Curse

Snype · Feb 24, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomD22

Heroes, discord, it's all fine.

The real problem (and not just regarding discord builds) is the sentinels on burning isle, which still make splitting from the start time/player consuming enough that teams with a powerful spike (discord, rits, bloodspike, etc) can wipe your base before you can get a proper split going.

LOLOLOLOLOL...

k, so why did [eF] get defeated on IMPERIAL isle?

exactly kthxbye

Divinus Stella · Feb 24, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snype

LOLOLOLOLOL...

k, so why did [eF] get defeated on IMPERIAL isle?

exactly kthxbye

LOLOLOLOL

k, so eF underestimated them

exactly kthnxbye

Lord Mendes · Feb 24, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

LOLOLOLOL

k, so eF underestimated them

exactly kthnxbye

LOLOLOLOL

k, see a patern?

exactly kthnxbye

Lord Oranos · Feb 25, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Maybe make the description to that it only triggers on conditions dealt by you.

around · Feb 25, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

In other news, yesterday I was speccing Drunken Love Machine vs. two well known top 100 guilds. One ran a Mo/Me smiter with mantra of Inscriptions and Signet of Judgment and a R/A assassin, the other was running a fairly conventional build. Guess who won and who lost.

Admittedly eF DID have experience of playing Discord before, but still, it just shows you the general level of most Discord players.

Former Ruling · Feb 25, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Its called PvP not PvsAI.

Ban the Guild Lord!

--------

The problem is every other Obs match has Discord involved. Half the time it gets owned, but that doesn't really matter since with current rating system it isn't really "Hard" just to farm the ladder - as long as you get more wins than loses you go up in rating at the end of the day.

The build is mighty effective in that regards, especially since it only requires 4 humans.

EDIT: My Fix. Make Discord deal a low unconditional dmg, and have the rest of the dmg come from meeting the condition. Like deals 10 dmg, and +[x] more if under a condition and Enchant/hex. This totally bypasses the Hero's AI.

The problem most people are noting is Heros can auto-find the condition/hexed target and spike him - If Discord dealt unconditional dmg this wouldn't happen since Heros will use any skill that deals unconditional damage recklessly without regard of its secondary effects or conditions - meaning they would just drain their energy spitting out 10 dmg discords as it recharges, or the humans would have to disable Discord and activate it themselves - in which case its just more effective to bring humans..

This is the best way for them to nerf the Hero build without having to really touch the skill itself (SInce if used by a human it still does the same dmg and such), or how Heros are used overall. This is seperate from the fuss that Discord itself (even on a human team) is overpowered, but I haven't seen that myself.

tomcruisejr · Feb 25, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

if one guild which specializes in this Discord way (with heroes or not) suddenly put themselves in top 3 of the ladder (or better), just like what Sweetie Animal Girl [Cute] did with IWAY (which warranted its nerf, fyi), then discord way must be nerfed.

otherwise, let's all cry more, i guess.

and discordway, the discord spike is VERY predictable and conditional (will kick in when these conditions, target is conditioned AND hexed or conditioned AND enchanted are met). look at ritualist spike, there is no need to hex and condition the target. just spam spirits and mash button with control aka spike away. and to top that, the 1/4 cast finisher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

The problem most people are noting is Heros can auto-find the condition/hexed target and spike him - If Discord dealt unconditional dmg this wouldn't happen since Heros will use any skill that deals unconditional damage recklessly without regard of its secondary effects or conditions - meaning they would just drain their energy spitting out 10 dmg discords as it recharges, or the humans would have to disable Discord and activate it themselves - in which case its just more effective to bring humans..

this is not true. they don't auto-find the hexed+ conditioned target unless you direct them. when you are scanning targets and you called a prior target, your heroes will concentrate on that.

what's good about heroes is that they use their skills accordingly. they use discord when the conditions are met. why complain about that? it's like saying that "heroes use their skills accordingly and most human don't so make heroes use their skills whenever its recharged".

but you know what, what's bad about heroes is that they don't mind about their energy. if you played discordway with heroes, youll notice that heroes use deathly chill when a target is highlighted and its in their aggro circle and they spam the skill when the human caller is in idle/scan mode. moreover, heroes use deathly chill first and they use discord as their finisher. so the target is almost dead before they use their "overpowered" skill.

LifesRestorer · Feb 25, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

havent really read this through but i have one thing to say.

Spirit bond > discord

Tingi · Feb 25, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

havent really read this through but i have one thing to say.

Spirit bond > discord

QFT

We have only faced 2 Discord hero teams so far - both of em middleish rank about 400...we flawlessed em both fast.

Now people know about these team - they are easy to beat.

Divineshadows · Feb 25, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

Spirit bond > discord

That's true to an extent. Just as spirit bond > lamentation/gaze/spirit burn, but:

shatter storm > spirit bond

Lord Oranos · Feb 26, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

Maybe make the description to that it only triggers on conditions dealt by you.

Any thoughts on that idea? If it is nerfed, Id like it to be still worth the elite slot. Nobody used it when it was lower, Id hate to see it happen again.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 26, 2007, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

Any thoughts on that idea? If it is nerfed, Id like it to be still worth the elite slot. Nobody used it when it was lower, Id hate to see it happen again.

No plz. Once people find a way to bypass that it's just as overpowered as it is now. Just make it less conditional, but restore the dmg to how it was. Or make it do low dmg unconditionally, but add dmg for each condition met (hexed, enchanted or conditioned).

Patrograd · Feb 26, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tan Blademaster

QFT

We have only faced 2 Discord hero teams so far - both of em middleish rank about 400...we flawlessed em both fast.

Now people know about these team - they are easy to beat.

Its not the ones at this rank that are hard to beat, its the ones higher up. The ones at rank 400 or so are really rank 1000+ teams who have abused this build to beat noobs, and once they hit sub 500 they struggle badly. The issue lies with the teams who are really rank 100-200 and have a reasonable grasp of the game and the tactics needed to run an 8v8 build and have climbed the ladder from their "proper" rank to sub 100 running this lame rubbish.

Yes, spirit bond owns the spike completely, especially when paired with restore conditions. but spirit bond is 10 energy, and these spikes come hard and fast. The better teams switch their targets constantly, and this makes it impossible to continually spirit bond the target.

Kabale · Feb 26, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

shatter storm > spirit bond

LOL update your sig, dude :P

On topic, draw conditions > this build. Just prot the draw guy and if he's quick there's basically no damage. I've done this and it's not terribly difficult. They don't spam conditions (the ones I faced never had rotting or anything but I suppose they could and that could make it harder), so it should be easy to tell where the damage is heading.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 26, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Good teams running this build spread conditions and hexes everywhere (with so many necros they have easy access to disease and Parasitic Bond), then just spike as fast as they can count down. Even if your Draw guy is relatively on the ball, he'll be hard pressed to catch spikes on random targets every 3 seconds. It's the recharge of Discord that makes this build scary, not just the damage and cast times.

vapor311 · Feb 26, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Good teams running this build spread conditions and hexes everywhere (with so many necros they have easy access to disease and Parasitic Bond), then just spike as fast as they can count down. Even if your Draw guy is relatively on the ball, he'll be hard pressed to catch spikes on random targets every 3 seconds. It's the recharge of Discord that makes this build scary, not just the damage and cast times.

And there lies the problem here. Games vs Discord teams don't typically last long. Either you wipe them quickly or they will pressure you out. Between jagged horrors, disease, and weakness there will be conditions on most of your team, coupled with the availabilty of multiple area hexes meaning that the amount of targets to prot is rather large. Your backline will burn through its energy pool quickly using 10e spirit bonds and infuses to stop the 5e spammable DD, which is further fueled by large soul reaping gains.

I'm not suggesting in any way that it is unbeatable, but it is certainly imbalanced. The ease in which the conditions are met, coupled with it's aggressive recharge, high amount of armor ignoring damage, and energy cost outclass any other DD the necro has.

Ec]-[oMaN · Feb 26, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

If it is nerfed, Id like it to be still worth the elite slot. Nobody used it when it was lower, Id hate to see it happen again.

Nobody uses it now, except for heroes! So I fail to see your point.

Divineshadows · Feb 26, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

LOL update your sig, dude :P

No. There are still players in TA that try to do damage using a caster (eles, lone channeling rit, random discord dork that wandered in from RA) and there are, from time to time, whole teams whose plan for doing damage is almost exclusively of the 61+ packet size with little to no enchantment removal. In such instances, those players/teams get a "spirit bond > your build" post-match comment to let them know where they went wrong.

Patccmoi · Feb 26, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

I like the suggestion of Discord doing a base damage + some damage for each requirement met on target. Not just to nerf hero use, but to balance the skill as a whole. It needs an overall nerf though.

I could see it be something like:

Discord

5/1/2

Target foe takes 20..44..52 damage and an extra 1..13..17 damage if affected by a condition, 1..13..17 damage if hexed and 1..13..17 damage if enchanted.

This way, Discord would unconditionally do 52 damage - ok for armor ignoring damage on 5/1/2 (basically a non-sac Dark Pact). Now if as you meet requirements, the damage becomes more and more interesting. If all requirements are met, the target at level 16 Death would take 100 damage, still significantly under the 115 they take now and less of a sure straight kill spike, but mostly there's one requirement you DO NOT control (the while enchanted), so your team can only control up to 83 of that damage. If the other team decides to not use enchantments (and you'd be a fool to do it if you faced a Discord spike), you just won't kill with Discords and so as a spike build it becomes highly unreliable and thus would just vanish.

But Discord itself would become a much better, much more versatile skill that could be interesting to add pressure damage to a more balanced setup.

ranmasama · Feb 26, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomD22

Heroes, discord, it's all fine.

The real problem (and not just regarding discord builds) is the sentinels on burning isle, which still make splitting from the start time/player consuming enough that teams with a powerful spike (discord, rits, bloodspike, etc) can wipe your base before you can get a proper split going.

Thats the general weakness to any heroway. Certain maps can destroy heroway because a proper split is impossible. Just get an npc advantage over them or even go for a split gank. Fighting them head on is obviously the harder route but is a must in Burning Isle. I should know since we heroway but with sf/thumpers. Splits>Heroway except for burning isle.