Curse

red orc · Feb 18, 2007, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Spirit bond, protective spirit, shield of absorbtion, shielding hands ?

LOD Monk runner often gets to the flag stand when he knows he's going to be jumped (in this case he can prepare). He can also use it to help team and to protect himself Vs spikes or when he runs alone.
He takes one of those to reduce damage, which is the best overall ?

Thomas.knbk · Feb 18, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I'd take SoA with a 20% mod. Also note your runner can take ZB as elite and be 100% prot. ZB runners are quite a strong solo template, and you can afford to have an 8 sec SoA.

Lady Callingwell · Feb 18, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

PS is the only thing that allows you to run past catapults, and it's great preprotting you can manage yourself and cover up with storm djinn's to prevent getting spiked while planting the flag.

llsektorll · Feb 18, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

probably a LOD just for support it comes in handy on many maps when your gank squad needs extra heals to make it out alive

Thom Bangalter · Feb 18, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

monk runners suck. don't take them.

llsektorll · Feb 19, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

monk runners suck. don't take them.

this is guild wars... nothing sucks it is all about how it is implemented and who is playing

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 19, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Take a ZB bar and build from there. The only reason you want a monk runner rather than a stand LoD is so you'll have someone with a lot of healing who can turtle in the boat with minimal help while your stand team advances and crushes the enemy. ZB runners are actually pretty useful in heavy 8v8 pressure or spike builds for that reason.

I don't like LoD runners. LoD is weak enough without the threat of having it out of range, even for short periods. Add that to the fact that a single warrior can easily kill an LoD runner most of the time. The bar just sucks.

JR · Feb 19, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Take a ZB bar and build from there. The only reason you want a monk runner rather than a stand LoD is so you'll have someone with a lot of healing who can turtle in the boat with minimal help while your stand team advances and crushes the enemy. ZB runners are actually pretty useful in heavy 8v8 pressure or spike builds for that reason.

I don't like LoD runners. LoD is weak enough without the threat of having it out of range, even for short periods. Add that to the fact that a single warrior can easily kill an LoD runner most of the time. The bar just sucks.

I agree.

The LoD runner is basicly adding a third monk to your build purely for the sake of that one elite, trying to substitute Heal Party. Really there is no reason not to just run an LoD on a flag stand Monk, which frees up an entire character.

An LoD monk doesn't have the same suvivability of an E/Mo runner (you can't spam B-Flash and Snares), all it is basicly good at is running around and using LoD.

Then you have two strong options: Offensive runners and defensive runners.

Offensive runners are basicly Mesmers, usually Domination based. Energy Surge or Pyschic Distraction, Energy Burn, Shatter Enchant... then some form of speed boost like Storm Djinn's Haste or Dash. These guys have limited splittability, but are strong at making pushes at the stand.

Defensive runners would basicly be ZB Monks or E/Mos. Everyone knows about the standard E/Mo template so i'll just talk about the ZB runner. The bar I run for this character looks like this:

ZB Runner
Monk/Elementalist

Divine Favor: 12 (11+1)
Protection Prayers: 14 (12+2)
Air Magic: 6

- Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
- Shielding Hands (Protection Prayers)
- Zealous Benediction [Elite] (Protection Prayers)
- Mending Touch (Protection Prayers)
- Holy Veil (Monk other)
- Glyph of Lesser Energy (Elementalist other)
- Storm Djinn's Haste (Air Magic)
- Gale (Air Magic)

With Shielding Hands, Mending Touch and a +10AL vs. Piercing shield you can farily comfortably tank two Assassins - which really are probably the biggest threat to a smart runner. Holy Veil allows you to deal with most common problematic Ice snares (run past them while they enjoy the double cast time, drop it as the snare hits and run off). Gale is just a standard snare for offensive or Defensive purposes.

Even though I described it as a Defensive runner, it does allow a more offensive play style. In an 8v8 build you can deal with most splits with this guy alone, just turtling in your Lord room when things get rough - meaning your main team can just roll forward. In a split based build he allows you to push a LOT more offensively with your split, as they have some heavy healing support, letting you deal with your opponents defensive splits more easily.

Both styles of runner are strong, and far more flexible than an LoD Monk. Really which one you take depends on your build at the center.

- If your center build has no splittable characters at all (dedicated 7v7 build), then you will want to take the Monk who can handle splitting defensively himself.

- If you run a dedicated split and your split already has strong support (Weapon of Remedy Ritualist, for example) then you would probably consider the Mesmer.

- If you run what I am going to describe as a balanced build, with some ability to split depending on situations, then it really depends on how generally offensive or defensive your characters are. Whether that extra offense is going to get you the kills that you need, or whether that extra defense is going to help you stay up to get kills.

I really, really don't like LoD Monk runners though.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 19, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Absolutely.

I'd also like to add that I think air E/Mos are completely useless now. Every skirmish character worth caring about carries condition removal, and with the Gale nerf you're not nearly as big a help pushing at the flagstand. Water eles can still be fairly strong if you have the skirmish characters to support them though. They're pretty weak 1v1, but get a lot stronger in 2v2 or 3v3.

Thom Bangalter · Feb 19, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Absolutely.

I'd also like to add that I think air E/Mos are completely useless now. Every skirmish character worth caring about carries condition removal, and with the Gale nerf you're not nearly as big a help pushing at the flagstand. Water eles can still be fairly strong if you have the skirmish characters to support them though. They're pretty weak 1v1, but get a lot stronger in 2v2 or 3v3.

Blind sucks shit these days. Thanks mending touch!

Seamus Finn · Feb 19, 2007, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Blind sucks shit these days. Thanks mending touch!

I wouldn't say it sucks. Although it's use is now primarily at the stand, it still provides some of the best spike disruption around.

I very much hate monk runners. Not because they can't perform a job, but that the way they perform it is about as mindless as possible: run the flags. Someone jumps you? heal. Someone tries to gank your base? Heal the npcs. This provides a very easy to use stall tactics that is about as obvious a solution to ganks that could be imagined, although it's still jsut a stall tactic, it must be the best one around if that's all you need from your runner. Basically the easiest flagger one could run is the ZB monk, and I would admit seeing one of these guys in the enemy base while I was ganking would make me very unhappy. But still... you are basically running 3 monks in you rbuild and this isn't HA.

THe power surge on gank bars has really hurt the standard air ele bar, and has caused the atrocity of the monk runner as well. However, as JR pointed out, most monk backlines pack their own heal party, so subbing /Rt on an ele may bring him back to his old job.... maybe.

HolyHawk · Feb 19, 2007, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Observer isn't proof of everything, but I see monk runners getting killed rather often by a gank. Not saying they go down easilly, but even if someone is sent to aid him defend the base, people are not scared to keep on a push. I'd say I don't like monk runners because you dedicate an entire bar for support and you lose the ability to scare away people invading. After these buffs on ritualists, it's pretty much possible to build a hibrid restoration / channeling rt that can handle most of the standart ganking builds, while still being able to achieve some kill eventually. And not necessarilly making use of the life stealing weapons. Ritualists still need some exploration.

JR posted an ideal bar. I too do not think lod should be on a runner, with a few map exceptions, that can reach the main battleground while cornered at your own base. You do see ZB in 4x4 format a lot, and it's strong because it grants you more time surviving. Your running path should present situations similar to a 4x4 combat. I'm just not sure on shielding hands; I personally like guardian to break assassins chains, avoid interruptions, or eventually tank in a good position where my npcs will be doing something to the invader. But that's my opinion.

JR · Feb 19, 2007, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

I'm just not sure on shielding hands; I personally like guardian to break assassins chains, avoid interruptions, or eventually tank in a good position where my npcs will be doing something to the invader. But that's my opinion.

1/4 second cast. When you are on a Monk that will be dealing with dazed, interrupt spamming Rangers, and Assassins who KD during their chains - 1/4 second casts really become money. I agree entirely that the effect Guardian has is superior to Shielding Hands, but it's getting it off that I am worried about.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 19, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

It always amuses me when runner monks take the new SoA. SoA was always terrible in skirmish, and with the 1s cast I'm more likely to kill someone because they stopped to cast SoA. It's a powerful skill that can be totally worth it on a flagstand monk, but the only place it's remotely useful in skirmish is against mass NPC damage when splitting offensively.

Yue · Feb 19, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

A good zb monk runner is a pain in the ass to kill. We used to run an lod runner, mainly to power our splits since we were always all over the map. He didn't have an issue with staying alive, but after a while we figured a water ele might be better for the offense. Nice thing about a zb runner is if you need to turtle solo, you can pretty much hold the npcs up by yourself.

Byron · Feb 19, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

ZB Runner
Monk/Elementalist

...

Glyph of lesser energy/heal party is simply too great to pass on for a ZB runner IMO. I'm assuming with that bar that you plan on an LoD in the backline, in which case, it would be a solid defensive bar. However, having a ZB/infuse and divert hexes backline, or something that isn't LoD, makes Heal parties simply wonderful.

What loses out is gale. I know we all love the skill, but...

11+1+1 prot
8+1 DF
10+1 heal
6 air

IMO, with GoLE/HP.

Quote:

I really, really don't like LoD Monk runners though.

I don't much like LoD backliners (cast time!), and think the skill slides pretty naturally into the flag running position. Storm djinn's haste just provides a nice way to deliver it. It saves matches against pressure, especially hexes. Not to say it's wonderful, or anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

A good zb monk runner is a pain in the ass to kill

A good monk is a pain in the ass to kill, IMHO.

glountz · Feb 19, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

ZB Runner
Monk/Elementalist

Divine Favor: 12 (11+1)
Protection Prayers: 14 (12+2)
Air Magic: 6

- Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
- Shielding Hands (Protection Prayers)
- Zealous Benediction [Elite] (Protection Prayers)
- Mending Touch (Protection Prayers)
- Holy Veil (Monk other)
- Glyph of Lesser Energy (Elementalist other)
- Storm Djinn's Haste (Air Magic)
- Gale (Air Magic)

No Protective spirit? It saved my butt countless time, as many split teams lack disenchants and rely on heavy damage to destroy base NPCs.

Thom Bangalter · Feb 19, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

what teams are this? Most splits consist of burning arrow rangers, a warrior with sever/gash, or sins. Sins can be countered easily be guardian, or with jr's build shielding hands+mending touch.

Really, mending touch counters pretty much every split I can think of.

MaaKotka · Feb 19, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

No Protective spirit? It saved my butt countless time, as many split teams lack disenchants and rely on heavy damage to destroy base NPCs.

Actually now only time when I think prot spirit is better than shileding hands for runner is when you want to run through catapult fire or when you have low points in protection prayers. Because as a runner you have usually high max life enemies have to be getting you very big hits for prot spirit to get better damage reduction than sh. Sh also works against enemies autoattacks where ps does basically nothing and therefore prevents actually much more damage than ps. Also when you are at flagstand there usually some other monk has ps for you.

JR · Feb 20, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

No Protective spirit? It saved my butt countless time, as many split teams lack disenchants and rely on heavy damage to destroy base NPCs.

The most common splits are Assassins, BA/BHA Rangers, YAA Sword Warriors, and Remedy Rits. Protective Spirit will do next to nothing against any of these. Versus catapults or sentinels I could almost see it being worth taking, but really with 630hp and a 10AL vs. Fire shield you should be able to survive either.

The reduced condition duration runes and inscriptions are really worth talking about too. For as long as Broad Head Arrow Rangers are around you really want both a Shield swap with reduced Dazed and a rune aswell. For as long as YAA Warriors and Cripshots are around, or the possibility that you will be playing on Burning Isle, Cripple reduction rune and Shield swap are also really really usefull. Having that extra bonus makes a huge difference when running through lava, especially with a speed boost. It vastly increases your mobility and the amount of degen you are going to take from the lava.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Glyph of lesser energy/heal party is simply too great to pass on for a ZB runner IMO. I'm assuming with that bar that you plan on an LoD in the backline, in which case, it would be a solid defensive bar. However, having a ZB/infuse and divert hexes backline, or something that isn't LoD, makes Heal parties simply wonderful.

I would much rather run an E/Mo runner with Prodigy and Heal Party if I didn't have an LoD at the flag stand. Glyph Lesser just isn't a substitute for Prodigy or LoD.