Curse

The Ernada · Mar 01, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Builds such as?

Can you not read? Highly defensive builds. What part of that can't you understand? Lots of healing, defensive skills with spirits, wards, weapons etc etc. Current SP, BOA assassins allow builds to pile on a ton of these defensive skills because these assassins can unleash a highly compressed high damage in a short amount of time with just a handful of skills on their bar.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 01, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Can you not read? Highly defensive builds. What part of that can't you understand? Lots of healing, defensive skills with spirits, wards, weapons etc etc. Current SP, BOA assassins allow builds to pile on a ton of these defensive skills because these assassins can unleash a highly compressed high damage in a short amount of time with just a handful of skills on their bar.

Can't say I've come across such builds, that's why I asked, no need to get pissy.

The Ernada · Mar 01, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Can't say I've come across such builds, that's why I asked, no need to get pissy.

Sorry if I came down hard on you. It's just that you came across as sarcastic with your 3 word post.

Seamus Finn · Mar 01, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

These BoA sins arent good for ANYTHING outside of the little mini-spike. They don't apply good pressure, they aren't versatile at all. They are doing what they are meant to.

This is my biggest issue with assassins though. What makes it worse is the staggering amount of GW players that think it's ok for a class to be designed to just solo spike targets. BoA Sins suck because they are one of the most mindless and still effective split/stand bars in the gvg meta and they are on a class that used to be thought of as a higher learning curve class(not to say they should have, just pointing out the direction the class has moved to). Look at rits, also made by the same design team. Though still hated by a lot of people, and needing nerfs in the channeling line, have many different play options(in spite of the poor design). Every other class I can think of besides necros(who amount to lame any way you slice them), has versatility and can belong in a balanced build with many different skill bars and play strategies. Assassins currently do not. This type of bar(and to an extend the players who support it) is why.

Designing a class to autokill said target unless a monk or blindbot intervenes, even if balanced, is just a terrible class concept and should be addressed.

Patccmoi · Mar 02, 2007, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

This is my biggest issue with assassins though. What makes it worse is the staggering amount of GW players that think it's ok for a class to be designed to just solo spike targets. BoA Sins suck because they are one of the most mindless and still effective split/stand bars in the gvg meta and they are on a class that used to be thought of as a higher learning curve class(not to say they should have, just pointing out the direction the class has moved to). Look at rits, also made by the same design team. Though still hated by a lot of people, and needing nerfs in the channeling line, have many different play options(in spite of the poor design). Every other class I can think of besides necros(who amount to lame any way you slice them), has versatility and can belong in a balanced build with many different skill bars and play strategies. Assassins currently do not. This type of bar(and to an extend the players who support it) is why.

Designing a class to autokill said target unless a monk or blindbot intervenes, even if balanced, is just a terrible class concept and should be addressed.

It's not true that this is all the class can do though, it's all this BUILD can do. I fully agree that it's stupid cause it's efficient yet incredibly mindless. The thing is, Assassins still have a pretty high learning curve imo if you use anything else (and there IS some other good stuff. Moebius pressure sins for example, some of which are appearing in the meta slowly, can imo be comparable to warriors in terms of versatility in one skill bar depending how you build them and on how they have to be played in game). But SP is sooo easy to play yet actually decent (i can't say the build sucks. It's stupid, but it works) that it's just the most popular by far, people always go for the easiest thing, most anyway.

Quote:

To me, people complaining about sins are just people that don't want to get better and want everything to be easier.

Sins are doing what they are meant to do, and sometimes it can be hard to deal with and semi-frustrating. Pre-prot better/quicker and they won't touch you. Bring the blinder, do something.

These BoA sins arent good for ANYTHING outside of the little mini-spike. They don't apply good pressure, they aren't versatile at all. They are doing what they are meant to.

Sorry, but i just can't agree with that at all. People complaining about BoA sins want everything easier? SP-BoA sin is about the easiest build to play in the current meta. There's actually very little difference between a so-so BoA sin and a very good one cause they just have nothing to do! The build has no option, no versatility, it does ONE thing every 20s and the rest of the time it watches the game.

I don't care if the class is called Assassin or Ninja or Panda. A combo that straight kill a target done by 1 guy just doesn't have much place in a game like GW, which is based around team-play cause you CAN'T fit the appropriate counters on every char. I mean, you say bring a Blindbot, well what if they Diversion your blinder during the time 3 SP sins are comboing on 3 different targets? There's counters, but there's also counters to counters, and this kind of discussion never leads anywhere. I'd be fine if the combo did like 80-85% of a target's max health (say it does 450 damage on 60AL). Then you have degen and the sin can auto-attack and if the guy isn't saved or is alone, you'll kill him in a few sec. Or if anyone else in your team help you you'll kill straight. Or if the guy is DPed. But when 1 guy can straight kill in 4s, something is just wrong and it can't lead to good game play.

I don't believe sins were really meant to take down people in 1 combo in 4s. And if they were, well it's an obvious mistake, so fix it. I'd love to see Assassins being able to solo kill people in 1v1 through combos, disables, knockdowns, etc. That in 1v1, an Assassin that pulls his combo will take down their target because they're unable to fight back (think of skills like Temple Strike, that's a good example of what i like sins to do. Melee or caster is screwed, and even Mending Touch can't actually save you cause you're dazed and you won't pull it off). But it can take 6-7s to do and it's not totally brainless like clicking 1-6 in order and wait for the next 15s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

No it wouldn't, it would reintroduce Falling Spider and force Horns of the Ox or Shock back onto every bar with it. The lead/offhand/dual series is far too fragile and klunky to see serious play. The shortcuts are the skills that enable Assassins to be viable, not imbalanced mechanic breakers.

The offhands suck too. I tried making a bar with Unsuspecting Strike at one point, and the offhand I wanted to use was...Black Spider Strike, since I had a hex anyway and it is a much stronger skill than any of the offhands that need to follow a lead attack. Of course, then the question becomes 'why bother with Unsuspecting?'.

First about the Unsuspecting Strike thing... seriously this doesn't make much sense. You wanted Black Spider Strike more than Wild Strike to go along with Unsuspecting? BSS does less damage and has 3 times the recharge. Sure it poisons, but Wild Strike takes out stances which is quite useful in many situations (helpful against warriors, MoR Mesmers, Balanced Stance Monks, etc.). I mean the reason you'd want Unsuspecing is cause it's a 4s recharge lead, and in that case there's just no point going with a 12s recharge off-hand when you have a 4s recharge one. If you plan to do one big combo or spike assist then BSS is better to do a quick BSS-Dual, but to pressure you'll have much higher DPS with Unsuspecting-Wild Strike than Unsuspecting-BSS.

I disagree that the lead-offhand-dual is too fragile and klunky to see play. I think that with the current skills it is, i agree. But i think that's a flaw in the skill design, not the system. And i'm not talking about making the skills do insane +damage or have ridiculous effects that are broken, but about designing them in a way that the combos are NOT that fragile. I mean, a combo is definitely very fragile when it has a 10s recharge and screwing any part ends it. But when you play Moebius-DB for example, both skills have 2s recharge. If it's blocked, you don't care, your combo is not 'screwed'. You just wait 2s and use the same skill again. I think that THIS is what the lead-offhand-dual should be like. Low recharge skills that allow for PRESSURE combos. Combos that won't straight kill but that you can do over and over, and if a part is screwed you just wait a few sec and use the skill again. I'll write a thread in the skill discussion section about what i think lead/offhands should be changed to for the lead-offhand-dual system to work. I don't think the system is a problem, i think it could work very well, just needs skills designed for it. Till then, there's hardly any reason not to skip to straight offhands.

Symbol · Mar 02, 2007, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Wild strike and exhausting assault are good follow-ups to the leads. Fox-fangs could be good if it had a shorter recharge or allowed you to hit through blind/hexes (i.e "always hit" instead of "cannot be blocked").

Seamus Finn · Mar 02, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I disagree that the lead-offhand-dual is too fragile and klunky to see play. I think that with the current skills it is, i agree. But i think that's a flaw in the skill design, not the system. .

I think just giving the attacks a base damage/effect and then a bonus if followed in proper order would do wonders for the class. The whole miss concept in the chains makes NO sense on this class as far as the "lore" or whatever and only makes sense(and just barely if at all) in its current form due to the overpowering of one or maybe two chains.

Byron · Mar 02, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by EcHoMaN

Can't say I've come across such builds, that's why I asked, no need to get pissy.

Precisely why you're a hundred ranks higher than us now. AMIRITE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkain

Sins are doing what they're meant to do: running around killing people who can do nothing to stop it. Dammit, they're called assassins!

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but if you aren't, please realize that this is supposed to be a skill-based game. Simply bringing the 'best' skillbars to win a match makes me want to go back to Starcraft.

Some very good discussion about sin skill chains there. I'm not experienced enough in the class to add anything worthwhile to it...

I've now heard from several reliable people that Anet has all the ritualist and assassin skill fixes done, but they are waiting to release them all at once, in a grand nerf, likely after the celestial tournament. Maybe this was posted on QQ forums? In any case, my arguments here seem redundant with that information known.

Eonwe · Mar 03, 2007, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Ah yes, Cat Stevens is good.

bungusmaximus · Mar 07, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

No, they're doing what they're meant to do far too good. As others have pointed out, you can have a team build full of defensive skills that's so ridiculous that normally you wouldnt have any offensive power to kill anyone but with assassins they add the capability to spike someone down in seconds and it's not easy at all to prevent it. Ridiculous high defense + spiking offense = Totally freaking imbalanced.

Builds like 2 rits, a bunch of weapon spells, a spirit wall, 1 monk and a BOA sin, yuck

NeHoMaR · Mar 11, 2007, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Are not assassins completely useless with just one condition?

JONO51 · Mar 11, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

All those sisn is a thing of beauty XD

Zonzai · Mar 12, 2007, 07:05 AM // 07:05

That was a good video for a laugh. Thanks for sharing.

ll Templar ll · Mar 21, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

I am impressed with the video great job,also I wonder if anet paired these gvg's togeather

eventhough great match to watch