Curse

Zuranthium · Mar 08, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

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Originally Posted by Divineshadows

If you think that the skill would have been balanced at a 1s cast and 106 armor ignoring damage (16) / 94 (14), then you're crazy. A 2s cast for that kind of damage would be reasonable (basically making the skill like ob-flame without the exhaustion), but some damage had to give for this skill to be not be too powerful at a one second cast. I really don't care if this skill never sees play again.

Having a 2 second casting time would be fine. The damage needed to be kept high, though, because the entire point of a low energy/long recharge skill like this one is that it's efficient. Now it's pretty much worthless.

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Originally Posted by Divineshadows

QFT. A 15 second recharge on shadow prison would be ridiculous.

Eh, I really don't think so. Read below:

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Also, the time spent attacking in between gets the assassins some crits to re-fill their energy quickly. They would not be limited by energy even if shadow prison was on a 15 second recharge.

Expose Defenses, Shadow Prison, Burst of Agression, and your 4 attacks cost 37 energy.

In 15 seconds an Assassin will naturally gain 20 energy. Factoring in criticals and zealous daggers and normal combat play (having to chase the target, getting blocked, etc.), you'd average right around 37 energy every 15 seconds. No energy left to do anything else unless you delay your combo longer.

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I think you under-value dagger auto-attacks. At 14 dagger / 13 crit daggers auto attacks fall just barely shy of sword or spear auto attacks at 14 weapon mastery. Ensign had posted some numbers on this somewhere....can't locate the post at the moment.

We'll have to get those numbers because the difference seems a bit larger. But aside from that, Warriors have a constant IAS ability in Frenzy. That's one skillslot...now give him 6 more and see what HE can do every 15 seconds. I think you're over-valuing the Shadow Prison spike in comparison. It can certainly be deadly but it has drawbacks. Elem Blinding spells, Ranger interrupts, and Divert Hexes all recharge much faster than every 15 seconds, no? That's a big difference to me. A Warrior that's under IAS needs to be constantly watched to mitigate the damage. An Assassin only needs to be watched when you know it's about time for him to spike. The trick of course is to make your opponents so busy with other things that they can't handle the Assassin solo-spike at the same time. But it's hardly infallible.

So I don't see the big deal. In my mind, it honestly NEEDS to be on a 15 second recharge to remain highly competitive. It's such a one-dimensional build; of course it's going to be really good at thing one thing and be able to do almost nothing else.

~Z

Patccmoi · Mar 09, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Having a 2 second casting time would be fine. The damage needed to be kept high, though, because the entire point of a low energy/long recharge skill like this one is that it's efficient. Now it's pretty much worthless.

Personally i wouldn't like 2s cast on Lamentation. You still need your target in earshot of spirit and in 2s they can move a lot, and all in all i'm not a fan of spike skills (i hate spike builds, can't say i'm not biased but there's enough spike skills in the game already).

I'm fine with 1s cast and the current damage, but what they need to do is buff the recharge. It's NOT spike quality anymore, at best it's an afterspike (which still requires the main spike skills to recharge). Imo it's very similar to WD with a different conditional. I'd see it at 10s recharge. 5/1/10 with its current damage would make a nice extra pressure/afterspike skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

So I don't see the big deal. In my mind, it honestly NEEDS to be on a 15 second recharge to remain highly competitive. It's such a one-dimensional build; of course it's going to be really good at thing one thing and be able to do almost nothing else.

~Z

It's ALREADY competitive. Do you see a lack of SP sins or something? They're all over the place. Yes, it's extremely one-dimensional, but what it does is also extremely efficient (it can be countered, but if it's not it's a straight kill, few other builds can do something like that). The fact that it can't do anything else doesn't mean that what it does should be broken. Honestly on 15s recharge the pressure would actually be too high imo. It still takes energy to stop those spikes, not all builds carry Blinding Surge or Divert Hexes to use it mid-combo and it shouldn't be a requirement either.

I'm not in favor of buffing mindless button-mashing builds so that they're 'more competitive', especially not when they're already seeing lots of play. Imo mindless button-mashing builds should be nerfed so that they're actually not highly competitive. Many sin builds that require more of a brain are very good, they're just not seeing much play because SP is sooo easy to play yet actually good. Reducing SP's recharge to 15s would just insure that SP sin is the only sin build you'll ever see cause then not much else could actually compete with that efficiency in killing.

Hyunsai · Mar 09, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

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Originally Posted by Lodurr

I don't think it's balanced when every sin you see in obs uses the same attack chain. The hex requirement for the Black strikes is supposed to be a drawback. GPS got a big nerf when all you saw was AoD->GPS->HotO->FS->TF. The Black strikes need a similar nerf because of pre-chain hexing with SP.

Again, if SP is the problem, solve the SP problem, not the Black line, as I'm still waiting the imbalanced builds using the Black line without Shadow prison.

I Teh Mighty Warrior I · Mar 09, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Finally a decent skill update, glad to see Izzy might actually have some common sense. Now if only this was done a week after the last skill update...

Zuranthium · Mar 09, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

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Originally Posted by Patccmoi

It's ALREADY competitive. Do you see a lack of SP sins or something? They're all over the place.

No, I don't see a lack of Assassins. I DO see a lack of good Assassin builds, which is one of the reasons we are seeing so many Burst/Prison Sins (the other reason being that it's an easy build to use which destroys bad and average players). And I do think the build is not quite first-tier. Hence, why I say a 15 second recharge.

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Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Honestly on 15s recharge the pressure would actually be too high imo. It still takes energy to stop those spikes, not all builds carry Blinding Surge or Divert Hexes to use it mid-combo and it shouldn't be a requirement either.

I'm 99.9% sure that a Dragon Slash Warrior can apply more pressure than a theoretical 15-second Burst/Prison Sin could. Plus they are less squishy at the same time. The tradeoff is that the Assassin has the element of surprise.

Divert Hexes and B-Surge cost 10 energy. There are plenty of other options that can deal with a Burst Spike for that same amount - Gift of Health + RC. Spirit Light + Mend Body and Soul. ZB + (take your pick since you just healed half of the damage from the spike at no cost). Gale. Blackout or Shield Bash if you're the one being spiked. Expel Hexes. (plus Ranger interrupts, which I already mentioned but you didn't talk about). If they aren't running Expose Defenses, or if it got Diverted or some such, a TON of other options open up as well.

Burst Sins just don't scare me that much?

~Z

Lodurr · Mar 09, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

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Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Again, if SP is the problem, solve the SP problem, not the Black line, as I'm still waiting the imbalanced builds using the Black line without Shadow prison.

Should SP cripple the target instead of hex?

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I'm 99.9% sure that a Dragon Slash Warrior can apply more pressure than a theoretical 15-second Burst/Prison Sin could. Plus they are less squishy at the same time. The tradeoff is that the Assassin has the element of surprise.

The D Slash is squishier if you're assuming he's in Frenzy the whole time.

If you're saying that SP/BoA sins aren't overpowered and overused right now, I just don't know what to say. I think they clearly are. There needs to be a reason for assassins in GvG to run something other than those 6 skills. Right now there isn't. It's the quickest spike and probably also the highest damage over time any sin can do.

Lord Natural · Mar 09, 2007, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Just like every balance, I was hoping to see the sin, rit, derv, and para deleted from the game. But since that seems unlikely at this point, I guess nerfing the rit spike will have to do. SP seems to be as overused as ever post-balance, though.

I remember when skill balances were for shaking up the metagame, not about fixing badly broken skills :/. Oh well. GJ Izzy, with everything except SP.

Patccmoi · Mar 09, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

No, I don't see a lack of Assassins. I DO see a lack of good Assassin builds, which is one of the reasons we are seeing so many Burst/Prison Sins (the other reason being that it's an easy build to use which destroys bad and average players). And I do think the build is not quite first-tier. Hence, why I say a 15 second recharge.

Maybe the build is not quite first-tier (personally i think it is, but w/e) because it is sooo single-minded? What other build with no kind of utility is actually first tier? Even Searing Flames and Thumpers have more utility and require more skill to play than that.

And there is actually Moebius sins build being used. Saw a couple of them in high ranked guilds and we're using 2 atm, it's very very high pressure (much higher than a war can do overall when it comes to raw damage) at the cost of being squishier, but you can build your team setup around that (add WY! somewhere for example, then your sins have armor similar to hammer wars which isn't that squishy). And you can fit good utility on a Moebius sin, which is impossible on SPs...

Zuranthium · Mar 09, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

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Originally Posted by Lodurr

The D Slash is squishier if you're assuming he's in Frenzy the whole time.

If you're saying that SP/BoA sins aren't overpowered and overused right now, I just don't know what to say. I think they clearly are. There needs to be a reason for assassins in GvG to run something other than those 6 skills. Right now there isn't. It's the quickest spike and probably also the highest damage over time any sin can do.

Actually, a D-slash in Frenzy still takes less damage than an Assassin. Because of having higher armor (remember the Shield), Frenzy makes a D-slash's armor level just about equal to that of an Assassin, BUT the Warrior has a Rune of Superior Absorption so he's still taking a bit less melee damage. He would take more damage from things such as Obs Flame and Lamentation but remember that he can switch stances into RUSH at any time he wants.

And, yes, I most definitely AM saying SP/BoA Sins aren't overpowered. Overused, sure, but it's not my fault that Mobius Strike is currently the only other Assassin build that's worth using. Beguiling Haze is almost great, but I feel it should cost 10 energy. Shattering Assault and Assault Enchantments look quite nice but then you remember that Jagged Strike + Wild Strike is currently the only way to create a spammable attack chain and make those Elites fully realized. Shroud of Silence could be really nice if Dark Prison was also on a 30 second recharge. Everything else just plain sucks.

~Z

yesitsrob · Mar 09, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

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BUT the Warrior has a Rune of Superior Absorption

Can't speak for everyone, but i know I don't, who the hell hits a warrior with physical damage? Cept maybe something using orders like a ranger spike. Sup Absorbtion is useless. Vitae is much better.

On topic: SP should remain at 20 seconds - hard to predict (pre-prot) spikes every 20 seconds are most certainly frequent enough.

Zuranthium · Mar 09, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

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Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Can't speak for everyone, but i know I don't, who the hell hits a warrior with physical damage? Cept maybe something using orders like a ranger spike. Sup Absorbtion is useless.

Archers, footmen, and knights. A linebacker. An Assassin trying to get a kill on an overextended Warrior. Any physical damager dealer in a split. Any physical damage dealer that's trying to stop a Warrior from running the flag in.

"Absorbtion" is not a word, btw.

~Z

Thomas.knbk · Mar 09, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

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Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Again, if SP is the problem, solve the SP problem, not the Black line, as I'm still waiting the imbalanced builds using the Black line without Shadow prison.

Give me an overpowered build that uses Shadow Prison but doesn't use the black offhands please. The SP axe spiker doesn't count. That's only overpowered in combination with the mesmer spike assists and those have been nerfed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

No, I don't see a lack of Assassins. I DO see a lack of good Assassin builds, which is one of the reasons we are seeing so many Burst/Prison Sins (the other reason being that it's an easy build to use which destroys bad and average players). And I do think the build is not quite first-tier. Hence, why I say a 15 second recharge.

So you only see one assassin build, the Shadow Prison sin, and in order to solve that you want to buff Shadow Prison to a 15 second recharge? wtf?

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Divert Hexes and B-Surge cost 10 energy. There are plenty of other options that can deal with a Burst Spike for that same amount - Gift of Health + RC. Spirit Light + Mend Body and Soul. ZB + (take your pick since you just healed half of the damage from the spike at no cost). Gale. Blackout or Shield Bash if you're the one being spiked. Expel Hexes. (plus Ranger interrupts, which I already mentioned but you didn't talk about). If they aren't running Expose Defenses, or if it got Diverted or some such, a TON of other options open up as well.

Please, listing counters as an argument is lame and pointless.
If I had a skill with a 2 sec cast time on a 1 second recharge that did 99999 armor ignoring damage would it not be overpowered because Distracting Shot and Protective Spirit would counter it?
If I had a skill that did a radar range 1/4 sec cast wipe (Signet of Ownage), and there would be another skill that would make that skill fail for the rest of the game, would Signet of Ownage not be overpowered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

BUT the Warrior has a Rune of Superior Absorption

Just wow. Superior Absorption is so bad, there's absolutely no reason to take it. It's outclassed by other options so bad, it's not even funny.
Shadow Prison should definitely stay on a 20 second recharge, if not higher. It's a 1/4 sec cast, and therefore very unpredictable. It's also a very strong spike that can almost take out a squishie in one chain. To endure that as a monk every 20 seconds is more than enough.
I would personally like Shadow Prison on a 1 sec cast to partly take out the surprise, making it easier to preprot the target. IMO that would make it way more in line with non-SP melee options.

Barbie goes guru · Mar 09, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Archers, footmen, and knights. A linebacker. An Assassin trying to get a kill on an overextended Warrior. Any physical damager dealer in a split. Any physical damage dealer that's trying to stop a Warrior from running the flag in.

"Absorbtion" is not a word, btw.

~Z

Warrior Runes: Weapon mastery, tactics, strength, vigor, clarity.

Humans will not attack a warrior with physical damage, thats why there are elemental mods. The only rune you might possibly drop is tactics, but no tactics means you prob dont have a self heal and arent ganking.

Divineshadows · Mar 09, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

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Originally Posted by Barbie goes guru

Warrior Runes: Weapon mastery, tactics, strength, vigor, clarity.

Humans will not attack a warrior with physical damage, thats why there are elemental mods. The only rune you might possibly drop is tactics, but no tactics means you prob dont have a self heal and arent ganking.

Minor strength runes generally suck too unless it helps you hit a breakpoint on enraging charge or something. Vitae is almost always better.

On the topic of hitting warriors while in frenzy ... every attack skills +XX damage is armor ignoring and hurts big-time on a warrior in frenzy. SP sins are actually quite good at catching the less skilled warriors in frenzy and blowing them up (even the more experienced warrior players can get blown up if their swap stance is on a 20 second recharge and has been recently used).

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Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Just like every balance, I was hoping to see the sin, rit, derv, and para deleted from the game.

Now that is funny. Sounds like you and blame the monks are of the same mind on this one. I think that this feeling comes from the historically extreme difficulty A-net seems to have with balancing the new classes they've introduced to the game.

Symbol · Mar 09, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

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Actually, a D-slash in Frenzy still takes less damage than an Assassin. Because of having higher armor (remember the Shield), Frenzy makes a D-slash's armor level just about equal to that of an Assassin, BUT the Warrior has a Rune of Superior Absorption so he's still taking a bit less melee damage. He would take more damage from things such as Obs Flame and Lamentation but remember that he can switch stances into RUSH at any time he wants.

What? No-this is just wrong. Sins have 70 AL base, and the sin specific insignias add +10 vs physical. Warriors have 80 AL + 20 vs physical. A shield adds +16. Even in the best case (vs physical damage) a frenzying warrior is squishier than a sin.

yesitsrob · Mar 09, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

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"Absor[b]tion" is not a word, btw.

Absorption, A-B-S-O-R-P-T-I-O-N, Absorption

And yes minor strength a lot of the time is pretty pointless too.

And yeah - when running a Bull's Charge for instance, some bad timing and you can be screwed in frenzy for a while >_>.

So yeah, I can't spell absorption.

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Archers, footmen, and knights. A linebacker. An Assassin trying to get a kill on an overextended Warrior. Any physical damager dealer in a split. Any physical damage dealer that's trying to stop a Warrior from running the flag in.

The ones in bold you were correct about. The others you were very wrong. Unless they are too stupid to weapon swap thus lowering your armor level against them by 20 (with the exception of using sentinels, which is kind of rare)

Zuranthium · Mar 09, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

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Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

So you only see one assassin build, the Shadow Prison sin, and in order to solve that you want to buff Shadow Prison to a 15 second recharge? wtf?

No, I want OTHER Assassin builds to be brought to this level. People wouldn't be using this one thing as much if the Assassin class as a whole actually had strong options. The Shadow Prison build might always be really popular because of how easy it is to use and how effective it is against not-great players, but you can't want something to be nerfed just because it is popular. For top level GvG, it should simply be yet another possibility to think about when creating your team build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Please, listing counters as an argument is lame and pointless.
If I had a skill with a 2 sec cast time on a 1 second recharge that did 99999 armor ignoring damage would it not be overpowered because Distracting Shot and Protective Spirit would counter it?
If I had a skill that did a radar range 1/4 sec cast wipe (Signet of Ownage), and there would be another skill that would make that skill fail for the rest of the game, would Signet of Ownage not be overpowered?

The problem with what you're saying is that there are DOZENS of counters to a Shadow Prison Sin, not just 1 or 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Just wow. Superior Absorption is so bad, there's absolutely no reason to take it. It's outclassed by other options so bad, it's not even funny.

I was going to say that I really don't think +5 health or +1 energy is better than having Absorption in most cases, but I remembered incorrectly where this thing was located. I thought it was in the same set as the Stonefist rune (inscription, whatever). Even so, the basic point was that Warrior armor is clearly far better than that of an Assassin.

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Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Shadow Prison should definitely stay on a 20 second recharge, if not higher. It's a 1/4 sec cast, and therefore very unpredictable. It's also a very strong spike that can almost take out a squishie in one chain. To endure that as a monk every 20 seconds is more than enough.

Maybe it's just because I've run this build SO many times since Nightfall was released and because my team builds always seem to have multiple counters for it, but it simply doesn't scare me on a 20 second timer. I haven't observed many great guilds losing to it either. Eh.

~Z

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Originally Posted by Divineshadows

SP sins are actually quite good at catching the less skilled warriors in frenzy and blowing them up (even the more experienced warrior players can get blown up if their swap stance is on a 20 second recharge and has been recently used).

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Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Absorption, A-B-S-O-R-P-T-I-O-N, Absorption

And yes minor strength a lot of the time is pretty pointless too.

And yeah - when running a Bull's Charge for instance, some bad timing and you can be screwed in frenzy for a while >_>.

Bull's Charge sucks, EWWW. In any case, I've NEVER run Frenzy with only a 20 second cancel stance to back it up. That's silly. It might have been fine at times during the Prophecies-only days, but we are far past that.

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The ones in bold you were correct about. The others you were very wrong. Unless they are too stupid to weapon swap thus lowering your armor level against them by 20 (with the exception of using sentinels, which is kind of rare)

But even in swapping to an Elemental weapon, they are not getting the exact effect of "negative 20 AL" because it means they are no longer using their Vamp, Sundering, or Zealous mods. Attacking a Warrior with an AL of 96 is much different than attacking an Assassin with an AL of 70 plus the effects of whatever non-elemental weapon mod you're using.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

What? No-this is just wrong. Sins have 70 AL base, and the sin specific insignias add +10 vs physical. Warriors have 80 AL + 20 vs physical. A shield adds +16. Even in the best case (vs physical damage) a frenzying warrior is squishier than a sin.

Ummmm, a Warrior with 116 AL takes slightly less than half the damage as an Assassin with 70 AL. Frenzy doubles that damage. (1/2) * (2) = 1. But, again, a Frenzying Warrior should never be stuck in frenzy (unless they get hit without Blackout).

~Z

vapor311 · Mar 09, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

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Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Again, if SP is the problem, solve the SP problem, not the Black line, as I'm still waiting the imbalanced builds using the Black line without Shadow prison.

SP currently has the same energy cost, and recharge as Shadow Meld and Aura of Displacement. While SM and AoD allow the assassin to get in and out quickly, SM snares the target. A balanced trade off except for the fact SP opens the target up to being hit by the two lead-skipping off-hands. We would be having the same discussion if there was another enchantment based off-hand similar to Golden Phoenix Strike.

There are other assassin elites which have promise, but people are sheep and for the most part will stick to what they know until proven otherwise.

Symbol · Mar 09, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

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Ummmm, a Warrior with 116 AL takes slightly less than half the damage as an Assassin with 70 AL. Frenzy doubles that damage. (1/2) * (2) = 1. But, again, a Frenzying Warrior should never be stuck in frenzy (unless they get hit without Blackout).

No. Sins will usually have 80 AL vs physical, not 70. Frenzy is equivalent to -40 AL for damage affected by armor without AP. 116-40 = 76 < 80.

Look, you're just wrong. Frenzying warriors are substantially squishier than sins overall. It's close only when you compare physical damage (which only matters vs NPCs, since players will switch to an elemental set when targetting warriors) and the warrior is using a shield. Everywhere else it isn't even a contest.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 09, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Bull's Charge sucks

We talkin 'bout the same guild wars? Bull's Charge is an amazing skill that's especially strong on a skirmish character.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

But even in swapping to an Elemental weapon, they are not getting the exact effect of "negative 20 AL" because it means they are no longer using their Vamp, Sundering, or Zealous mods. Attacking a Warrior with an AL of 96 is much different than attacking an Assassin with an AL of 70 plus the effects of whatever non-elemental weapon mod you're using.

The extra damage from the -20 armor is way bigger than the benefit from vamp/zealous/sundering, and is in fact so big that you can forget about vamp/sundering/zealous benefits if you compare them.
Point is, Sins are a lot less squishier than you think and warriors a lot more, especially when frenzying. Don't forget armor ignoring damage is doubled too, and there's a lot of armor ignoring damage flying around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

No, I want OTHER Assassin builds to be brought to this level. People wouldn't be using this one thing as much if the Assassin class as a whole actually had strong options. The Shadow Prison build might always be really popular because of how easy it is to use and how effective it is against not-great players, but you can't want something to be nerfed just because it is popular. For top level GvG, it should simply be yet another possibility to think about when creating your team build.

It might be me, but it still sounds to me like you want to buff Shadow Prison, while Shadow Prison is the only/one of the few sin builds that's actually being played. Your idea that Shadow Steps should drain adrenaline was nice, but 15 sec recharge....just no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I've NEVER run Frenzy with only a 20 second cancel stance to back it up. That's silly. It might have been fine at times during the Prophecies-only days, but we are far past that.

You only have 8 skill slots. Sometimes you want to have another secondary than /A (dash) or /D (pious haste) for whatever reason (shock, mending touch, whatever), so a lot of people do take Sprint as a cancel. It's your responsibility to make sure you're not caught in Frenzy without a cancel, but the scenario is not as unrealistic as you think.

Seriously though, why a 15 sec recharge on Shadow Prison? Because they don't scare you? Lemme tell you, they do scare me, and a lot of other people too. They're the strongest single character spike in the game and I think the longest recharge of all solo spikers (as far as you can consider any other character a solo spiker: the SP sin is the only one that can actually solo spike down a targer reliably) is not more than appropriate. On a 15 sec recharge, they would not only have a strong spike, they would also be able to repeat it so quickly that enemy monks will be outpressured by the spikes if they try to save them all. While I like pressure builds, I think the combination of that is a bit too much.
Please rethink it. It's really out of proportion with the rest of the game.