Curse

Thomas.knbk · Mar 20, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Glyph of Lesser Energy
I think this skill seriously needs a look at. With no attribute investment whatsoever it outperform any non-elite energy management, and some elite options as well. It outperforms Energy Drain at any spec, it outperforms Offering of Blood up till 11 Blood Magic, and it outperforms Mantra of Recall at any spec too (ok, at 17 inspiration MoR is better).
Some numbers:
Glyph of Lesser Energy potentially saves you 25 energy every 31 seconds. This is 0,806 energy per second, or 2,42 pips. This is so much more than any other non-elite energy management skill, it's not even funny. (for instance, Drain Enchantment at 12 inspiration is stuck at 0,23 energy per second, or 0, 68 pips) Even the pre-nerf Drain Enchantment didn't come close.
One of the supposed drawbacks is that you have to cast certain spells (15e or more) at certain times in order to get its full effect. This, however, is hardly a drawback because if you cast a 15e skill and a 10e skill under the glyph you still get 20 energy every 31 seconds, or 0,65 energy per second, or 1,94 pips. If you cast one 15e and one 5e, or 2 10e skills under the glyph you get 15 energy every 31 seconds, or 0,48 energy per second, or 1,45 pips. Only if you cast a 10e and a 5e spell under the glyph it comes close to other non-elite energy management, with 10 energy every 31 seconds, or 0,32 enery per second, or 0,97 pip. This will never really happen though, because you will almost always have at least two 10e skills you can cast.
Another supposed drawback, and I'm talking mostly about monks here, is that you give up the self defense a warrior or assassin secondary could have given you. The problem here is that Glyph of Lesser Energy/Aegis on 2 monks is actually the best defense you can get, and as a bonus it protects your entire team.
Glyph of Lesser Energy was already good before it got buffed in some builds. The buff made it viable in every build, and surpreme in the builds where it already was a viable skill.
What I would like to see done is a linking to energy storage, making it 'your next 1...2..2 skills cost 15 less energy'. This way, it would at least require some attribute investment to get it to elite-level, but it would once again be the pip glyph without attribute investment.

Go Forth and Discusseth

Shmanka · Mar 20, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

I know this was already brought up in a degenerated thread but this is what I have to say. I think energy management should be more powerful, not as powerful as before but definitely not as weak as it is now.

The mathematics you are definitely correct, this is considering the fact that you fully fledged out abuse the full effect. But when you look at it, it has a huge restriction, in a 15 second time frame the following 2 spells only. If people are truly skepticle about this, you might as well completely delete over half of the skills in GW as well since they just blow nuts to begin with.

GoLE is what I like to now call a "good" skill with a restricted benefit. I now categorize it along with Diversion, Gale, Eviscerate etc etc as insanely good GvG options no matter what your build's focus/goal is. This skill can aid in most things. Personally in HA I do not use it, in GvG I ask 2 monks to use it.

The combination of skills that were mentioned it is overpowered with is Aegis, althought I think this is a true misunderstanding of what overpowered is. Something that I admit is somewhat overpowered with GoLE is Purge Signet.

Schorny · Mar 20, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Something that I admit is somewhat overpowered with GoLE is Purge Signet.

Is there any hidden semantik I missed?

Lord Mendes · Mar 20, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

Is there any hidden semantik I missed?

GoLE makes signets free!!!
Yeah, glyph doesn't affect purge signet in any way shape or form, unless you mean purge conditions, in which case, lol.

Shmanka · Mar 20, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

GoLE makes signets free!!!
Yeah, glyph doesn't affect purge signet in any way shape or form, unless you mean purge conditions, in which case, lol.

I just believe that it is quite the escape from the drawback Purge Signet does. Essentially losing all your energy rendering you helpless, yet if you had cast GoLE beforehand you have essentially 30 energy to play with and time to gain that energy back. Its just a nice combination monks use but I find it unfair when I call a spike on the monk who just used the purge, and he gets off an Aegis+Spirit Bond with 0 energy. The monk had definitely sacraficed his mana to take off the massive hexes/whatnot on the other char and he gets away scott free. I understand skill combinations are suppose to be powerful but this one is just cheezy at best.

That is my only problem against GoLE.

Quote:

Is there any hidden semantik I missed?

I'm actually serious being able to use 30 energy when your pool says 0 is pretty BS, IMO.

Symbol · Mar 20, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Er, I'm pretty sure everyone just swaps to a low e set to use purge, so the drawback is a non-issue.

Shmanka · Mar 20, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Er, I'm pretty sure everyone just swaps to a low e set to use purge, so the drawback is a non-issue.

It is still an issue. It does not matter what set you have, infact it should be priori for monks for have a shield+sword with no energy if purge is being brought for that exact effect you mentioned. Yet still being able to stop alot of the problem with GoLE is something that I just personally have a problem with. I just find that unfair compared to most skill combinations.

Farin · Mar 20, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Purge sig has nothing to do with GoLE .. Purge sig doesn't bother a monk's energy that much.

Patccmoi · Mar 20, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

His point is mostly that if you use GoLE -> switch to low energy set -> use purge signet then you can use 2 spells with 0E without switching set back... i think that's his point anyway.

One way or another, i don't really see how that matters.

Personally, i used to have a problem with GoLE and now i dunno. Offensive casters BADLY need good non-elite emanagement. Nearly all the good emanagement in the game in inspiration got killed because monks could use it. Necros have a good one now in SR (SoLS). Eles have Attunement + GoLE. Rts have mostly low cost spell and Essence Strike or AwS but overall it's not shiny when it comes to non-elite emanagement. Mesmers... Mesmers are left with a very crappy Inspiration line (Power Drain being possibly the one and only exception. Things like Ether Phantom-Drain Delusions isn't bad either, but it's not actually emanagement, it's edenial. Spirit of Failure is really nice too but it's nothing close to reliable emanagement) and more often than not replace all of it by GoLE because it requires no investment.

What needs to be done before they consider nerfing Glyph is to actually seriously buff other offensive casters emanagement in a way that WON'T help monks, because any emanagement that's too good on monks makes the game horribly boring and gets nerfed. Things like 2s cast Drain Enchantment which much better energy gain and 20s recharge for example, monks won't use it at 2s cast but Mesmers can.

Offensive casters are already in general at a disadvantage when compared to physical classes, and that won't change by hurting one of the only strong non-elite emanagement in the game. Until emanagement for offensive casters is improved significantly, i think that GoLE should remain as it is.

I'm fully agreeing that it's overpowered and i agree 100% with the fact that it should be 1..2 next spells and linked to estorage (because it's balanced for Eles, it's mostly imbalanced for other classes), but not if the other classes don't get good emanagement buff at the same time. Otherwise it's just yet another change that would push the game towards physical classes (especially since even Aegis would become harder to use then).

Domon Kasho · Mar 20, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Purge sig has nothing to do with GoLE .. Purge sig doesn't bother a monk's energy that much.

explain how losing all of you energy doesnt bother a monk?

Thom Bangalter · Mar 20, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

who the hell is this godly monk with full energy all the time?

Bankai · Mar 20, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I know this was already brought up in a degenerated thread but this is what I have to say. I think energy management should be more powerful, not as powerful as before but definitely not as weak as it is now.

No. Freaking. Way.

With very strong energy management, it's very hard to kill enemies by draining them of energy with pressure, and even more people will resort to spiking.

And spiking is lame.

tomcruisejr · Mar 20, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

GoLE only shows that other forms of E-Management suck.

Bastian · Mar 20, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domon Kasho

explain how losing all of you energy doesnt bother a monk?

I don't know about you, but I don't lose all my energy with Purge Signet. For those people that already understand how to monk and use purge signet forgive me for being so forthcoming about the "secrets of monking"

The most energy I will lose as a monk is going to be 27 energy with Purge Signet. That is if I have a full bar of health, which is not very often.

How do I do this you ask? By what means can I remove 10 hexes off someone with Purge Signet and only lose a maximum 27 energy?

Its is called a low energy set. Then, I have this hidden energy that I can use with a normal or even (and this is the big secret) a high energy set with lots of energy to cast Spirit Bond, Prot Spirit, or even Aegis afterwards...

Please don't tell anyone...

On Topic:

I agree with TomCruiseJr...

There are not very good energy management skills for a Monk. Leech Sig or Power Drain would probably be my next two favorites. Even without GoLE, I think Aegis itself is a great form of E-Management because I have time to regen energy while melee is having a hard time against my team...

Patccmoi · Mar 20, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

No. Freaking. Way.

With very strong energy management, it's very hard to kill enemies by draining them of energy with pressure, and even more people will resort to spiking.

And spiking is lame.

If energy management is done in a way that it's useful for OFFENSIVE casters, then it's likely fine. When emanagement is abusable by monks, then it leads to extremely lame and boring meta. But there's definitely ways to make emanagement to other classes that's worth it. At worse include it in their primary attribute. A good FC based non-elite emanagement would do soooo much for Mesmers. Not a pointless signet-based emanagement elite. SoLS for Necros certainly gave that to them, it's such a good emanagement for Necro right now and it's not abusable by monks.

Cause atm melee can pressure forever because they have 'infinite', or rather cycling, ressource to pressure, while all offensive casters go lower and lower as fight procede, and in long fights are simply not as valuable as physicals as a whole. And that sucks.

Not Prime Time · Mar 20, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

When I first read the skill update, I was not sure it was needed. I did not think it was broken though. Personally I liked the skill before the buff. I Would rather have seen the cool down dropped to 20 seconds to be more in line with MoR. Ofcourse now in it's current state I would make the cast time 2 seconds or, return it too it's original state and drop the cool down to 20 seconds.

This buff was not needed IMO. Almost as if someone is implying that more damage was needed. Has someone at Anet been reading "Why Nuking Sucks"? Sure seems like it. It's hard to image that someone put this skill change in and did not think it would get abused by monks. To have 5 energy and cast GoLE+ZB+Aegis, OMG what where they thinking! Plus there are only a few interrupts that effect a glyph. Complicate and Leech signet come to mind and ofcourse KD. So this was already a superior skill before the buff.

Before I read this post I did not think it was broken but I agree with Thomas.knbk this needs to be fixed. Plus reading GuildWiki "Incompleted spells do not count as one of the two castings. This means that even if your first spell is canceled or interrupted, you can still cast two more times with the glyph's benefits.". Definitely needs some attention!

HolyHawk · Mar 21, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

I agree with attribute progression, since nothing will change on other e-management skills anyway. I would certainlly take energy drain if it was a little better, just by the fact foe is going to lose energy as well.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 21, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

If energy management is done in a way that it's useful for OFFENSIVE casters, then it's likely fine. When emanagement is abusable by monks, then it leads to extremely lame and boring meta.

I agree with this. Offensive casters do need good energy management, but the problem is energy management for offensive casters almost always works on monks too. Every single guild I fought last night had mo/e's with GoLE and an aegis chain. The warrior part of me thinks it's stupid, because he can't do anything, but the monk part of me hates it too. All I do as a monk is saving spikes, because if you don't spike you might as well /resign against an aegis chain.

Riotgear · Mar 21, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

If energy management is done in a way that it's useful for OFFENSIVE casters, then it's likely fine.

Reduced spell costs.

Patccmoi · Mar 21, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Reduced spell costs.

You know, I'm not convinced that's a solution. Because there's also a balancing part to spell cost that's important if you don't want to raise the recharge.

Spell cost prevents from using all your big spells back to back without a problem. You don't want to burn your full energy pool straight, or you will burn your energy pool straight but then you have to refill it (which isn't a problem).

What i'd like to see is more for casters to be able to cycle their energy in a similar way that melee does it. Warriors work on adrenaline and Zealous weapon on switch that allow them to refill their full ressource quickly during a fight when they stop using skills a few seconds and just swing on target. Assassins can also burn their energy in full using tons of hexes and combo, and then they just hit a bit around and Crit Strike refills their bar.

It's exactly how Mind Blaster works too imo, and it's why Mind Blast is one of my favorite Ele elites atm (allows for lots of build versatility while keeping good damage). Because you can use lots of big energy stuff back to back, but then you can replenish your full bar quickly by going on a high energy set and Mind Blasting all over the place to be ready for the next big pressure push.

I don't want bars to 'empty slower', i want bars to go back up faster. Some elites allow that, but i don't want to be stuck on emanagement elites forever. I like skills like Power Drain for example, which have a decent cooldown (still not something stupid like Ether Signet) but when you use them your bar goes WAY up. Which allows you again to just go in pressure cycle, where you can apply heavy pressure burning your energy but knowing that you have a good way to take it back up.

But nearly no non-elite skill allows that. Elite emanagement should allow you to have near unlimited energy to spam stuff (think EProd), but at the cost that your elite does just that. But non-elite emanagement should allow you to efficiently cycle your energy, so that you go down, but you can bring it back up quickly. Ele attunements don't even do that, because once an Ele's energy pool is down, if you don't have an emanagement elite, well your pool is down even with an attunement there. If a Mesmer decided to strip your enchants and PLeak you 1-2 times, there's very good chances that you'll have serious trouble doing much at all for the rest of the fight unless you plan to spend 45s wanding. Because only their emanagement elite allows them to refill their energy (GoLE on the other hand allows you to use 2 big skills without actually having energy, which is useful too).

But there's one caster that SHOULDN'T have the ability to easily cycle his energy, and that's monks. Because if monks can easily refill their energy bar, it makes pressure quite hard to apply and all you can do is spike. So instead, monks have very energy efficient skills, but they function on limited ressources, which is good. Problem is that with the dual class system, it's not always easy to give other classes good emanagement option that won't just be used by monks.

Something that could be interesting for example is to allow energy regen to increase after you haven't cast a spell for x time (maybe except for monks, not sure...). Similar to how life regen works. For example, after 5 seconds spent not casting a spell, you gain 1 pip of energy regen. For each 3 seconds after you gain an extra pip, up to a maximum of say 8 pips. This means that in the middle of a fight, or between fight, you can quickly regen all your energy BUT you must not be casting during that time (so wanding ftw i guess). Monks could possibly work the same way, they would just regen their energy faster if you're not pressuring them but if you force them to keep casting this extra energy regen wouldn't happen, or just marginally.