Curse

Hyunsai · Mar 01, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

It is, and why would it be horrendous? Sins were balanced around lead-offhand-dual chains. Bypassing this means bypassing a fundamental element of Sin design. I don't see how fixing that would be horrendous.

Well, Sins didn't wait Nightfall to stop using lead attacks. Because leads are pure crap (Well, except when you want to use Temple strike, ouarf). Since Faction, all sins already bypassed a CRAPPY element of Sin design...

I maintain that Shadow prison is the problem, not the black line (it's the lead and golden line that need improvement)

Riotgear · Mar 01, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

GPS/BLS were there since Factions.

Shadow Prison wasn't, so BLS never had a good trigger. Now it does, SP is not going to go away, and changing BLS is the best solution. This is the same situation as Wild Blow.

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Clearly offhand - dual was an intended design mechanic.

You said it yourself in another post, the hex requirement used to be a liability, which WAS the balancing factor on BLS. Every other lead-skip except for BSS and BLS has a hefty price tag attached.

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Nerfing the black attacks isn't going to force people to take leads, they'll just stop playing sins.

Using mobility (AOD) as an excuse to bring someone for base ganking is a better starting point than being able to reliably spike down someone with only one player slot, because then you can just stack your team with several and multi-spike.

Things like causing Daze is probably an even better starting point, I'd rather see assassins getting used for causing havoc (WTB Deadly Arts buffs) than simply stacking their bars for EZ-Spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

but it's not going to lead to an upsurge of other sin builds using leads, because the leads suck.

Underpowered things generally don't cause balance issues, unless they're counters. Overpowered things do. Right now, SP spike needs to die.

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I don't mind changing IAS if it means that the duration will scale higher than it does now with investment. If it was something like 1...12...16 seconds that would actually make it worth taking on a primary warrior while avoiding assassin abuse.

They're going to have to nerf BoA, Tiger Stance and Flail just to keep assassins from speed-boosting. While I don't think that's a huge deal due to the fact that all of those are Strength, there's still Tiger's Fury, which CAN be invested in, and will still be 5 seconds at the bottom end, though it's more costly. I don't think this is going to pan out well, because if the only thing keeping a class from being blatantly imba is an IAS, there are other problems. This is akin to creating a class that has 6 pips of natural energy regen, and then bumping up spell recharges for other classes as they become abused so it can't spam them as much.

The problem should be fixed at the source, and in this case, the source is lead-skipping in combination with overpowered SP.

Quote:

Well, Sins didn't wait Nightfall to stop using lead attacks. Because leads are pure crap (Well, except when you want to use Temple strike, ouarf). Since Faction, all sins already bypassed a CRAPPY element of Sin design...

The problem is that there is almost no way to make them effective with lead-offhand-dual combos and not be overpowered when they can skip the lead. Lead-skipping needs to be pricey or the class will never be properly balanced.

Hyunsai · Mar 01, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I can't agree on this. For example if you nerf Shadow Prison, the only build you hurt is the Burst prison one. Black lotus is used in many builds that don't include Shadow prison, and this is not the only viable hex sin use to trigger it. Those builds deserve a nerf because of this? Hardly. There was a Blinding surge problem, they fixed the skill. If there is a Shadow prison problem, they will fix this skill. Because there is NO imbalance in sin builds using Black lotus or Black Spider WITHOUT Shadow Prison.

Anyway, until we got a video of 5 burst prison sins raping a Balanced team in 3 minutes in the 100 top guild, I doubt that Anet will do anyhing, because against a Ritua Spike, this video is funny, but proves nothing...

Byron · Mar 01, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

How would you justify fitting Shadow Prison in a monk build when you can take return?

Shadow prison -> pacifism = OMFG HAXX.

I was mostly kidding tbh.

Legendary Shiz · Mar 01, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

I don't understand why everybody dislikes Shadow Prison. It allows sins to do what they were developed to do. It's not imba.

Zuranthium · Mar 01, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Sins were balanced around lead-offhand-dual chains. Bypassing this means bypassing a fundamental element of Sin design. I don't see how fixing that would be horrendous.

This should read "Sins were POORLY balanced around lead-offhand-dual" chains. Lead attacks suck and need an across-the-board improvement. No good Assassin build has ever used that kind of attack chain. [EVIL] used Shock, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs because SHOCK is better than any Lead Attack out there. Similarly, the only other Assassin build to see play before Nightfall was the Golden Phoenix/Horns/Falling/Twisting build. Neither of those builds were particularly great. NIGHTFALL and the added changes to skills such as Mobius Stike have finally gave the Assassin some worthwhile things to do. Now the problem is that there's too much damage compression on a Shadow Prison Assassin when factoring in IAS stances. So...fix the IAS skills. Problem solved.

I've already made a huge thread in the Suggestions forum, I'm not sure what page it's on anymore. BUT, I basically feel that the Black Strike offhand skills are right where they should be. Assassin attack skills NEED to be good because Daggers have sucky DPS and the chains can be disrupted, unlike Warrior or Dervish attack skills that are more independant. Lead/Offhand/Dual chains should be more about pressure, whereas chains that skip the Lead attack are about damage compression. The issue here is that the damage compression is TOO good, but it's not because of the Assassin skills. It's because of Warrior skills from their PRIMARY attribute (ie. - should not really be usuable for any other class) that were poorly laid out. Assassins have absolutely never been called imbalanced outside of this one build (and indeed, they were the LEAST PLAYED primary class in GvG last season), so I think the IAS stances are clearly the problem.

~Z

Riotgear · Mar 01, 2007, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

I don't understand why everybody dislikes Shadow Prison. It allows sins to do what they were developed to do. It's not imba.

People hate Shadow Prison because it's a brainless skill that takes both of the two traditionally skill-requiring aspects of melee (positioning and dealing with kiting) out of the equasion.

People hate Shadow Prison/BoA because it rewards you with kills for running your finger down your number keys, combined with the reasons they hate Shadow Prison. A two-year-old could get kills with it. Hell, my cat probably could, maybe I'll put my keyboard underneath the litterbox and find out.

If caster-range unkitable adrenospike with no real depth or utility is what the class was "developed to do," then they need to start making some changes. The whole concept of the class is bad, you can tell it's bad just by trying to make a build out of it and gawking at the number of attack skills you need. It's like they were trying to pander to RA noobs that couldn't comprehend adrenaline building, although to that extent, they did a pretty good job from day one.

Personally, I'd rather see bad concepts either heavily reworked, or just left to die. Entertaining crappy ideas produces junk like the new Discord, teetering on the edge of overpowered and useless.

Patrick Smit · Mar 01, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Off-Hand Attack. Must strike a foe hexed with an assassin hex. If it hits, Black Lotus Strike strikes for +10...27 damage and you gain 5...17 Energy. The next time you hit the same target with black lotus strike within 10 seconds*, the assassin hex will be consumed.

This might bring improvements or maybe it should even be global.
*Edit, this should be at least 15 seconds, global or any other hex based attack cause the recharge is 12 now, so 10 secs realy doesnt matter.

Ensign · Mar 01, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Nerfing the Black strike skills would bring the class back to lead-offhand-dual series again.

No it wouldn't, it would reintroduce Falling Spider and force Horns of the Ox or Shock back onto every bar with it. The lead/offhand/dual series is far too fragile and klunky to see serious play. The shortcuts are the skills that enable Assassins to be viable, not imbalanced mechanic breakers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Although honestly, Shadow Prison needs to get hit too. It completely removes the two biggest drawbacks to melee (positioning and kiting). Brainless skills need to go.

Duh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

If the point is just to get rid of SP spike, fine, nerf away, but it's not going to lead to an upsurge of other sin builds using leads, because the leads suck.

The offhands suck too. I tried making a bar with Unsuspecting Strike at one point, and the offhand I wanted to use was...Black Spider Strike, since I had a hex anyway and it is a much stronger skill than any of the offhands that need to follow a lead attack. Of course, then the question becomes 'why bother with Unsuspecting?'.

Regarding Black Lotus Strike - sure, it's a little too good. It's gone through the same problem cycle as a lot of Ritualist skills - flailing in the dark making numbers bigger without actually addressing the problem, then the skill being too good when the problem is addressed - and could use a slight nerf as a result. It's not overpowered enough to need a nerf, though, let alone an emergency nerf.

Peace,
-CxE

Riotgear · Mar 01, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

No it wouldn't, it would reintroduce Falling Spider and force Horns of the Ox or Shock back onto every bar with it. The lead/offhand/dual series is far too fragile and klunky to see serious play.

I said it was a better starting point. The reason I say that is because if they balance duals as being on the end of a 3-attack chain, the damage compression is going to remain too high when they're at the end of 2, followed by another 2 attacks later. If they're balanced against being on the end of a short chain, then they'll become too weak at the end of a longer one with a lead.

That's just one example, and I realize that lead-requiring offhands suck right now, but what I'm saying is that the way the class operates needs to be stabilized in order for any intelligent balancing to occur. The only other solution is to tweak duals and offhands to be of comparable power so that chain length ceases to be an issue, and assassin build-making stops becoming a simple effort to pack two duals into the shortest possible timespan.

Quote:

The offhands suck too.

Off-hands need better side-effects. They should also be able to follow duals.

Xasew · Mar 01, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Remove the +dmg from BLS, nerf the +dmg from BSS. Buff lead attacks. SP recharge to 25 seconds.

For start IMO.

Riotgear · Mar 01, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

Buff lead attacks.

Most leads are conceptually not too bad, especially Unsuspecting Strike. Offhands (which are needed to justify a lead) are what are more in need of a desperate buff.

[wiki]Off-hand attack skills quick reference[/wiki]

Seriously, read and weep.

Byron · Mar 01, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

People hate Shadow Prison because it's a brainless skill that takes both of the two traditionally skill-requiring aspects of melee (positioning and dealing with kiting) out of the equasion.

I'm no longer in favor of nerfing shadow prison. It should be removed from the game, or nerfed so hard that it might as well not be there. The overly defensive builds are getting way too scrubby. Being offensively capable while having spirits, wards, weapon spells, and aegis should never ever be possible.

Priest Of Sin · Mar 01, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Just because a build is good doesn't mean it's invincible. There are a TON of counters that i'll list at the bottom of my post.

as for removing IAS? No. Assassins are doing what they are DESIGNED to do, and that is to cause an extreme burst of damage to compliment their allies. Their main power comes from Deep Wound from TF, so you can really disrupt the whole chain and heal at your liesure if you blind them immediately.

Counters: Blind, Blurred Vision, Hex Removal, Stance Breakers, Snares, Crit-strike disablers, fast monking, blocking stance, weakness, Knockdown, SpellBreakers, holy veils, Heal Area (zomgwtf?), Infuse Health, Healing Touch, Condition Removal, Backfire, Empathy, SS, Faintheartedness, Shadow Of Fear, Meekness, armor-buff shouts, spirits, minion pressure on the sin, ect, ect, ECT.

Frustrated? Blind or Blurred Vision on the assassin. Remove his hex, his bar is dead. Buff up your armor to 80 and watch him squirm. Or just smack him around. Sins are fragile, and this build has 0 defense or self healing skills, so go nuts on him.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 01, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

Just because a build is good doesn't mean it's invincible. There are a TON of counters that i'll list at the bottom of my post.

as for removing IAS? No. Assassins are doing what they are DESIGNED to do, and that is to cause an extreme burst of damage to compliment their allies. Their main power comes from Deep Wound from TF, so you can really disrupt the whole chain and heal at your liesure if you blind them immediately.

Counters: Blind, Blurred Vision, Hex Removal, Stance Breakers, Snares, Crit-strike disablers, fast monking, blocking stance, weakness, Knockdown, SpellBreakers, holy veils, Heal Area (zomgwtf?), Infuse Health, Healing Touch, Condition Removal, Backfire, Empathy, SS, Faintheartedness, Shadow Of Fear, Meekness, armor-buff shouts, spirits, minion pressure on the sin, ect, ect, ECT.

Frustrated? Blind or Blurred Vision on the assassin. Remove his hex, his bar is dead. Buff up your armor to 80 and watch him squirm. Or just smack him around. Sins are fragile, and this build has 0 defense or self healing skills, so go nuts on him.

Your point being?
Every single overpowered skill in the history of Guild Wars had tons of counters. Are you telling me those weren't overpowered?

Kabale · Mar 01, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

This is not a discussion around the counters >.>

Legendary Shiz · Mar 01, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

To me, people complaining about sins are just people that don't want to get better and want everything to be easier.

Sins are doing what they are meant to do, and sometimes it can be hard to deal with and semi-frustrating. Pre-prot better/quicker and they won't touch you. Bring the blinder, do something.

These BoA sins arent good for ANYTHING outside of the little mini-spike. They don't apply good pressure, they aren't versatile at all. They are doing what they are meant to.

ArKaiN · Mar 01, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Yeah, what's wrong with you people? Sins are doing what they're meant to do: running around killing people who can do nothing to stop it. Dammit, they're called assassins!

The Ernada · Mar 01, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

To me, people complaining about sins are just people that don't want to get better and want everything to be easier.

Sins are doing what they are meant to do, and sometimes it can be hard to deal with and semi-frustrating. Pre-prot better/quicker and they won't touch you. Bring the blinder, do something.

These BoA sins arent good for ANYTHING outside of the little mini-spike. They don't apply good pressure, they aren't versatile at all. They are doing what they are meant to.

No, they're doing what they're meant to do far too good. As others have pointed out, you can have a team build full of defensive skills that's so ridiculous that normally you wouldnt have any offensive power to kill anyone but with assassins they add the capability to spike someone down in seconds and it's not easy at all to prevent it. Ridiculous high defense + spiking offense = Totally freaking imbalanced.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 01, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

you can have a team build full of defensive skills that's so ridiculous that normally you wouldnt have any offensive power to kill anyone but with assassins they add the capability to spike someone down in seconds and it's not easy at all to prevent it. Ridiculous high defense + spiking offense = Totally freaking imbalanced.

Builds such as?