Curse

Effigy · Feb 20, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

you really want both a Shield swap with reduced Dazed and a rune aswell...Cripple reduction rune and Shield swap are also really really usefull

Assuming you're only going to use one of the runes, which one would you say is more important? Reduced dazed or crippled? My guess would be dazed since it's harder to remove with Mending Touch.

Thom Bangalter · Feb 20, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Until the split meta is dominated by BHA and beguiling haze instead of YAA, various rangers builds, and non-haze sins, Double cripple is the way to go.

red orc · Feb 20, 2007, 07:35 AM // 07:35

You're right that on general LOD runner cannot protect himself or NPCs in his base like ZB runner. How ever you have to fit your build to your GH. Our's is Imperial and there LOD runner shines. It adds aegis + LOD to the party constantly. This saved us many a time. When we fight others who are ranked below us then the runner is less effective (i.e. in frozen), but since those guilds are weaker than the ones we face on our GH, it is ok. But I am still waiting for an answer of this forum which skill to take and why.

Zuranthium · Feb 20, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Thank God other people are dissing the whole LoD Runner fad. I've always hated that build and found it to be rather pointless.

~Z

JR · Feb 20, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Assuming you're only going to use one of the runes, which one would you say is more important? Reduced dazed or crippled? My guess would be dazed since it's harder to remove with Mending Touch.

Cripple. It's pretty much usefull in every game you play, and is absolutely key on Burning Isle. Dazed can be somewhat circumvented by having one of your other split characters Mending Touch you, but that isn't ideal either. There is very little more pleasing than being able to completely outmanouver someone on Burning Isle because they didn't have the foresight to prepare for splits.

Byron · Feb 20, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

No Protective spirit?

I don't even take prot spirit to TA anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I would much rather run an E/Mo runner with Prodigy and Heal Party if I didn't have an LoD at the flag stand. Glyph Lesser just isn't a substitute for Prodigy or LoD

Granted with all enthusiasm. E/Mo runners are still my favorite (old skool), but then you would lose the benefits of a third monk during a push. GoLE/HP is perhaps a compromise where LoD isn't around.

I also had the privelege of observing a few MH matches; I might have to change my mind about gale on a monk runner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

But I am still waiting for an answer of this forum which skill to take and why.

IMO:

12+1+1 heal, 8+1 DF, 9+1 prot, 5 air

Light of deliverance
Words of comfort (mayyyybe orison)
Mending touch
Shielding hands
Holy Veil
Storm Djinn's haste
Aegis
Glyph of lesser energy

Don't forget that enchant mod.

For your situation, the flagger should be able to see and anticipate ganks or attacks, and be able to pre-prot appropriately. Shielding hands for the reasons already mentioned, ditto on mending touch. Holy veil for water snares, or shadow prison.

Novita · Feb 20, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

LoD runner monks suck imo, they cant even save and archer when being ganked and youll still need a heal party at the flagstand. ZB is much stronger taking care of the NPCs and himself aswell.

Tbh i still hate monk runners...

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 20, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

E/Mo runners are still my favorite (old skool), but then you would lose the benefits of a third monk during a push.

A third monk is pretty useless during a push, actually. They help a little bit when you're playing defensively and desperately need red bars to go up, but even there I'd rather have water snares and blinds that allow my two flagstand monks to escape intact.

If you want a runner that's useful during a push, either a water ele or a Dom mes is the way to go.

Effigy · Feb 21, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

A little off topic, but how do Dom runners stand up? The ones I've seen were generally Me/E with no real self-heal or condition removal. It seems like it would be too easy to gank or harrass them as opposed to a more durable runner. Me/A with Deadly Paradox/Feigned Neutrality was harder to kill, but now that FN had a duration nerf it doesn't seem as viable. Thoughts?

Thomas.knbk · Feb 21, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

A little off topic, but how do Dom runners stand up? The ones I've seen were generally Me/E with no real self-heal or condition removal. It seems like it would be too easy to gank or harrass them as opposed to a more durable runner. Me/A with Deadly Paradox/Feigned Neutrality was harder to kill, but now that FN had a duration nerf it doesn't seem as viable. Thoughts?

I think Me/E's are more like flagstand characters that run a flag when they need to than like pure runners. They can only run quite well if noone harrasses them. If someone does, other people need to go back to escort them, which on bigger maps usually leads to a split.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 21, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Understand that Dom runners became popular before the recent nerfs, and at the time they carried a lot of damage on their bar. Spiritual Pain and Wastrel's Demise were both extremely popular as spike skills, and they both allowed a decent burst of damage that became very relevant in 2v2 or 3v3. Energy Surge added onto that burst, and Blinding Surge was nice spammable damage with a useful effect attached. Add that onto a 3-second Gale and the Dom mesmer was an extremely powerful and reasonably versatile skirmish template.

These days, the skill you want to bring on a Dom mesmer aren't that useful in skirmish. Diversion, Power Leak, or MoR are good at the flagstand, but they're not going to win you 2v2s with any consistency. Water Trident is pretty nice though, and I think it's the saving grace of Dom runners these days.

HolyHawk · Feb 21, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Me/E cannot expose themselves, and probably won't dispatch anything on their own; their primary defense will be probably gale, and you will see them oftenly being escorted. They can be strong in a push, but apart from that, they are suscetible to a gank.

Seamus Finn · Feb 21, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Understand that Dom runners became popular before the recent nerfs, and at the time they carried a lot of damage on their bar. Spiritual Pain and Wastrel's Demise were both extremely popular as spike skills, and they both allowed a decent burst of damage that became very relevant in 2v2 or 3v3. Energy Surge added onto that burst, and Blinding Surge was nice spammable damage with a useful effect attached. Add that onto a 3-second Gale and the Dom mesmer was an extremely powerful and reasonably versatile skirmish template.

These days, the skill you want to bring on a Dom mesmer aren't that useful in skirmish. Diversion, Power Leak, or MoR are good at the flagstand, but they're not going to win you 2v2s with any consistency. Water Trident is pretty nice though, and I think it's the saving grace of Dom runners these days.

Agreed with most of this. The dom runner has gotten harder to play since before you coudl jsu tnuke whatever. However, I still really like this runner just because you have a mes with a speed buff. If you like to run builds that have a lot of split options, this mesmer can pack the stuff that gets you a win in small skirmishes that might otherwise be pretty hopeless or timeconsuming. Basically, diversion and blackout give you enough edge so that you can deal with the Rit/E ganker, and if you are careful enough you can also deal with teh hex splitters as well. Lastly, he is nice for breaking down the monk turle-in-his-base-and-zb-his-npcs runner. Of course this is for build that like a lot of split options. The other instance is just if you want a really frontloaded offence at the stand and something needs to get a flag every now and then. I would say he is the most difficult runner to use on a team at the moment since he requires more communication to use effectively.

Nysidious · Feb 22, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Well Here Is My Two Cents On This Topic. I
ts Basic Common Sense. Dont Have A Monk Runner Unless Your Going To Have A Three Monk Backline. If you have one monk running the flag and one monk with the group the one in the group will die. Its like he is asking to die. I know some of you are saying well the Runner isn't going to be running the flag all the time. In competitive GvG running the flag is the most important aspect of the game and versus a good group the monk will be running the flag all the time.

If you are doing to have a three monk back line then i would say go with a LoD Healer, Divert Hexes Prot and ZB Prot as the flag runner. I know other mabye thinking well why not have two monks and a rit Thats even more stupid because it make no sense to have two prot monks and one rit because it is almost obvious you need a prot monk running the flag and if you have a lod healer with the main group the smart opposing team will gang on him and will kill him because Weapon of Remedy wont hold him up for that line.

In my opinion for a flag runner i would either use a blind bot but in some cases he will be useless to the party and sometimes to him self if he gets hit by gankers. The next choice which is my choice is the add either a Icy Shackles Flag runner with storm Djinns haste or either mind Freeze. This can help aid with spikes and imobolize the enemy. The good thing about this is that you dont need alot of points invested in Air Magic for Storm Djinns haste to be viable.

Blaze

Thom Bangalter · Feb 22, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nysidious

Well Here Is My Two Cents On This Topic. I
ts Basic Common Sense. Dont Have A Monk Runner Unless Your Going To Have A Three Monk Backline. If you have one monk running the flag and one monk with the group the one in the group will die. Its like he is asking to die. I know some of you are saying well the Runner isn't going to be running the flag all the time. In competitive GvG running the flag is the most important aspect of the game and versus a good group the monk will be running the flag all the time.

If you are doing to have a three monk back line then i would say go with a LoD Healer, Divert Hexes Prot and ZB Prot as the flag runner. I know other mabye thinking well why not have two monks and a rit Thats even more stupid because it make no sense to have two prot monks and one rit because it is almost obvious you need a prot monk running the flag and if you have a lod healer with the main group the smart opposing team will gang on him and will kill him because Weapon of Remedy wont hold him up for that line.

In my opinion for a flag runner i would either use a blind bot but in some cases he will be useless to the party and sometimes to him self if he gets hit by gankers. The next choice which is my choice is the add either a Icy Shackles Flag runner with storm Djinns haste or either mind Freeze. This can help aid with spikes and imobolize the enemy. The good thing about this is that you dont need alot of points invested in Air Magic for Storm Djinns haste to be viable.

Blaze

I'm at a loss for words, especially over the first part.

Zuranthium · Feb 22, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Well I at least agree with him on the first line of the second paragraph. LOL.

~Z

Morganas · Feb 22, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

To add to the mesmer runner discussion, psychic distraction is also very good to run on them. A dom runner won't be able to 1v1 anyone anyways, but PD is great in a 2v2 situation and during push. It will absolutely screw over assassin gankers. Recommend running it with arcane thievery and channeling (since they're not really impacted by PD's drawback), along with a snare and run buff.

I've seen an illusion mes/e both effectively run the flag and solo gank, but I can't remember what he was running. He was pretty worthless at pushing and at the stand though.

Suedars · Feb 22, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

If I remember right MH ran a Crippling Anguish runner a while back. I can't remember the rest of the bar though.

Phelann · Feb 22, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suedars

If I remember right MH ran a Crippling Anguish runner a while back. I can't remember the rest of the bar though.

a) the crip anguish was a split character
b) every time someone calls a character in our group the runner I want to stab my eyes out. we rotate around who runs alot, we just happen to have a splittable monk that can do alot of running also

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nysidious

Well Here Is My Two Cents On This Topic. I
ts Basic Common Sense. Dont Have A Monk Runner Unless Your Going To Have A Three Monk Backline. If you have one monk running the flag and one monk with the group the one in the group will die. Its like he is asking to die. I know some of you are saying well the Runner isn't going to be running the flag all the time. In competitive GvG running the flag is the most important aspect of the game and versus a good group the monk will be running the flag all the time.

If you are doing to have a three monk back line then i would say go with a LoD Healer, Divert Hexes Prot and ZB Prot as the flag runner. I know other mabye thinking well why not have two monks and a rit Thats even more stupid because it make no sense to have two prot monks and one rit because it is almost obvious you need a prot monk running the flag and if you have a lod healer with the main group the smart opposing team will gang on him and will kill him because Weapon of Remedy wont hold him up for that line.

In my opinion for a flag runner i would either use a blind bot but in some cases he will be useless to the party and sometimes to him self if he gets hit by gankers. The next choice which is my choice is the add either a Icy Shackles Flag runner with storm Djinns haste or either mind Freeze. This can help aid with spikes and imobolize the enemy. The good thing about this is that you dont need alot of points invested in Air Magic for Storm Djinns haste to be viable.

Blaze

If stupid analogies like "this is just my 2 cents" carried over to real life, the value of the American dollar would have just plummeted to negative values from the stupidity of this post.

Byron · Feb 22, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

A third monk is pretty useless during a push, actually.

I'll have to respectfully disagree there. But, I suppose it really depends on the manner of the push. When your team is dominating and seeking to wipe the enemy team, then yes, more offensive capability would certainly help. If the push is defensive in nature (ie counter-attack), like pushing out of your own base, then another healer would be a great advantage IMO. Not only to allow the offense to chug-chug, but also to keep the NPCs healed.

That's really simple logic; I think we just have different definitions of "push."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

we rotate around who runs alot, we just happen to have a splittable monk that can do alot of running also

I think that's the proper way to do it. Restricting one character's usefulness to running flags will make that character a good flag runner, no doubt. But that would only inhibit the usefulness in 8v8 situations.