Curse

JR · Mar 02, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

And JR, how many times does that actually happen?

Enough to make it attractive over Devastating in some situations.

holden · Mar 02, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

We run a Dslash warrior in a condition pressure build and it works quite well, but we do have 3 other quite splittable characters in the build.

And JR, how many times does that actually happen? I mean, it's ADJACENT range....

once in a while knocking down an adjacent monk casting aegis isn't too bad.

a nice push could be made after.

Swiffle · Mar 02, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

How often does it happen?
Here's common scenarios where i'd hit multiple when I played Earth Shaker in order of occurance:

1) 2+ tanks training or about to spike a target.
2) Thumpers and pets. Not as useful, but hey it's adjacent most of the time.
3) Deep frozen targets that can't get away.
4) Body blocks. Trying to stop our flagger? slam em all to the ground
5) Kiting a tank or something building adrenaline overtop of something else to hit them both. Not many situations for this, i.e. killing lord, monks are dead, a tank is trying to buy time. pulled him over the lord and maintained full dps.

Divineshadows · Mar 09, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

We talkin 'bout the same guild wars? Bull's Charge is an amazing skill that's especially strong on a skirmish character.

The last time I've designed a build for GvG, HA, or TA and wanted a bull's charge warrior over dragon slash, eviscerate, dev hammer, backbreaker, earthshaker, or shadow prison was .... well, never. The last time I've actually cared that someone on the opposing team was running bull's charge was either late August or early September. I called it over vent so that the person on my GvG team playing the air ele was aware of it and left it at that and my team won the match.

You say it's strong in skirmish. Typically, skills that are strong in skirmish are also strong in TA (troll unguent and healing signet are some exceptions). Bull's charge is not a good skill to bring in TA. Quite simply, I feel that bull's charge is weaker than other options. The existence of bull's strike is a big reason for this. Bull's strike can net you 6 seconds of knockdown every 20 seconds, is not elite, and does bonus damage. Bull's charge can net you 9 seconds of knockdown every 20 seconds, but in practice rarely does.

Morganas · Mar 09, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

The last time I've designed a build for GvG, HA, or TA and wanted a bull's charge warrior over dragon slash, eviscerate, dev hammer, backbreaker, earthshaker, or shadow prison was .... well, never. The last time I've actually cared that someone on the opposing team was running bull's charge was either late August or early September. I called it over vent so that the person on my GvG team playing the air ele was aware of it and left it at that and my team won the match.

That your guild beat a team running it is evidence of nothing. Kiting is the best way to counter warrior pressure, and bull's charge shuts that down. With gauntlets, it can take a monk out of the game for a significant amount of time, and let a warrior build up adrenaline. For a split situation, it works best in a 2 man team, the bulls charge warrior preventing the ganker from escaping, and the other splitter doing the real damage.

Quote:

You say it's strong in skirmish. Typically, skills that are strong in skirmish are also strong in TA (troll unguent and healing signet are some exceptions). Bull's charge is not a good skill to bring in TA. Quite simply, I feel that bull's charge is weaker than other options. The existence of bull's strike is a big reason for this. Bull's strike can net you 6 seconds of knockdown every 20 seconds, is not elite, and does bonus damage. Bull's charge can net you 9 seconds of knockdown every 20 seconds, but in practice rarely does.

I'm not sure how you could say this, considering it's been obviously untrue since the beginning of guild wars. The name of the game for guild wars skirmishers is mobility, versatility (ability to function alone as well as in a team), and self sufficiency. None of these matter for a TA character, who will always be in the same 4 man group, will never have to run, and is focused on killing players, not npcs.

Concerning bulls charge vs bulls strike, unlike in TA, you frequently encounter situations where a person isn't just kiting (where bulls strike might be sufficient), but where they're actually running some distance to a particular destination. This includes retreats from a base gank, retreats from the stand, or a monk trying to move forward to heal a dying overextender. Bulls charge will get you the kill in these situations far more than bulls strike will.

Divineshadows · Mar 10, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

That your guild beat a team running it is evidence of nothing. Kiting is the best way to counter warrior pressure, and bull's charge shuts that down. With gauntlets, it can take a monk out of the game for a significant amount of time, and let a warrior build up adrenaline.

Your anti-melee can do their best to shutdown the bull's charge warrior for the duration of the stance (9 to 10 seconds) by snaring the warrior, linebacking the warrior, or keeping the warrior blind. While the stance is down, the monk can kite freely and the opposing warrior should be building adrenaline on something other than the monk. I'm really of the opinion that Z, despite the fact that he is out of his mind thinking that shadow prison needs a 15 second recharge, has here about bull's charge -- it sucks in light of the fact that there are more efficient options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

I'm not sure how you could say this, considering it's been obviously untrue since the beginning of guild wars. The name of the game for guild wars skirmishers is mobility, versatility (ability to function alone as well as in a team), and self sufficiency. None of these matter for a TA character, who will always be in the same 4 man group, will never have to run, and is focused on killing players, not npcs.

Actually, most of those things matter for TA characters. Mobility (and tools to limit the opposition's mobility) is very important in TA, versatility is important in-so-much as you want character builds that can adapt to situations to put shutdown or pressure in key places, and self sufficiency in terms of self condition removal is also very strong to have on melee and rangers in TA. The only main difference between strong GvG skirmish templates and strong TA templates is the lack of a self heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Concerning bulls charge vs bulls strike, unlike in TA, you frequently encounter situations where a person isn't just kiting (where bulls strike might be sufficient), but where they're actually running some distance to a particular destination. This includes retreats from a base gank, retreats from the stand, or a monk trying to move forward to heal a dying overextender. Bulls charge will get you the kill in these situations far more than bulls strike will.

A warrior with an elite hammer knockdown and bull's strike generates far more knockdowns than a bull's charge warrior can. An axe warrior with bull's strike and shock can generate about the same number of knockdowns as a bull's charge warrior. The difference being that these templates have elites that are more useful toward getting kills in more situations.

yesitsrob · Mar 10, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Sorry but saying Bull's Charge is bad is completely wrong. Comparing a Skirmish to TA is also quite wrong. Bull's Charge warriors with Mending Touch and Heal Sig are an absolutely fantastic split character right now in GVG.

So, I just went to make an edit on the previous thread you made to find it got moved and I lost all I typed up.

First of all - my intent was not to compare Dragonslash to Bull's Charge for condition pressure - to be quite honest that's just stupid, and I think anyone would be wrong to say Bull's Charge can put out more pressure.

However - if you compare the common Bull's Charge build that quite a number of guilds are running to a Dragonslash warrior for being flexible and wandering off in his own for skirmishes at other parts of the map there is absolutely no argument which is better.

A Dragonslash warrior is pretty much capble of dishing out pressure at the stand - He cannot split... His bar conisists of 4 attack skills (or 5 with protector's strike) - with the other 3 or 4 skills having to include IAS, Speed boost and a Res Sig. Yes it will pressure like mad at the stand, but it won't do anything else.

Shadow Prison warrior, again - Sig Malice is about the only condition removal he can take - rather unreliable at times (you can't spread conditions blind or maybe you don't want your apply poison ranger or whatever splitting with you) - let's face it... it's another build that has one real purpose, and that's Spiking.... very easy spiking for retards kind of spiking.

On Bull's Strike + Rush/Sprint - it comes with flaws that Bull's charge doesn't have:
Rush requires adrenaline, something you won't have if you're running from a flag stand to your base to split defensively
It's also 2 skill slots - which will reduce your number of attacks or utility again.

Bull's Charge has the speed boost and the snare in one. which gives you plenty of room for 3 attack skills (sever, gash, final) and room for a res, ias, condition removal, and a heal (making a pretty goddamn good split warrior) - so you have condition spreading, and a powerful spike in gash and final - and although the while moving knockdowns don't do what dragonslash do it is still significant pressure.

When you compare it to other possible split warrior builds in the meta, there's like YAA - which has pretty much died since it took a significant nerf and everyone and their grandma brings mending touch now anyway.
Compare it to hammer warriors - they require adrenaline for knockdowns - something you might not have if you've just travelled from a split - I run hammer warrior myself, and I have no room for a Heal Signet, it splits like shit. in other words.

As far as other options go - I think MH came up with some really interesting split warrior builds, the shove shadow walk guy was pretty awesome, but even that lacked condition removal (which i think is pretty important considering the huge number of BA rangers around)

Just to point out: I personally don't run Bull's Charge, I Dev Hammer, but the guy who I warrior with does, and he splits so effecitvely. You'd be pretty wrong to tell us that we'd be better off with a Dragonslash warrior because we sure as hell wouldn't.

Morganas · Mar 10, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Your anti-melee can do their best to shutdown the bull's charge warrior for the duration of the stance (9 to 10 seconds) by snaring the warrior, linebacking the warrior, or keeping the warrior blind. While the stance is down, the monk can kite freely and the opposing warrior should be building adrenaline on something other than the monk. I'm really of the opinion that Z, despite the fact that he is out of his mind thinking that shadow prison needs a 15 second recharge, has here about bull's charge -- it sucks in light of the fact that there are more efficient options.

This is true of any warrior, but in fact a bulls charge warrior is less effected by anti-melee than many other options. If a dragon slasher gets blinded at a key time, or even gets the wrong attack blocked, his entire chain is ruined for quite some time. The same is true of many hammer warrior builds (not all though). A bulls charge warrior is very hard to counter with blind, since he can simply get it drawn off or something, and he's lost no integral part of a skill chain, since his stance is still up.

Quote:

Actually, most of those things matter for TA characters. Mobility (and tools to limit the opposition's mobility) is very important in TA, versatility is important in-so-much as you want character builds that can adapt to situations to put shutdown or pressure in key places, and self sufficiency in terms of self condition removal is also very strong to have on melee and rangers in TA. The only main difference between strong GvG skirmish templates and strong TA templates is the lack of a self heal.

No, you're confusing mobility (in the sense that it applies to GvG) with kiting and kite prevention. A TA character never has to outright escape from a fight, or prevent outright escape. That's why from a TA perspective you have better options (like hammer KDs and grasping earth). There are better pressure options than bulls charge, better anti-kite options, but there are few things better for preventing outright escape, and it's a speed stance and offensive tool rolled into one, which is great on a character whose already hurting for free skill slots.

I agree with what you said about versatility in general, but GvG requires a different sort of versatility than TA, and self heals are a consequence of that difference, but not the only consequence. The ability to function in a variety of combinations with your teammates, and the ability to immediately inflict harm without needing to charge adrenaline are both important. A dragon slasher is never going to be an effective split character for this reason, and most hammer builds are either going to require significant adrenaline building, or end up blowing their load way too fast to function in a skirmish.

Quote:

A warrior with an elite hammer knockdown and bull's strike generates far more knockdowns than a bull's charge warrior can. An axe warrior with bull's strike and shock can generate about the same number of knockdowns as a bull's charge warrior. The difference being that these templates have elites that are more useful toward getting kills in more situations.

In my experience this just isn't true. As far as which skills are more "useful," like I said, bull's charge has two uses rolled into one, speed boost and offensive tool, and these types of skills that free up your bar are a perfect match for gvg characters.

Neo-LD · Mar 10, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineShadows

The last time I've designed a build for GvG, HA, or TA and wanted a bull's charge warrior over dragon slash, eviscerate, dev hammer, backbreaker, earthshaker, or shadow prison was .... well, never. The last time I've actually cared that someone on the opposing team was running bull's charge was either late August or early September.

I usually find what you post to be quite informed and on the ball, Divine, but I have to disagree strongly here, and take the opposite stance: Bulls Charge is present on most modern balanced gvg teams, and there is a reason for that: It is current gold standard of Sword Elites.

The reason why is its versatility: it does what none of the other elites in your list can. If we build a warrior from the ground up, we have to consider his goals and objectives. The most common setup is to have two warriors, one of which is built for full-time stand presence (and thus can be less self-reliant) and one of which is flexible, able to contribute both at the stand and split at will. The stand warrior is most often best rolled as a hammer. So the question becomes what should the second warrior be?

Well, his goals include splitting, so that knocks Backbreaker, Devastating, Earthshaker, Shadow Prison, and Dragon Slash off of your list of supposed better elites. That leaves just Eviscerate, which I suppose could form a somewhat comprible bar with something like Evi/Exe/Bulls/HealSig/Frenzy/Sprint/Mending Touch/ResSig. Still, this bar is fraught with inefficiencies compared to the Bulls Charge sword.

1) Evi/Exe is not that much better than Gash/Final. In fact, its worse in most relevent cases

2) It takes two skill slots and 10e to do with Sprint/BullsStrike what Bulls Charge does in one skill and 5.

3) No Bleed, which is important in many cases.

4) No Bulls Charge wild card. There are several strong plays that are pretty much only doable with BC, Flag Stalling and scoring extra kills off of team wipes being chief among them.

5) Most importantly, though, is the difference between how the real game plays out and how strong things appear on paper. Sure it seems like Bulls Strike gives you just about as many KDs as BC over time. But does that really matter? The ability to get multiple KDs in a row, the ability to completely deny movement for 9 seconds at a time, THAT is what scores kills. Its like the Cleave v Eviscerate argument from a year and a half ago. Cleave had better dps on paper, but screw paper: Eviscerate killed things. Thats what the situation is here with Bulls Charge.

One last thing: Im not sure that I agree with the rule that all things strong in skirmish are strong in TA... but in either case, theres nothing wrong with Bulls Charge in TA! Rob, a couple other SoF guys and myself dominated last night with it in the build, although that had more to do with us just being generally awesome than having anything to do with the skills we picked.

But that said, rethinking the build we used (if you can call it a build), I cant really think of anything I would have rather had than a BC sword.

Greedy Gus · Mar 10, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Every time in the last couple of months an opponent has run Bull's Charge against me, I had not noticed that he had Bull's Charge and it had to be pointed out later. That's not a good sign for the strength of the skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

The last time I've designed a build for GvG, HA, or TA and wanted a bull's charge warrior over dragon slash, eviscerate, dev hammer, backbreaker, earthshaker, or shadow prison was .... well, never. The last time I've actually cared that someone on the opposing team was running bull's charge was either late August or early September. I called it over vent so that the person on my GvG team playing the air ele was aware of it and left it at that and my team won the match.

Not sure if you're just parroting Ensign here, but this is one time where I think you're both on the wrong track.

Bulls charge in itself isn't a hugely strong skill that is your bar, like some other elites end up being. However, the true strength of the skill is how it effects your skillslot efficiency. It functions as elite movement control (slightly worse than YAA, though not with mending touch so meta-relevant), your frenzy cancel (slightly worse than rush), your run buff (slightly worse than charge), and your knock down (slightly worse than bulls strike, situationally).

So why is it still a strong skill when there are so many alternatives? Because it functions as all of those rolled up into one. It allows room to still run 3 strong attack skills (sever/gash/final), your IAS, and a res sig, with 2 slots left over allowing you to be a strong split character (healsig, condition removal). The skill is strong the same way eviscerate is strong, it allows you more room on your bar to pack full of awesome utility skills that warrior bars really want.

Zuranthium · Mar 11, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Bull's Charge has the speed boost and the snare in one. which gives you plenty of room for 3 attack skills (sever, gash, final) and room for a res, ias, condition removal, and a heal (making a pretty goddamn good split warrior) - so you have condition spreading, and a powerful spike in gash and final - and although the while moving knockdowns don't do what dragonslash do it is still significant pressure.

I don't think the bar you list is realistic. I wouldn't ever run Frenzy these days without a reliable cancel stance.

~Z

Royale · Mar 11, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Saying that you refuse to run frenzy without a reliable cancel stance leads me to believe you're not a great warrior sorry.

Also, anyone saying that Bull's Charge just isn't worth it's salt need to realize that knockdowns are the signle most efficient shutdown in the game. They offer a snare, and your target is on his/her ass for 3 seconds not able to cast or attack (barring stances). With Bull's Charge they aren't going anwhere or doing anything which is what makes it so awesome in a skirmish situation.

At the stand you can sometimes afford to stand still and get beat on for 10 seconds since you have others around you who can heal up the damage. In a split/skirmish situation, normally you're on your own and cannot just stand there and wait for the BC war to burn out his stance before kiting cause you'll be dead. You have to run away, and when you do, this is where Bull's Charge will have it's way with you.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 11, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royale

Saying that you refuse to run frenzy without a reliable cancel stance leads me to believe you're not a great warrior sorry.

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royale

At the stand you can sometimes afford to stand still and get beat on for 10 seconds since you have others around you who can heal up the damage.

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royale

In a split/skirmish situation, normally you're on your own and cannot just stand there and wait for the BC war to burn out his stance before kiting cause you'll be dead. You have to run away, and when you do, this is where Bull's Charge will have it's way with you.

Bull's Charge can be really effective in split, but it depends on the kind of offense you're facing. The 'ends when you use a skill' can be crippling, since you often want to remove your own conditions in a skirmish. Once you get blinded or crippled you often have to end your Bull's Charge to pull the condition, at once point you lose effectiveness.

I'd still take it over Dragon Slash though.

Royale · Mar 11, 2007, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Squidget apologies but running a Bull's Charge bar tends to leave you without a cancel stance often. You'll find that a lot of kills from this bars occur right after BC has ended because (for the most part) you've achieved your string of knockdowns, and your adrenailne is built up enough for you to unload. Using frenzy after a good BC chain works very well most of the time.

Obviously there's times when you get stuck in frenzy, and that sucks, but being able to get a solid unload on a knocked-down target will having a higher chance for success than on a target who can just kite away.

And refusing to run frenzy just because your other stance doesn't have a quick cool down is paranoid. Decent players will realize when it's safe to frenzy and when it's not so safe (even though you may need to frenzy in a not-so-safe situation). To get the most out of some builds you can't afford to have a cancel stance ready 24/7.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 11, 2007, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Bull's Charge qualifies as a reliable cancel stance. It's not Rush, but if you play carefully there's no reason you should get caught in Frenzy often with Bull's Charge on your bar.

That's quite different from saying that it's okay to run Frenzy without any cancel stance at all, which is what I read in your post. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Zuranthium · Mar 11, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royale

You'll find that a lot of kills from this bars occur right after BC has ended because (for the most part) you've achieved your string of knockdowns, and your adrenailne is built up enough for you to unload. Using frenzy after a good BC chain works very well most of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Bull's Charge qualifies as a reliable cancel stance. It's not Rush, but if you play carefully there's no reason you should get caught in Frenzy often with Bull's Charge on your bar.

Physically impossible.

~Z

yesitsrob · Mar 11, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't think the bar you list is realistic. I wouldn't ever run Frenzy these days without a reliable cancel stance.

~Z

The bar is actually very realistic. Yes, in fairness, it's not a rarity to get caught in Frenzy (since as is said - after the bull's charge has ended chances are you'll want to unleash in frenzy) - where as you'll struggle to punish someone with Rush or Dash on their bar.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 11, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Physically impossible.

~Z

Yet very effective

~T

Zuranthium · Mar 12, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Thomas, if you steal my trademark I will NINJAAAAAAAAAA you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Yes, in fairness, it's not a rarity to get caught in Frenzy (since as is said - after the bull's charge has ended chances are you'll want to unleash in frenzy) - where as you'll struggle to punish someone with Rush or Dash on their bar.

Yes, well, that's the limitation the skill has.

I think there are better options for a splittable character. If the skill said "this ends when you use an attack skill", I'd see the usefulness for that kind of role. But even then, I guess it just doesn't fit with the builds I make?

~Z

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 12, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

I don't see why chaining Bull's Charge into Frenzy is a good play. After getting hit by a Bull's Charge guy, the first thought on anyone's mind is to move away as soon as the Bull's Charge ends. Once you hit Frenzy and start unleashing adrenal attacks they'll be kiting immediately, and since you're stuck in Frenzy you won't be able to give chase and finish your 3-hit combo.. The end result is you, stuck in Frenzy, with half an adrenal combo left. That's a terrible play, especially in the meta of telespiking where you can never be sure your Frenzy will go unpunished.

You're much better off saving your Frenzy until you see a good opportunity to use it. Spread bleeding around a couple targets, then suddely Gash + Final someone who isn't expecting it. Wait until the other warrior KDs something and unload on it. The only time Bull's Charge into Frenzy starts to look remotely good is when you KDed the target just before Bull's Charge ends, the target is low enough that you might kill them, and the enemy team doesn't have the tools to punish you. That situation doesn't happen often against good players.

On the original debate...

The reason I'd take Bull's Charge isn't that I get to beat on you for 10 seconds. I'd take Bull's Charge because it makes you immobile for 10 seconds while my team beats your face in. As you add more and more physicals to your team (warriors, dervishes, and paragons), Bull's Charge looks better and better. You can start training one target with mass damage, then instantly switch when the target gets prot, constantly putting high DPS on targets that aren't able to kite and having your other physical characters spike at will. Bull's Charge is fine for just randomly chasing people, but when you actually want to make a push and focus your offense it starts to look really good.

Bull's Charge also has a lot of versatility attached to it. It's one of the best linebacking skills if you want to play defensively. It can snare a crucial target when the enemy is retreating. It can slow down an incoming flagger. It can keep someone from getting away in skirmish. These are all powerful plays and make your character a lot more versatile.

On Dragon Slash - I don't think it's very effective for most builds, and I hate running it. It's a great bar if you want to kill combat dummies, but the standard Prot Strike + Dragon Slash gets owned too hard by kiting for my tastes. You can unleash adrenal attacks constantly, but with no knockdown there are very few opportunities to use Frenzy or actually force kills. You end up with a character that hits a lot of people down to 80%, but never actually gets in a position to force kills.

Sometimes, running around spreading damage is the effect you want. In an SF build or a degen build, the Dragon Slasher's ability to constantly unload high-damage hits starts to look very attractive. However, it's not going to force a lot of kills in balanced and pressure builds, and it doesn't have anything like the versatility of a Bull's Charge guy.

Dragon Slash is one of those builds that would be really good if there were 9 skillslots. One or two more utility slots would make them from a decent character into a strong one. As-is, I just don't think they're worth running outside of pretty specalized builds.