Curse

RazielFirestorm · Mar 01, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

reading about the warrior packs people take theres a discussion over what is better, vamp or sundering.

and while axe and sword i think sundering is better i still dont know about hammer(similar to scythe).

because of the slow attack rate and chances to miss a hit, i am unsure which is the better choice for a scythe.

the build i would be using this in uses heavy melee pressure:

(2 derv and a dragon slash) backed up by a gtfe paragon and elementalist. pressure is the main thing we do but it can definately spike often aswell if we need to.

im not too great at all the math calculation but any idea how the 2 would stack up?

Zui · Mar 01, 2007, 11:39 AM // 11:39

DPS wise: Vampiric is king.

Big criticals that kill people wise: Sundering all the way.

I'd honestly carry both around in my pack if I were playing a Dervish, but I probably wouldn't use the Vampiric that much, since like I said, big criticals kill people.

DIH49 · Mar 01, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Sundering for me, no question. Big crits make me very happy and help me kill my enemies.

holden · Mar 01, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

scyth is too slow to use vamp. with all the warrior hate you're missing too often to consider a vamp mod.

sundering and ebon.

Byron · Mar 01, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Sundering stacks much better on a weapon with higher damage; on a critical hit, you can get 20+ more damage if sundering triggers.

Sundering
Ebon
Crippling (harrier's grasp)
20% Enchanting staff (for energy to get form, and heart of fury)

If you're running enchantment speed/damage buffs, don't forget the enchant mods on the scythes.

masteroflife · Mar 01, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Only Axe bow spear Hammer and Scythe worth using Sundering mods for spikes. Vamp is better for low base damage weapons such as daggers, swords.

JR · Mar 01, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by masteroflife

Only Axe bow spear Hammer and Scythe worth using Sundering mods for spikes.

Axe and Hammer is arguable that Sundering might be a better choice. Bow really isn't, at all.

Clinically Proven · Mar 01, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

As I pretty much play pressure over spike, scythe is the only one I'd run sunder as primary weapon mod. That huge +damage bonus is too good to go past and the slow swing rate makes vamp much less attractive.

Sunder on bow: only with a hornbow in a ranger spike please.

RazielFirestorm · Mar 01, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

thanks for the replies, thats what i needed to know.

DIH49 · Mar 01, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Axe and Hammer is arguable that Sundering might be a better choice. Bow really isn't, at all.

Arguable only from people who don't play lots of hammer warrior. Sundering all the way!

Thom Bangalter · Mar 02, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

<3 david. not gonna lie.

DvM · Mar 04, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

on axes swords and hammers, vamperic is better, this has been discussed to death and the math clearly shows that vamperic deals more damage. period.

for scythes, I think it does not matter that much, would take both, if there is lots of warrior hate and your missing alot, switch to sundering, if not, vamperic all the way.

Franco Power · Mar 04, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by masteroflife

Only Axe bow spear Hammer and Scythe worth using Sundering mods for spikes. Vamp is better for low base damage weapons such as daggers, swords.

Sundering is a worthless mod on a Bow,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinically Proven

As I pretty much play pressure over spike, scythe is the only one I'd run sunder as primary weapon mod. That huge +damage bonus is too good to go past and the slow swing rate makes vamp much less attractive.

Sunder on bow: only with a hornbow in a ranger spike please.

Actually it's vampiric on a hornbow and sundering on the longbows.

_____________________

A Scythe base dmg is 9-41 , a bow is 15-28, seeing a difference here?

DIH49 · Mar 05, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DvM

on axes swords and hammers, vamperic is better, this has been discussed to death and the math clearly shows that vamperic deals more damage. period.

Except that, as anyone who actually plays hammer warrior knows, pure DPS doesn't kill a damn thing. What kills people is when you trigger your sundering bulls into a sundering crushing and, if you get really lucky, a sundering power attack/mighty/heavy-hitter of choice.

Greedy Gus · Mar 06, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

And if you get really lucky, no one will cast a RoF on your target for those 3 seconds. Don't be stupid, of course a lucky sundering combo will lead to some serious DKP, but completely discounting hammer's vamp DPS is a mistake.

DIH49 · Mar 06, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

And if you get really lucky, no one will cast a RoF on your target for those 3 seconds. Don't be stupid, of course a lucky sundering combo will lead to some serious DKP, but completely discounting hammer's vamp DPS is a mistake.

Not really. The difference in DPS is fairly marginal even in ideal circumstances. In reality you'll mostly be doing damage to yourself, not the enemy with vamp up. When you do get the chance to hit, you want to use sundering to chance one of the situations I just commented on.

Patrick Smit · Mar 06, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Greedy Gus, you think too much in perspective of only one attacker, no, how much attacks can a rof stop?

Indeed just one, so if there are three attackers hitting the target, 2 will get through, and big criticals will not be completly negated by RoF, the damage over will be subtracted from the amount healed. SO a big critical of 126 damage will be healing only 0, the damage is mitigated. Thats all, so big criticals are better, cause a small critical that is not sundering will do approximately 15 damage less, so heal 15 that need be corrected with -5 from vamp.

Now we could continue saying the target is under PS as well, but sundering is generally better when there are more attackers and unexpectedly attacked., it will still cost 0.75 to 1 second to put up those protections.

Divinus Stella · Mar 06, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

The bit crits kill people is a poor reason to use sundering, getting +15 dmg on a hit every 5 isnt gonna take a monk by suprise, if sundering did +150 every 50 hits then i could understand, the guy is gonna get infused before he gets to that low, if the monk has no energy, then you woulda killed him faster with the extra DPS from vamp.

Bugeater · Mar 06, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

Except that, as anyone who actually plays hammer warrior knows, pure DPS doesn't kill a damn thing. What kills people is when you trigger your sundering bulls into a sundering crushing and, if you get really lucky, a sundering power attack/mighty/heavy-hitter of choice.

I realize that you're just regurgitating something you read, but I still have an issue with people saying that DPS is what kills people, or spikes are what kill people, or that lucky sundering hits kill people.

What kills people is taking their protection and healing out of the picture.

Whether you do this because their monk thinks they'll be safe for another swing and you lucky sundercrit them, or because certain members of your team have shut the monks down while other members kill the target, or because you spike so fast the monks can't react, or because the monks are out of energy due to pressure, or because all the monk's skills are recharging... doesn't mean that that's the way you kill things. If you pigeon-hole yourself into thinking there's one way to kill someone, then you're missing out on kills you could have otherwise gotten if you'd left your brain in gear.

Patrick Smit · Mar 06, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

The bit crits kill people is a poor reason to use sundering, getting +15 dmg on a hit every 5 isnt gonna take a monk by suprise, if sundering did +150 every 50 hits then i could understand, the guy is gonna get infused before he gets to that low, if the monk has no energy, then you woulda killed him faster with the extra DPS from vamp.

I calculated in another topic that when there are three attackers there is a 50% chance of at least on crit, 10 % on 2 or more. This means 50% chance on 15 extra or more damage, 10 % chance on 30 extra or more damage. Compared to vampiric which is constant at 9. (this was based on axes). Its no use using sundering when the target is protected (with PS), but when unprotected it offers an advantage. I was like anyone else convinced that vampiric was better out of the DPS argument. However when we discussed in that topic a bit the effects of sundering, my mind became a bit more appreciative towards the effects of sundering.