Curse

Riotgear · Mar 08, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Good patch, though SP needs more than just an increase to 10e.

Iotan · Mar 08, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Assassins are still going to be the same cookie-cutter build as long as both "Black" strikes are as good as they are. Allowing an assassin combo to get 2 Dual attacks in that quickly is going to be overpowered no matter what they do with SP. I welcome the nerf to SP and would be just fine if it were removed from the game, but assassins will still be as imba as always.

Hyunsai · Mar 08, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Well, it seems that there are no more Burst Prison sins in HoH and in GVG since this update (or so few, so few...), and a lot of observers were saying that in fact the 10e is hurting, especially when using a second hex, like Pat said.

So we'll see, but I think that this little nerf reached his goal. It proves anyway that outside Burst Prison build, there is no problem with the Black line or Burst of Agression. I was a bit tired to hear people use the Shadow prison problem as an excuse to ask nerf of BoA or Off-Hands when those are in fact balanced. I have yet to hear the build I asked for a moment: The imbalance build using off hands and BoA, but without Shadow Prison.

I still say that some work must be done on the Golden line and some other dagger skills recharge.

Morganas · Mar 08, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

The 10e doesn't nerf burst sins in gank situations at all, just at the flagstand. That's ok though, at least now there's a bigger tradeoff in versatility when you take SP BoA sins with your team.

Patccmoi · Mar 08, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Well, it seems that there are no more Burst Prison sins in HoH and in GVG since this update (or so few, so few...), and a lot of observers were saying that in fact the 10e is hurting, especially when using a second hex, like Pat said.

So we'll see, but I think that this little nerf reached his goal. It proves anyway that outside Burst Prison build, there is no problem with the Black line or Burst of Agression. I was a bit tired to hear people use the Shadow prison problem as an excuse to ask nerf of BoA or Off-Hands when those are in fact balanced. I have yet to hear the build I asked for a moment: The imbalance build using off hands and BoA, but without Shadow Prison.

I still say that some work must be done on the Golden line and some other dagger skills recharge.

Actually, i played tonight and faced just as much burst sins as i did before in HA (which means maybe 2/3 teams having at least one). They didn't seem hurt by the change at all in the end and they still kill as easily, they just maybe wait 1s more before comboing, i dunno... but i was still getting hit by Expose-SP-combo in BoA so i guess the nerf isn't actually enough.

I even faced an Euro spike in GvG with 2 SP W/As and they didn't seem to have any problem with energy, so honestly i don't think the nerf to BoA changed anything much at all, the skill is as crazy as before all in all.

Rest of the changes seem to have nerfed the gimmicks they were used in though (well, WD didn't really kill Euro spike, but it's less of a crazy afterspike, we had more time to heal)

Thom · Mar 08, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

With the exception of Lamentation, this was an excellent reactive rebalance. Lamentations was nerfed to uselessness, but everything else seemed to be reasonably incrimental.

Overnerfing Discord leaves no one complaing; even those playing it must have found it cheap. Shadow prison is so mainstream that overnerfing it would disrupt the meta game too much. I like the nudge approach with skills like shadow prison, especially since this nudge put pressure on energy hungry assassins.

moko · Mar 08, 2007, 08:57 AM // 08:57

lovely update. just nice, really. <3

who cares if they nerfed lamentation and discord that badly..it was just needed.

the reason SP did a slight nerf wasnt boa sins as everyone seems to think - it was mainly the warriors, which was just too good for it. it got you a snare & teleport and the ability to spike right away, while on assasins, its more than just a teleport and a snare, its the requirement for the spike (removing it is still very easy), and thats why i dont see boa sins being nerfed anytime soon.

blades of steel was just silly, however. ;o

Hyunsai · Mar 08, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Actually, i played tonight and faced just as much burst sins as i did before in HA (which means maybe 2/3 teams having at least one). They didn't seem hurt by the change at all in the end and they still kill as easily, they just maybe wait 1s more before comboing, i dunno... but i was still getting hit by Expose-SP-combo in BoA so i guess the nerf isn't actually enough.

I even faced an Euro spike in GvG with 2 SP W/As and they didn't seem to have any problem with energy, so honestly i don't think the nerf to BoA changed anything much at all, the skill is as crazy as before all in all.

Rest of the changes seem to have nerfed the gimmicks they were used in though (well, WD didn't really kill Euro spike, but it's less of a crazy afterspike, we had more time to heal)

Well, ok then. Last night I was seeing more thumpers, but I should have watched more matches (This morning I m seeing them in HoH), but whatever. For the W/A, I don't think that it will change much anyway.

You're talking of a nerf of BoA, I m assuming it's a mistake, heeh.

Anyway, I m staying on my position: "I have yet to hear the build I asked for a moment: The imbalance build using off-hands and BoA, but without Shadow Prison."

HolyHawk · Mar 08, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

SP for eurospike is still pretty much the same, it's not like they use that much energy. And sins still have black lotus to manage they combo energy pool. I was probably crying in the riverside inn thread, but jade isle need a nerf, or be removed for good. It's probably the only map that that cripple tactics a gvg match can have.

Zuranthium · Mar 08, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Shadow Prison? Just wait your energy pool to have 10+ energy?

I think you mean 25.

10 for Prison, 5 for Burst, 10 for Black Lotus.

It's not too big of a hit to Burst Sins but I do feel they should be able to pull off the combo every 15 seconds rather than every 20 considering they are spending 100% of their energy to do so and can do nothing but attack with non-IAS Daggers the remainder of the time.

~Z

Farin · Mar 08, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I think you mean 25.

10 for Prison, 5 for Burst, 10 for Black Lotus.

It's not too big of a hit to Burst Sins but I do feel they should be able to pull off the combo every 15 seconds rather than every 20 considering they are spending 100% of their energy to do so and can do nothing but attack with non-IAS Daggers the remainder of the time.

~Z

They are also full on energy by the time the combo ends or shortly after. Reducing SP's recharge time would be pretty stupid, sorry. We're trying to make the skill Not-so-good here, not better.

The Real Roy Keane · Mar 08, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10127588

Some skill balances and the "oh so badly needed" Hero Battle update! No word on HA not even a slight post from a rep in the HA section... So great to be ignored.

Every little helps.

Divineshadows · Mar 08, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Lamentation was over-nerfed. The casting time definitely needed to be increased but the damage hit is silly. Now it's not efficient enough to be worth bringing ever. *sigh*

If you think that the skill would have been balanced at a 1s cast and 106 armor ignoring damage (16) / 94 (14), then you're crazy. A 2s cast for that kind of damage would be reasonable (basically making the skill like ob-flame without the exhaustion), but some damage had to give for this skill to be not be too powerful at a one second cast. I really don't care if this skill never sees play again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

They are also full on energy by the time the combo ends or shortly after. Reducing SP's recharge time would be pretty stupid, sorry. We're trying to make the skill Not-so-good here, not better.

QFT. A 15 second recharge on shadow prison would be ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It's not too big of a hit to Burst Sins but I do feel they should be able to pull off the combo every 15 seconds rather than every 20 considering they are spending 100% of their energy to do so and can do nothing but attack with non-IAS Daggers the remainder of the time.

I think you under-value dagger auto-attacks. At 14 dagger / 13 crit daggers auto attacks fall just barely shy of sword or spear auto attacks at 14 weapon mastery. Ensign had posted some numbers on this somewhere....can't locate the post at the moment.

Also, the time spent attacking in between gets the assassins some crits to re-fill their energy quickly. They would not be limited by energy even if shadow prison was on a 15 second recharge.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 08, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I think you mean 25.

10 for Prison, 5 for Burst, 10 for Black Lotus.

It's not too big of a hit to Burst Sins
~Z

When was the last time you played a burst sin in a gvg using 25e?
Before the update you really needed 30e to even land hits, now its 35e. With all the aegis/sod around you need to use expose while fighting 8v8, and maybe you could get away with just using sp on the split, gl droping a ranger though.
10e(sp)10e(expose)5e(burst)10e(black) 35e=gg

Patccmoi · Mar 08, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

When was the last time you played a burst sin in a gvg using 25e?
Before the update you really needed 30e to even land hits, now its 35e. With all the aegis/sod around you need to use expose while fighting 8v8, and maybe you could get away with just using sp on the split, gl droping a ranger though.
10e(sp)10e(expose)5e(burst)10e(black) 35e=gg

You're fine with 30-32. Your energy regens while you do all this stuff... 1.75s for Expose, 1s for SP (including the aftercasts) gives you about 4E back just through natural regen...

remmeh · Mar 08, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

1s for SP (including the aftercasts)

no aftercast on shadow steps

and you could always activate Burst after Black Lotus, meaning you'd only need Expose + SP + Black Lotus which is 30 energy, and you'll regen a few energy during the cast sequence.

romO · Mar 08, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

I was probably crying in the riverside inn thread, but jade isle need a nerf, or be removed for good. It's probably the only map that that cripple tactics a gvg match can have.

Corrupted Isle. Splitting 4 dummies.

Farin · Mar 08, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

Corrupted Isle. Splitting 4 dummies.

And even then some people still get collapsed 8v4. So sad.

/Prophecies Rollback imo.

Lodurr · Mar 08, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

It proves anyway that outside Burst Prison build, there is no problem with the Black line or Burst of Agression. I was a bit tired to hear people use the Shadow prison problem as an excuse to ask nerf of BoA or Off-Hands when those are in fact balanced.

I don't think it's balanced when every sin you see in obs uses the same attack chain. The hex requirement for the Black strikes is supposed to be a drawback. GPS got a big nerf when all you saw was AoD->GPS->HotO->FS->TF. The Black strikes need a similar nerf because of pre-chain hexing with SP.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 08, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

Corrupted Isle. Splitting 4 dummies.

Also, Wurms.