable damage, allowing you to use the rest of your bar for hexes, conditions, different utility, etc. I.e. make a Necro guy that can fit well in a balanced pressure team.

Lord Oranos · Mar 03, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

You can reach higher if they're enchanted.

The thing is, always consider that the higher damage a skill those, the most likely it'll just end up as a spike skill.

At 80 damage, Discord would be nice but not that spiky. With 5/1/2, it can then become a reasonable pressure damage skill that doesn't burn all your energy and yet does appreciable damage, allowing you to use the rest of your bar for hexes, conditions, different utility, etc. I.e. make a Necro guy that can fit well in a balanced pressure team.

*sigh*.....damnit, I guess it had to hit the block sooner or later

Ive been running something like this for awhile Discord, Enfeeble, Para Bond, Mending Touch, Restfull Breeze, and two optionals.

I concede.... it was a fun toy for ahwile.

If youd make it still do 80 at 14 death, Id love you though.

Thom Bangalter · Mar 03, 2007, 05:44 AM // 05:44

well, you're in luck oranos, that's what I think they're going to do with it. turn it into a reasonable pressure tool instead of a metagame breaking spike too.

primitiveworker · Mar 03, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Just make heroes unavailable in HA/GvG, problem solved. Then it won't matter how sort-of overpowered they are because it'll all be against other AI trash.

Agreed. Leave heroes in PvE and in the hero-specific arena and avoid the whole mess, which is sure to appear again in some other skillset as soon as this set is nerfed.

HolyHawk · Mar 04, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Problem we found was not the spike itself, but the army of minions that are made. We start killing them quite easilly, but as soon as a shrambling is up, we fall under pressure. Funny thing is, every single team we faced in burning isle, we won. We fought MATH on corrupted, and we lost. Backline just can't hold. I'm starting to agree with removing heroes from gvg, and leave it a man-only pvp format. It's sad to fight AI with instant response, and even if they are dumb enough to kill themselves with certain skills, they excel real people in most.

tomcruisejr · Mar 04, 2007, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Hi.

The thing is that you guys didnt engage the necro split. You just let us make minions from the npcs and let them minions overwhelm you. You shouldve engaged us and took our heroes down.

The teams that beat us in our run are the ones who engaged us head on - removed conditions, hexes, healed/infused great and just killed our damn heroes which never got the chance to raise minions and us, iway noobs, as well. (I think one was even in Observer mode ^^).

You can do it next time.

Anyway, and to those who wanna run with heroes, putting spirits in heroes' bar is ftl

And why the hate on discord? We Hate Pve is now top 6 with ritualist spike zomg.

Winstar · Mar 04, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

they both deserve hate.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 04, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Yeah, like the community could ever hate more than one guild at a time. What color is the sky in your world, Winstar?