Curse

elektra_lucia · Mar 20, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

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Are you intoxicated? These statements that are coming are beyond ridiculous, your claiming everyone here is deriving from the main argument yet you compared how PD is not overpowered on an ele or skullcrack on sins? People are saying Aegis is overpowered or balanced, with the aid of GoLE another debate rose how GoLE breaks Aegis more, and therefore GoLE is overpowered as well.

What can I say, I'm a newb. Regardless, the point was that just because it belongs to a profession doesn't mean it is imbalanced because it works well as a secondary.

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This thread has degenerated to Oliver the Grouch's Trashcan you can find on granola street.

You're the one getting all personal and saying I'm on drugs and stuff.

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Expel Hexes would be imbalanced if it removed 3 hexes, and had a nice side effect attatched to it. Such as, target ally loses one condition and is healed for 63 health for every hex removed.

Yeah but there isn't a fine line between when it becomes balanced and when it doesn't. People are making aegis sound extremely imbalanced, I personally think it's balanced.

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The way I see it:

Any half-decent Monk brings condition removal. I don't PvP much, but I'd bet you only get a few seconds of use from blind before the target says something and the Monk fixes it. You can cover it to make it harder to kill, though, so it depends on how dedicated you are to keeping the target blind.

Block, on the other hand, requires Wild Blow or an enchantment removal spell, or at the very least an attack that is unblockable, to bypass. The difference here is that it's somewhat more difficult for your opponent to see it, having to watch for someone casting a block enchantment on you or you to use a block stance. Of course, as soon as they get blocked they know it's there and can react.

It's really just rock-paper-scissors, like the entirety of GW.

Nice post, and obviously there is more to GW than just rock-paper-scissor, but that applies to some of it of course. If not, we'd use random skills and be winning. Just pointing that out for the people who took your comment COMPLETELY literally o.o.

DIH49 · Mar 20, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

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Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Finally, on enchant removal, Order Of Apostasy. Grenth dervish. Corrupt Enchantment.
Shatter Storm. Mark Of Insecurity.

What guild are you in?

Thomas.knbk · Mar 20, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

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Originally Posted by DIH49

What guild are you in?

He has a bronze trim, and his last 5 guilds were top 50, so....

Lord Mendes · Mar 20, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

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Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

He has a bronze trim, and his last 5 guilds were top 50, so....

Me thinks [Meow]
12

God Apprentice · Mar 20, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

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Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

The problem is, it would be slightly more balanced if it costed 15 energy, on a 2 second cast, and had the same recharge, and glyph didn't exist, because monks wouldn't run it (RC prots would probably run it in ha in a 3 monk backline at the same robust spec, but they have 2 other monks picking up the slack for them in a theoretical return to 8-man HA). The really funny thing about glyph is, you can fake cast it and not spend any energy to fake cast it due to glyph mechanics. Glyph is a great skill since inspiration sucks shit now, but I would have rather seen the glyph buff had inspiration been left alone.

What's wrong with aegis is that it's every bit as powerful as a skill like guardian, but covers your whole team. It's on par with displacement, but displacement is a spirit, so it's easier to kill it, and displacement dies REALLY fast on its own.

And of course, you could use gaze or rend, but then you pretty much have to run a spike build, limiting build diversity.

Limiting the number of builds viable in a format makes for a game that is not that fun. It's also the same reason 3 way kill count maps are not fun, because a pressure team is probably not going to be able to score as many kills in 4 minutes as a spike team, meaning they'll probably lose, and should probably play spike. I'm all for spike builds, but the fact a pressure build is hampered a lot by aegis means the skill should be looked at, especially with the presence of glyph.

So basically you flip flop here. You say Aegis is overpowered, then that it wouldn't be as bad if Glyph didn't exist. So basically what you're saying is that Aegis is overpowered because you can Glyph it and get a free cast. The second thing I bolded is completely untrue. Just because people run Aegis does not mean you have to run a spike build. Like I said Aegis chains were around in old 8v8, and many a time did we come against a balance build and still could be beaten even chaining Aegis.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 20, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

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Originally Posted by God Apprentice

So basically you flip flop here. You say Aegis is overpowered, then that it wouldn't be as bad if Glyph didn't exist. So basically what you're saying is that Aegis is overpowered because you can Glyph it and get a free cast. The second thing I bolded is completely untrue. Just because people run Aegis does not mean you have to run a spike build. Like I said Aegis chains were around in old 8v8, and many a time did we come against a balance build and still could be beaten even chaining Aegis.

If the glyph didn't exist, it would be run by midliners, who had to make the commitment of going /mo, and would at best have 9 in prot. a 9 prot aegis is quite balanced, considering you have to make such a commitment.
With the glyph, it's now being run by guys with 14 in prot, for a 13 sec aegis, who don't have to make any kind of commitment because 2/3 of all monk builds has 14 prot anyway.
The glyph is overpowered, but it makes aegis a better skill too.

Thom Bangalter · Mar 20, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

aegis is broken by the fact that it's a skill that mindless eliminates pressure.

at any spec it's overpowered.

It's more overpowered with glyph.

elektra_lucia · Mar 20, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

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What guild are you in?

Doooooon't start that again. Sure the enchant removal might not of even been good that I listed, but I'm just saying it's there.

Anyways - PM'd and, for the others that didn't see the conversation we came to the conclusion shatter and drain works just fine.

------------

Bronze trim - meh, that doesn't need to be brought up further. I was stupid to bring it up, too. So for that I'm sorry. Franco went on about me being in HA only guilds, so yeah ~.~. No, not meow either. Tullers and kitsune always seemed cool though : ].

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aegis is broken by the fact that it's a skill that mindless eliminates pressure.

at any spec it's overpowered.

It's more overpowered with glyph.

Ok fair enough. Would 3 second cast make it fair, 4, 5? Maybe only 5 second duration on it? As I keep asking - at what point would it be fair?

God Apprentice · Mar 21, 2007, 12:14 AM // 00:14

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Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

If the glyph didn't exist, it would be run by midliners, who had to make the commitment of going /mo, and would at best have 9 in prot. a 9 prot aegis is quite balanced, considering you have to make such a commitment.
With the glyph, it's now being run by guys with 14 in prot, for a 13 sec aegis, who don't have to make any kind of commitment because 2/3 of all monk builds has 14 prot anyway.
The glyph is overpowered, but it makes aegis a better skill too.

Ok so how come way back in the day when the 3 monk backline existed (WoH, SB/Infuse, RC) some teams I saw ran their monks each with a copy of Aegis. It was very effective against IWAY and Ranger Spike back then, but that was a different meta. So how is it so different now? With three monks running it you still had a continuous Aegis unless you stopped the cast/removed it. Because the switch to 6, and a 2 monk backline it seemed people stopped running Aegis, even though with good positioning and Channeling you could get a decent return for it. Now since Halls itself has changing objectives, Channeling is no longer seen as that good, as teams are more spread out on altar caps. Your saying it would be run on midliners I don't agree so much with. While it can be, I found that teams from back then ran them on Monk/Mesmers who of course had Channeling.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 21, 2007, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Aegis chains from monks was not metagame back in the day. Also, now you're only using 2 monks to chain Aegis the majority of the time.

and Electra... I find it really, really, really funny that you named mark of instability as a counter. Whenever someone pulls something like that, I immediately stop taking them seriously.

And Aegis as a concept will almost never be balanced. It is either overpowered to the point where almost everyone runs it because it the easy button vs pressure, or its underpowered to the point where it isn't worth it and noone runs it. The fact about it is that it's passive defense, and passive defense should never be as good as active defense, simply because one requires skill to use. However, if Aegis gets nerfed too bad, it simply becomes another rit spirits or another paragon +19503 armor party buff.

Basically, passive defense that affects the entire party is almost never balanced. The only one I can think of that sees some (a pretty small amount) play but isn't overpowered is stand your ground.

Patccmoi · Mar 21, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

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Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Basically, passive defense that affects the entire party is almost never balanced. The only one I can think of that sees some (a pretty small amount) play but isn't overpowered is stand your ground.

And that's because it's conditional (i.e. the defense is passive but not always active).

For example, make Aegis only works when you're not moving, or even better when you ARE moving, and it become much more balanced. You could even lower the recharge to 25s so that 2 monks can truly keep it up at all time. Because it gives more ways around it and it's not such global protection.

Another fix i can see is making it Earshot range instead of Party-wise. It's not a big change (most of the people you want protted are in earshot) but it prevents monks from really falling back to Aegis and stay more in interrupt range.

I'm not convinced that the current Aegis is actually broken though, i'm kinda undecided on the subject. What i DO agree is that it is significantly easier to run an Aegis chain than more or less any other form of party defense against attackers.

God Apprentice · Mar 21, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

I did not say running Aegis chains was meta back then, but I did see some teams run it. Reworded.

elektra_lucia · Mar 21, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

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and Electra... I find it really, really, really funny that you named mark of instability as a counter. Whenever someone pulls something like that, I immediately stop taking them seriously.

Well you just made yourself look like a complete retard, as I did not say ''mark of instability'' as a counter. Perhaps you should try reading, mmmkay? In addition, if you read what was said before, and after - I made it clear that shatter enchant would work just fine. Before that point I also said ''basic enchant removal from mesmer''. Well, it's not too skillful to use, is it? Press t, shatter target. Also, I said Mark Of Insecurity and not Mark Of instability - Mark Of Insecurity is a hex spell on an assassin which makes enchants and stances expire 50% faster. So instead of shadow prison, you could run it (it's only 5 energy, 1 cast, 10 recharge). =). With two assassins, you could cast it a bit in a Hex build, and probably pull it off. Anyways, maybe I'll get some good players later, make a build with it and hold a ton if I can be bothered xD. Heaven forbid I'm not taken seriously from a person that can't read

.

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And Aegis as a concept will almost never be balanced. It is either overpowered to the point where almost everyone runs it because it the easy button vs pressure, or its underpowered to the point where it isn't worth it and noone runs it. The fact about it is that it's passive defense, and passive defense should never be as good as active defense, simply because one requires skill to use. However, if Aegis gets nerfed too bad, it simply becomes another rit spirits or another paragon +19503 armor party buff.

Your post is completely ridiculous because you do not know how to play or enchant remove, or interupt. Aegis isn't even close to being over powered.

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Basically, passive defense that affects the entire party is almost never balanced. The only one I can think of that sees some (a pretty small amount) play but isn't overpowered is stand your ground.

It's not like the opposing team is always going to be attacking all of your team, is it? They'll pick a target to kill - and they can kill it.

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What i DO agree is that it is significantly easier to run an Aegis chain than more or less any other form of party defense against attackers.

Well that's great and all, but a pointless statement. It may be easier to play IWAY, doesn't mean it's better than a balanced. Using the original IWAY just becuase, everyone knows it - not because I want an IWAY discussion.
SoA and Shielding hands = Good.
SoA and Gaurdian = Good.
I haven't met one good player (there might be one somewhere, :P) yet that has said aegis is over powered.

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Aegis chains from monks was not metagame back in the day. Also, now you're only using 2 monks to chain Aegis the majority of the time.

Maybe I'm mistaken but since you're bringing up the past - I thought people used to regularly bring profane on the e-surge mesmers ''back then''? In addition, Aegis worked on 8 people, now it's only working on 6, in HA. As the groups got smaller.

TLLOTS · Mar 21, 2007, 10:22 AM // 10:22

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Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Well you just made yourself look like a complete retard, as I did not say ''mark of instability'' as a counter. Perhaps you should try reading, mmmkay? In addition, if you read what was said before, and after - I made it clear that shatter enchant would work just fine. Before that point I also said ''basic enchant removal from mesmer''. Well, it's not too skillful to use, is it? Press t, shatter target. Also, I said Mark Of Insecurity and not Mark Of instability - Mark Of Insecurity is a hex spell on an assassin which makes enchants and stances expire 50% faster. So instead of shadow prison, you could run it (it's only 5 energy, 1 cast, 10 recharge). =). With two assassins, you could cast it a bit in a Hex build, and probably pull it off. Anyways, maybe I'll get some good players later, make a build with it and hold a ton if I can be bothered xD. Heaven forbid I'm not taken seriously from a person that can't read

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I think you had a better chance of being taken seriously if you had been talking about Mark of Instability.

elektra_lucia · Mar 21, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

In a hex build it works :]. With aegis expirering 50% faster, it allows an easy break in the chain to interupt the next.

Alleji · Mar 21, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Aegis isn't overpowered. I don't know where the trend to complain about it suddenly came from... I haven't met anyone who said aegis is OP when I was still playing. It didn't get a buff in the past 2 months, yet all of a sudden I see people on different forums screaming to remove aegis from the game.

:/

Do you want heal party and LoD removed too? And extinguish? Because they're "mindless"? Ok, then we'll have no counters to party-wide pressure and I'll start whining that party-wide pressure is imba and needs to be nerfed so everyone plays spike.

Patccmoi · Mar 21, 2007, 02:02 PM // 14:02

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Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

In a hex build it works :]. With aegis expirering 50% faster, it allows an easy break in the chain to interupt the next.

Honestly, no. Just stop trying to defend the skill cause this can honestly only hurt your credibility.

If it was an unlinked non-elite that you can just throw on anyone, fine. But if you're taking this as enchant removal ELITE, i can only consider that you're kinda retarded. Especially since Assassins already have extremely good enchant removal elite (Assault Enchant being arguably the most powerful enchant removal in the game atm, and Dark Apostasy being so-so because of 2s cast time but still infinitely more efficient and reliable than Mark). Or you can take Shatterstorm which will at least remove the enchant on the target you want to pressure. Or Corrupt Enchantment which has a very good ecost/cast time/recharge AND an interesting effect.

If you're considering using enchant removal elite, there's just so many options far far ahead of Mark of Insecurity, EVEN if you put 0 points in them (like Corrupt Enchant at 0 curses imo is > Mark of Insecurity). There's just no excuse to take such an unreliable elite that might end up doing nothing if it's stripped before Aegis hits. A single target tranquility hex isn't elite worthy. Not at all. And i gotta say the 50% stance duration is quite laughable too.

And btw, people brought things like Profane and Dom Mesmer before because, well, they had the room for it and it's harder with 6 people. But i'm not saying that Aegis is overpowered either, i'm not convinced it is atm. But i don't think it's meaningless to say that it's far easier to use than other options of similar value and effect (don't compare IWAY vs balanced cause it's just not the same comparing 2 builds than 2 skills. And also notice that IWAY was repeatedly nerfed because its ease to play yet being arguably efficient made it overly popular). It's much easier to have 2 monks chaining Aegis than have them throwing Guardians on every target all the time before the big hits land (and i'm not saying that this is a good strategy btw). Or to use Aegis than to make a good use of wards in a place infested by AOE. Aegis doesn't actually require much at all to use, it's just click and it's done, global protection for a while. It's far from uncounterable and that's why i'm not saying that it's necessarily overpowered atm, but i'm not a big fan of mindless options when they're so efficient. It's like SP/BoA sins, it's absolutely mindless yet it works which makes them infest everything and allows bad players to feel good =/ But again it's far from uncounterable too, but when there's too much easily usable mindless skills that have very powerful effect, it degenerates the gameplay.

elektra_lucia · Mar 21, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

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Honestly, no. Just stop trying to defend the skill cause this can honestly only hurt your credibility.

I think it hurt my credibility when I used consume on the warrior, until we won halls a load with it

. Regardless, I couldn't care less what someone thinks of me. I'm paid to play computer games (not GW) - are you? Right then. Stop talking about credibility, I don't look up to someone that doesn't make money from gaming. If he's good and he's not paid for it, then he's not so good that is was worth anything. If he isn't good, then why should I care what he thinks anyway.

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If it was an unlinked non-elite that you can just throw on anyone, fine. But if you're taking this as enchant removal ELITE, i can only consider that you're kinda retarded

I know a perfectly fast killing assassin bar that doesn't even require an elite. Using it on an assassin is not such a bad idea. Sure, if you were to use it on like a mesmer - then there's plenty more good skills. Elites arn't everything in this game.

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(Assault Enchant being arguably the most powerful enchant removal in the game atm, and Dark Apostasy being so-so because of 2s cast time but still infinitely more efficient and reliable than Mark)

We discussed this already, and I brought up those skills - so I need not comment on them further.

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There's just no excuse to take such an unreliable elite that might end up doing nothing if it's stripped before Aegis hits.

I said taking it in a hex build...

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And i gotta say the 50% stance duration is quite laughable too.

No, you don't have to say that and regardless, I clearly wasn't talking about using it for stances.

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And btw, people brought things like Profane and Dom Mesmer before because, well, they had the room for it and it's harder with 6 people.

There's still room for it, and no it's not any harder to press the button for profane than it ever was.

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But i don't think it's meaningless to say that it's far easier to use than other options of similar value and effect

This doesn't mean anything really.

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(don't compare IWAY vs balanced cause it's just not the same comparing 2 builds than 2 skills. And also notice that IWAY was repeatedly nerfed because its ease to play yet being arguably efficient made it overly popular).

I will compare what I like. Please don't try to dictate, I don't even know you. Had you of understood what I was saying, you'd of realised why I brought up IWAY.

For your information - people liked profane because it was nice to have up on the altar, and since there is no longer ''holding'' as we used to know it, there isn't such a need for profane.

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It's like SP/BoA sins, it's absolutely mindless yet it works which makes them infest everything and allows bad players to feel good =/

Bad players will feel good anyways, doesn't mean they are good. It's also not absolutely mindless, I've seen assassins kill themself on one SS necro. Doesn't mean they SHOULD do such a thing. Players with skill, will still play an assassin better than a player without skill; therefore, skill clearly has a baring on the outcome; therefore, you can't argue it's mindless.

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but i'm not a big fan of mindless options when they're so efficient

Yes it's real efficient when you can heal their whole spike with one 5 energy spell (RC).

Patrick Smit · Mar 21, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I spike doesnt come with so many conditions, one is an important one, and that is deep wound, crippled may be applied as well, but can be substituted by another snare, being it a knockdown or hex. I have not seen a lot of Restore Condition in GvG for a while (my experience just being from observe so call me a newbie). So i guess RC is not much of a life saver, otherwise it would be extensively used.

Lord Mendes · Mar 21, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

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Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I'm paid to play computer games (not GW) - are you?

Really? Care to explain what this job is?
I am not asking this because I am doubting you or find it funny/odd, just because I am really curious.