Curse

suiraCLAW · Mar 25, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Another "fix the skills of that completely underused and bad attribute line thread", this time we'll talk about Earth Magic, which is currently - in high end pvp - only used for defensive wards.

At the moment, earth magic is a mix of several things:
- Enchantments dedicated to tanking and reducing damage. While these skills do what they are meant to do, they aren't really useful in 8v8 (or 6v6). But since these skills are used in PvE, I wont change them.
- Wards dedicated to helping your allies. Like I said before, I believe that these skills are balanced and don't really need to change.
- DoT AoE spells (sandstorm, eruption, etc). They are hardly used since the damage is mediocre and - imo most important - they suffer from huge recharge times. Most of these skills are just bad, but some just suffer from the fact that earth magic doesn't really give you much utility (at all).
- Single target spells. The DPS of these spells is terrible and these skills don't give the utility we find in other elementalist attribute lines. Several of these spells are conditional.
- PB AoE spells. They offer some spiky damage (like shockwave) but they suffer from long recharges (read: bad DPS since you can't do anything while they're recharging) and because of the 2 second aftercast.
- Earthquake and it's duplicate. Earthquake used to be rather popular back in prophecies but because of buffs to other sources of damage/KD, these 2 skills are underpowered.
- Some slowdown hexes: grasping earth and iron mist. Since grasping earth is fine, I'll concentrate on iron mist which has atm a huge drawback.
- Obsidian Flame. "3...2...1...". Since it's a fine skill, I won't change it.
- Stone Sheath. Worst elite ever?

Fixes for the DoT Aoe group:

[skill]Churning Earth[/skill]
15/2/20
Spell. Create Churning Earth at target foe's location. For the next 5 seconds, Churning Earth strikes for 10...34 earth damage each second. When Churning Earth ends, enemies in the area of effect are crippled for 10 seconds.

This would make it comparable to Searing Heat...

[skill]Eruption[/skill]
25/2/20
Spell. Cause an Eruption at target foe's location. Each second for 5 seconds, foes near this location are struck for 10...34 earth damage and are Blinded for 10 seconds.

Minor drop in recharge.

[skill]Unsteady Ground[/skill]
15/2/30
Elite Spell. You create Unsteady Ground at target foe's location. For 10 seconds, nearby foes take 10...26 earth damage each second. Attacking foes struck by Unsteady Ground are knocked down.

Similar to sandstorm, but instead of double damage a 2 second knockdown.

[skill]Sandstorm[/skill]
Fine...

Fixes for single target DPS spells

[skill]Ebon Hawk[/skill]
10/1/4
Spell. If target foe suffers from Weakness, target foe takes 20...76 earth damage. Otherwise, target foe and all nearby foes suffers from Weakness for 6...12 seconds. If you hit a moving foe, that foe is crippled for 5 seconds.

Quite a huge change. DPS is comparable with a nec spamming jaundiced gaze. Cripple is comparable to freezing gust.

[skill]Glowstone[/skill]
5/1/7
Spell. Send out a fast moving projectile that strikes for 10...58 earth damage if it hits. If this Spell hits a weakened foe, you gain 1...7 Energy.

[skill]Ash Blast[/skill]
5/0.25/4
Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...24 earth damage. If Ash Blast strikes a knocked-down foe, that foe is Blinded for 3...13 seconds and takes an additional 10...24 damage.

or:

5/1/8
Spell. Target foe is struck for 20...48 earth damage and is Blinded for 3...13 seconds. If Ash Blast strikes a moving or attacking foe, you lose 7 (or 5) energy.

The first is still extremely conditional and gimmicky, but it gives you some nice sync options. The second one is less usefull, but it might give the attribute line more utility.

[skill]Stoning[/skill]
10/1/4
Spell. Send out a large stone, if it hits, target foe is struck for 15...87 earth damage and is knocked down. If Stoning hits a foe that is not suffering from Weakness, you suffer from exhaustion.

or:
10/1/4
Spell. Send out a large stone, if it hits, target foe is struck for 15...87 earth damage and is knocked down. If Stoning hits a foe that is not suffering from Weakness, you are dazed and blinded for 10 seconds (blind covers daze).

Earth magic really needs a (rather) unconditional KD.

[skill]Stone Daggers[/skill]
5/1/0
Spell. Send out two Stone Daggers. Each Stone Dagger strikes target foe for 8...28 earth damage if it hits. If a Stone Dagger strikes a foe casting a spell, that foe is dazed for 3 seconds.

Similar things could be done with flare/ice spear/lave arrows/shock arrows.

Fixes for PB AoE spells.

[skill]Aftershock[/skill]
5/1/10
Spell. If any foes nearby are knocked down, they take 36...141 earth damage. Otherwise, all adjacent foes are knocked down and you suffer from exhaustion.

or:

5/1/10
Spell. If any foes nearby are knocked down, they take 36...141 earth damage. Otherwise, all adjacent foes are knocked down and you are dazed and blinded for 5 seconds.

Earth magic needs those rather unconditional KD's IMO. + Since aftershocks (just like earthquakes) hit the feet, it's logical that you are knocked down.

[skill]Shockwave[/skill]
Halve recharge please.

At the moment its like: run up -> cast shockwave -> run back -> wait -> repeat. With a 10 secs recharge, you have a reason to stay close.

[skill]Crystal Wave[/skill] and clone
15/0.75/10
Spell. Foes nearby to target ally 10...82 damage, but are cured of any negative Conditions.

Ancestor's rage clone that has a bigger AoE but with a drawback.

Fix for
[skill]Earthquake[/skill] and clone
25/3/15
Spell. You invoke an Earthquake at target foe's location. All foes near this location are knocked down and are struck for 26...85 earth damage. If you hit a foe that was suffering from an elemental hex, you suffer from exhaustion.

It's still good, this would make it slightly better.

Fix for
[skill]Iron Mist[/skill]
10/1/5
Hex Spell. For 5...15 seconds, target foe moves 33% slower. If this hex is removed prematurely, that foe is knocked down.

Utility please...

Fix for
[skill]Stone Sheath[/skill]
5/1/10
Elite Hex Spell. For 10...30 seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes are affected by Stone Sheath. Foes affected by Stone Sheath attack and move 33% slower and their attacks deal earth damage.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 25, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Some of those would make for some extremely unbalanced skills (stone sheath + iron mist in a hex build would be rediculous, aftershock gets really spikey, etc.), however, I do agree that earth needs a change. ANet just needs to decide on one thing that the earth line should do, and not make it this huge comglomerate of random crap.

Vermilion · Mar 25, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

No Earth Djinns haste?

I guess there'd have to be Earth djinns..but a speed buff in the earth line would be nice.

Patrick Smit · Mar 25, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Stone daggers should be "nerfed" instead of adding things powerfull as dazed to it. 62 damage for a spell that can be spammed indefinitely is rediculous. Adding a conditional Dazed to it would make it really IMBA.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 25, 2007, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Stone daggers should be "nerfed" instead of adding things powerfull as dazed to it. 62 damage for a spell that can be spammed indefinitely is rediculous. Adding a conditional Dazed to it would make it really IMBA.

62 dmg per 1.75 seconds for is not imba.
If you added 3 secs of daze, it would be imba.

Bankai · Mar 25, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Ash Blast[/skill]
5/0.25/4
Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...24 earth damage. If Ash Blast strikes a knocked-down foe, that foe is Blinded for 3...13 seconds and takes an additional 10...24 damage.

or:

5/1/8
Spell. Target foe is struck for 20...48 earth damage and is Blinded for 3...13 seconds. If Ash Blast strikes a moving or attacking foe, you lose 7 (or 5) energy.

I'd go for this:
5/1/8
Spell. Target foe is struck for 20...48 damage. If Ash Blast strikes a knocked-down foe, that foe and all nearby foes are Blinded for 3...13 seconds.

That way you can shutdown a whole train for a few seconds, making it worthwhile to take into battle.

Shmanka · Mar 26, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Earth always seemed to be jack of all trades, and sucked beyond belief. I likes sandstorm... got me alot of fame... made earth magic highly looked at overall...

Patrick Smit · Mar 26, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

62 dmg per 1.75 seconds for is not imba.
If you added 3 secs of daze, it would be imba.

Thats what we agree upon (as said before by me). I just said its a rediculous spell as it is now. All these invinci tanks do quite some damage with this crap while its difficult to bring em down as the first person (usually they go down last). It makes an annying noice, and is difficult to kite/dodge from. I prefer that they either lower the damage to what it was originally, they put some recharge on the best option may be to increase the arc (more curved), allowing u to dodge it more often. I always have the feeling that this spell has a quite nice arc so it hardly ever misses, but maybe its just me.

Riotgear · Mar 26, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Similar to sandstorm, but instead of double damage a 2 second knockdown.

Just so you're aware, the default time for knockdowns is 2 seconds. And unconditional KDs are not something I'd like to see available on the cheap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Thats what we agree upon (as said before by me). I just said its a rediculous spell as it is now. All these invinci tanks do quite some damage with this crap while its difficult to bring em down as the first person (usually they go down last).

Stone Daggers does as much damage as Flare, which isn't much. Earth tanks are a bad build which is neutered by interrupts/KDs or any degree of enchant removal. If you're going to attempt to make an argument about balance, mentioning what is a borderline griefing build is not a good place to start.

Patrick Smit · Mar 26, 2007, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Riot gear, it was not as much that I intended to bring down these builds. But I reacted on the opinion of the OP to add a conditional daze effect to stone daggers. I responded with: that is IMBA, they better nerf it then boost it. All forget I said something about the nerf part, the IMBA is/was the essence of my first post. Giving this conditional daze would be horrific and will make these kinds of builds more horrible then they already are. Instead of being lowest priority they may turn out high priority, and not an easy one, other sources of Daze are much more easy to handle. Even when not in a tanking build, the conditional Daze would be horrifying (FC mesmer :S ). Especially as these projectiles land shortly after eachother.

Well it must be clear what i think about such a buff of this earth spell.

suiraCLAW · Mar 26, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

@Patrick Smit

I disagree that enchantments tanks are overpowered in pvp, even if they can actually spam a skill with a nice side effect: would you ever run one instead of a shutdown character, extra serious damage dealer that is capable of spiking (or a combination of these)?

The main point of such threads is just to give some ideas. Stone daggers might become overpowered, but I would certainly such a condition (if x happens, target suffers from y ) instead of a damage modification.

Maybe change the conditions (weakness or bleeding), reduce the duration of the daze to 1 sec or forget the idea (we don't need such skills).

Quote:

stone sheath + iron mist in a hex build would be ridiculous

This kinda surprised me since the skills were designed to be better as stand alone hexes than in a hex environment. Some small example (people might hate me because of this style of arguing...):

Imagine that your guild wants to run a hex heavy build, you already designed several characters of the build:
- 2 melee (2 melandru dervish with rending sweep)
- 1 Migraine Mesmer
- 1 Reaper Necromancer
- 2 Monk Back line (SoD prot + Healers Boon healer)
- ZB runner monk

In your last character slot you can consider several stuff:
- More melee: more damage, spike and for splitting.
- A SV nec: more degen and more shutdown.
- A tainted nec: more degen, minions and support.
- A burning arrow ranger: more degen, interrupts and for splitting.
- A barbed arrows/poison arrow ranger: even more degen, interrupts.
- A dom mesmer: shutdown, spike and utility.
And, with these buffs,
- (Stone sheat/)iron mist earth ele, probably with wards, support skills and stuff like a ebon hawk/stoning combo: defense/support, shutdown, minor damage and some utility.

What I want to say is: the other possibilities are so good that you need such - near overpowered - skills to make a difference. Still, with the skills I listed in my first post, I don't think it would make earth eles stronger or more used than the other possibilities.

Back to Iron mist, that skill was only designed as a useful hex against melee. To elaborate this: from a warrior point of view, I'd rather have a water ele that snares exactly the people I want for 66% than somebody who can snare 2 people at the same time, but at 33%. But from a monk point of view, it's the other way around: 33% for a longer duration is more interesting.

For those who skipped the last part and magically restart reading here: iron mist should be the anti-melee counterpart of the (IMO) offensive freezing gust.

Quote:

aftershock gets really spikey

This statement kinda confuses me, the damage versus knocked down foes stays the same. The only notable change for a spike team would be the slightly larger radius.

Quote:

Just so you're aware, the default time for knockdowns is 2 seconds. And unconditional KDs are not something I'd like to see available on the cheap.

I knew that default knockdowns last 2 seconds. Unconditional KDs are always tricky, but I believe that most of the skills listed have a mayor drawback...

Patccmoi · Mar 26, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Not agreeing a lot with what's been said overall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Churning Earth[/skill]
15/2/20
Spell. Create Churning Earth at target foe's location. For the next 5 seconds, Churning Earth strikes for 10...34 earth damage each second. When Churning Earth ends, enemies in the area of effect are crippled for 10 seconds.

This would make it comparable to Searing Heat...

You put it 10s faster recharge than Searing Heat. If anything it's more comparable to Searing + Teinai's together... I actually prefer the current effect to what you suggest personally, it's quite useful say in relic runs in HA, or in GvG it could likely screw up flag runners too. But considering it's meant to catch people, i'd rather see it 15/1/25 or 10/2/25 for stats. The 3s cast seriously hurts its purpose, and i agree that 30s cooldown is too long. However, i think that 20s for those fair damage Nearby AOE (Searing, Teinai's, Eruption, Churning...) is actually too low in general when you consider that there can be QZ or WoQuickening used. I think that 25s would be fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Eruption[/skill]
25/2/20
Spell. Cause an Eruption at target foe's location. Each second for 5 seconds, foes near this location are struck for 10...34 earth damage and are Blinded for 10 seconds.

Minor drop in recharge.

Imo, Eruption is already a VERY good skill, it's a Dust Trap you can shoot. The energy cost is worth it, and the recharge is seriously fine. I don't think it needs any kind of buff, it's one of the few actually good earth skills that isn't a ward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Unsteady Ground[/skill]
15/2/30
Elite Spell. You create Unsteady Ground at target foe's location. For 10 seconds, nearby foes take 10...26 earth damage each second. Attacking foes struck by Unsteady Ground are knocked down.

Similar to sandstorm, but instead of double damage a 2 second knockdown.

I prefer a shorter recharge than a longer duration by far personally. Personally what i'd add is 'foes in unsteady ground move 33% slower'. Add a minor snare to it and it'd be elite worthy, and it seems to fit with the skill too. The energy cost, recharge and damage are fine, the effect is just not good enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Ebon Hawk[/skill]
10/1/4
Spell. If target foe suffers from Weakness, target foe takes 20...76 earth damage. Otherwise, target foe and all nearby foes suffers from Weakness for 6...12 seconds. If you hit a moving foe, that foe is crippled for 5 seconds.

All it needs is 1s cast. There's no need to change the functionality as it's already very decent (nearly 100% sure weakness on attackers since they're either moving or attacking 95% of the time) on top of nice damage. The 2s cast just makes it unwieldy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Glowstone[/skill]
5/1/7
Spell. Send out a fast moving projectile that strikes for 10...58 earth damage if it hits. If this Spell hits a weakened foe, you gain 1...7 Energy.

I think the damage is fine considering it's an emanagement skill. It's the same as Glowing Gaze. All it needs is to be a very fast projectile (or not a projectile at all). And with something like an improved Ebon Hawk with 1s cast to have more reliable weakness inducing, it'd be good. I think the main of the skill isn't really what it does but mostly that weakness is harder to apply in general when you compare it to Glowing Gaze where most fire skills can cause burning (especially if you use Mark which isn't too bad now).

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Ash Blast[/skill]

Personally i'd do:

5/.75/8 or 10/.75/5
Target foe takes 20..48..57 earth damaage and suffers from weakness for 3..13..16 seconds. If Ash Blast strikes a knocked-down foe, that foe is Blinded instead.

Earth requires more Weakness inducers for Stoning, Glowing Gaze, etc. If earth becomes the 'weakness causing + kd + wards' line, then it has some focus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Stoning[/skill]

Imo Stoning doesn't need a change if earth can just get decent weakness inducers. What makes Stoning unwieldy atm is that you have to go pick skills you'd just wouldn't want at all otherwise (go through hoops as Ensign'd say) so that it's decent. If other interesting Earth skills that you'd want cause weakness, then Stoning is a great skill and doesn't need a change. You're turning it in a gale dealing damage that has a way to bypass exhaustion atm and that's way too good imo. The kd should be counterable by condition removal, otherwise it becomes far too powerful imo, since say you get 2/3 with weakness on them, then the exhaustion will build very slowly but you'll still knock them all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Stone Daggers[/skill]
5/1/0
Spell. Send out two Stone Daggers. Each Stone Dagger strikes target foe for 8...28 earth damage if it hits. If a Stone Dagger strikes a foe casting a spell, that foe is dazed for 3 seconds.

Similar things could be done with flare/ice spear/lave arrows/shock arrows.

No. Those skills are already actually decent. They're simply lame because you don't have enough skill slot to warrant picking something doing nothing but DPS (while physicals have auto-attack which doesn't require a skill slot). If anything, Stoning, Flare and Ice Spear should be some kind of wand 'auto-cast' you can turn on and off depending if you want to use energy or not so that casters have a way to DPS without using a skill slot. But their effect is fine now, the damage is decent, and it's just a DPS skill. Causing Daze with Stone Dagger would be quite ridiculous imo. If you want to add some utility to those spamming skill, i'd do something like 'Stone Dagger/Flare/Ice Spear/Shock Arrow has 1..13..17% chances of causing weakness for 5..10s/burning for 1..3s/66% snare for 1..3s/blind for 1..5s'. So that by spamming them you get an interesting effect out of them once in a while, and it should happen often enough if you spam. But... i'm not sure it's good to promote spamming 1 skill forever.

Fixes for PB AoE spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Aftershock[/skill]

I'd leave it as is, but be 'if they're knocked down they take +damage, otherwise they suffer from weakness for 5..10s'. Makes sense with an aftershock (should make you buckle your knees a bit!), would help defensively (warriors rush on you, aftershock for defense, etc.) and would add yet again some more weakness to earth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Shockwave[/skill]
Halve recharge please.

At the moment its like: run up -> cast shockwave -> run back -> wait -> repeat. With a 10 secs recharge, you have a reason to stay close.

Not sure i would, it's already quite strong. Does some very strong spikes along with Aftershock. Maybe add 'adjacent foes suffering from weakness are knocked down'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Crystal Wave[/skill] and clone
15/0.75/10
Spell. Foes nearby to target ally 10...82 damage, but are cured of any negative Conditions.

Armor ignoring spike that can be targetted on ally with Nearby AOE? Not sure i'd like that. Even if it's remove conditions it would still be one hell of a spike skill, and i wouldn't actually want to promote earth spiking even more... Make it Nearby AOE and make them lose 1 condition instead of all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Earthquake[/skill] and clone
25/3/15
Spell. You invoke an Earthquake at target foe's location. All foes near this location are knocked down and are struck for 26...85 earth damage. If you hit a foe that was suffering from an elemental hex, you suffer from exhaustion.

Why are you punishing people from using elemental hex...? Mostly the condition is waaaay too easily met (don't use elemental hex. Hrm, ok, it's not like they're absolutely required anywhere! Trust me a dual atune Me/E with 2 copies of EQuake and hell maybe AEcho would be there somewhere) Imo Earthquake is fine overall, mostly uninteresting because Earth as a whole isn't and when people go earth they want OFlame cause nothing else is interesting offensively and OFlame + EQuake forces GoE cause of exhaustion. If that changed (tweaks to Ebon Hawk and Glowstone could definitely help there), then you could use your exhaustion on Earthquake. I wouldn't risk buffing that atm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Fix for
[skill]Iron Mist[/skill]
10/1/5
Hex Spell. For 5...15 seconds, target foe moves 33% slower. If this hex is removed prematurely, that foe is knocked down.

Utility please...

It's already utility, it offers a very strong snare practically immobilizing a target. The 'only lightning damage' prevents DoT AOE stacks since Lightning has none. All physicals can turn to lightning weapon easily if you know you're going to use it. Personally I'd just lower duration and recharge, make it something like:

10/2/20, for 5..10s target foe moves 90% slower and can only take damage from lightning. Then it's more usable when you need it then having a long 30s recharge. In general in PvP low duration/low recharge hexes are much more interesting and viable than long duration/long recharge which only see play in some gimmicky builds. Just like stances too, and this is why Tactics was reworked so much last patch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

[skill]Stone Sheath[/skill]
5/1/10
Elite Hex Spell. For 10...30 seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes are affected by Stone Sheath. Foes affected by Stone Sheath attack and move 33% slower and their attacks deal earth damage.

The cripple is just too much imo. I'd rather do something like:

10/1/5. For 10..30 seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes attack 33% slower, deal earth damage and cannot achieve a critical hit.

Then it's some kind of elite Shadow of Fear with 1s cast time, lower attack speed reduction but can't crit and earth damage (for what that's worth). Just adding 33% slower would actually turn it into a viable defensive hex cause the non-crit is actually quite decent, people don't really realize how much this does. Kiting against warriors and especially Dervishes is MUCH less painful. I'd seriously consider this as an option for anti-melee elite if it was like that. Along with decent weakness inducers and wards, an Earth ele would be a strong anti-melee defense with various tools to do it requiring different counters from the other team and could possibly assist the offense a bit too with Ebon Hawk, Stoning, etc. I'd be good utility to have on a team.

elektra_lucia · Mar 26, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Stone Sheath is fine... Just run mantra of earth on your casters (if you can keep it up).

Quote:

At the moment its like: run up -> cast shockwave -> run back -> wait -> repeat. With a 10 secs recharge, you have a reason to stay close.

And with arcane echo that's over powered I would think...

Quote:

Stone Sheath. Worst elite ever?

It is good if you make a build around it :].

Like I said before, mantra of earth - stone sheath - lots of energy :].

XvArchonvX · Mar 26, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Stone Sheath is fine... Just run mantra of earth on your casters (if you can keep it up).

And with arcane echo that's over powered I would think...

It is good if you make a build around it :].

Like I said before, mantra of earth - stone sheath - lots of energy :].

...or just save your elite and run [skill]Stone Striker[/skill].

I agree that Stone Daggers is weak, but it's because it's a simplistic skill, just like Flare and Ice Spear. These skills are really just here for people who are learning the profession in PvE imo. Making it a cheap spammable daze is way overpowered imo.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 26, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

This kinda surprised me since the skills were designed to be better as stand alone hexes than in a hex environment. Some small example (people might hate me because of this style of arguing...):

Imagine that your guild wants to run a hex heavy build, you already designed several characters of the build:
- 2 melee (2 melandru dervish with rending sweep)
- 1 Migraine Mesmer
- 1 Reaper Necromancer
- 2 Monk Back line (SoD prot + Healers Boon healer)
- ZB runner monk

In your last character slot you can consider several stuff:
- More melee: more damage, spike and for splitting.
- A SV nec: more degen and more shutdown.
- A tainted nec: more degen, minions and support.
- A burning arrow ranger: more degen, interrupts and for splitting.
- A barbed arrows/poison arrow ranger: even more degen, interrupts.
- A dom mesmer: shutdown, spike and utility.
And, with these buffs,
- (Stone sheat/)iron mist earth ele, probably with wards, support skills and stuff like a ebon hawk/stoning combo: defense/support, shutdown, minor damage and some utility.

What I want to say is: the other possibilities are so good that you need such - near overpowered - skills to make a difference. Still, with the skills I listed in my first post, I don't think it would make earth eles stronger or more used than the other possibilities.

Back to Iron mist, that skill was only designed as a useful hex against melee. To elaborate this: from a warrior point of view, I'd rather have a water ele that snares exactly the people I want for 66% than somebody who can snare 2 people at the same time, but at 33%. But from a monk point of view, it's the other way around: 33% for a longer duration is more interesting.

For those who skipped the last part and magically restart reading here: iron mist should be the anti-melee counterpart of the (IMO) offensive freezing gust.

I would definitely run Stone Sheath/Iron Mist on a hybrid earth runner in a hex build like that, giving me the ability to maintain a 33% slow + extra cover on their ENTIRE TEAM if I can get some AoE hits on Stone Sheath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

This statement kinda confuses me, the damage versus knocked down foes stays the same. The only notable change for a spike team would be the slightly larger radius.

That was me being retarded, don't worry about it. I apparently wasn't fully coherent when I wrote that.

Riotgear · Mar 27, 2007, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Stone Sheath is fine... Just run mantra of earth on your casters (if you can keep it up).

No, it's not fine, the effect is worse than Shadow of Fear yet it takes three times as long to recharge. It would be a skill of questionable usefulness if it WASN'T an elite.

Give it some combination of a lower recharge, an attack speed debuff, an attack damage debuff, and/or an increased recharge time on attack skills.

suiraCLAW · Mar 27, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

You put it 10s faster recharge than Searing Heat. If anything it's more comparable to Searing + Teinai's together... I actually prefer the current effect to what you suggest personally, it's quite useful say in relic runs in HA, or in GvG it could likely screw up flag runners too. But considering it's meant to catch people, i'd rather see it 15/1/25 or 10/2/25 for stats. The 3s cast seriously hurts its purpose, and i agree that 30s cooldown is too long. However, i think that 20s for those fair damage Nearby AOE (Searing, Teinai's, Eruption, Churning...) is actually too low in general when you consider that there can be QZ or WoQuickening used. I think that 25s would be fine.

I didn't really consider WoQ (or QZ), thus I can agree with a 25 sec recharge. Still, I dislike the current effect a lot, this is a matter of opinion though.

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I prefer a shorter recharge than a longer duration by far personally. Personally what I'd add is 'foes in unsteady ground move 33% slower'. Add a minor snare to it and it'd be elite worthy, and it seems to fit with the skill too. The energy cost, recharge and damage are fine, the effect is just not good enough.

No offense, but I can't think of a single situation where I would use that skill instead of, say, Savannah heat (+ gale), sandstorm or dual searing heat (these aren't run often anyway). 33% movement reduction in a small arena alone doesn't, IMHO, turn a normal DoT AoE skill into an elite one.

Still, the idea is certainly useful and would mean a huge buff for the skill and tbh I need to admit that it would make it a more unique skill than "mine" (it isn't really mine anyway).

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All it needs is 1s cast. There's no need to change the functionality as it's already very decent (nearly 100% sure weakness on attackers since they're either moving or attacking 95% of the time) on top of nice damage. The 2s cast just makes it unwieldy.

Even with a one second cast, I can't see myself bringing it. IMO, it really needs to be non-projectile and(/or) be a fast, unconditional source of weakness. It's true that the current ebon hawk will apply weakness to melee, but since you will want to use stoning/glowstone on soft targets it just isn't enough.

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Originally Posted by patccmoi

suggestions about glowstone and ash blast

I can agree with you here.

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Imo Stoning doesn't need a change if earth can just get decent weakness inducers. What makes Stoning unwieldy atm is that you have to go pick skills you'd just wouldn't want at all otherwise (go through hoops as Ensign'd say) so that it's decent. If other interesting Earth skills that you'd want cause weakness, then Stoning is a great skill and doesn't need a change. You're turning it in a gale dealing damage that has a way to bypass exhaustion atm and that's way too good imo. The kd should be counterable by condition removal, otherwise it becomes far too powerful imo, since say you get 2/3 with weakness on them, then the exhaustion will build very slowly but you'll still knock them all the time.

My suggestion was indeed to turn stoning into a gale that is a projectile (thus it can be dodged and is less useful for interrupting) with a damage component that can evade exhaustion. Because, IMHO, if you want to give earth even near the utility of air/water you need such a skill.

It's completely true that Stoning suffers from no competent weakness causing skills, still I can't believe that would be enough. As long as you can counter the KD without too much problems, stoning won't be used.

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Dagger/Flare/Ice Spear/Shock Arrow has 1..13..17% chances of causing weakness for 5..10s/burning for 1..3s/66% snare for 1..3s/blind for 1..5s'.

I hate random stuff since it promotes luck (especially if a quite powerful effect can happen)...

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Originally Posted by patccmoi

suggestion for aftershock

That would be a nice improvement. Still, the main reason to use it would only be when they're knockeddown, combine that with the fact that stoning is the only earth skill that can cause a KD fast enough (earthquake doesn't count since nobody would be near you when you finish it) and you get a small paradox (or was that the objective?).

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Originally Posted by patccmoi

suggestion for shockwave

Reconsidering it, that would indeed be better (read: more balanced) than my suggestion.

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Armor ignoring spike that can be targetted on ally with Nearby AOE? Not sure i'd like that. Even if it's remove conditions it would still be one hell of a spike skill, and i wouldn't actually want to promote earth spiking even more... Make it adjancent AOE and make them lose 1 condition instead of all.

It kinda ashames me that I didn't notice that it might be abused for spiking. Anyway: to prevent it from being used as a spike skill, it might be better to reduce the damage instead of reducing the aoe a bit.

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Comments about earhtquake

Perhaps you're right. Earthquake would, indeed, be perfectly balanced if earth magic as whole would be - finally - balanced.

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It's already utility, it offers a very strong snare practically immobilizing a target. The 'only lightning damage' prevents DoT AOE stacks since Lightning has none. All physicals can turn to lightning weapon easily if you know you're going to use it. Personally I'd just lower duration and recharge, make it something like:

10/2/20, for 5..10s target foe moves 90% slower and can only take damage from lightning. Then it's more usable when you need it then having a long 30s recharge. In general in PvP low duration/low recharge hexes are much more interesting and viable than long duration/long recharge which only see play in some gimmicky builds. Just like stances too, and this is why Tactics was reworked so much last patch.

The problem with the current iron mist is that it's only worth in very few situations (like versus flaggers), in which case iron mist will be either removed extremely fast or you really need your melandru derv/grenth derv/mesmers/non-air ele's to do any damage.

I do agree that hexes should be short lasting/short recharge, that's exactly why I dropped the recharge and the snare effect...

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10/1/5. For 10..30 seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes attack 33% slower, deal earth damage and cannot achieve a critical hit.

Annother possibility, although it's a bit of a one-trick pony (don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with skills that do what they are meant to do).

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Basically, I'd agree with all your buffs, but IMO it's not a good strategy to buff 2 or 3 skills and hoping that by doing this the other - unused - skills in the line would be taken because of sync options (I don't want to be rude, but you kinda said that the whole problem of earth is that ebon hawk is a 2 second cast and that ash blast should weaken). Still, if I was the skill balancer I would probably follow that tactic.

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I would definitely run Stone Sheath/Iron Mist on a hybrid earth runner in a hex build like that, giving me the ability to maintain a 33% slow + extra cover on their ENTIRE TEAM if I can get some AoE hits on Stone Sheath.

First of all, it confuses me that you're talking about a runner. If you want him to run once in a while, there's no way he would have the time to keep one guy slowed down (trying to slow everybody would be even more of a nightmare).

I would certainly consider such a earth (hybrid) ele but I wouldn't use that build always. Tbh, I really believe it would become another build in that row that can be used, but that isn't always better than the other choises. Still, this is probably a matter of personal opinion (I'd like to hear the voices of other people that have experience with making gvg builds).

This case is kinda like when anet anounced grents grasp, several people said that it would be overpowerd since a ranger could use it to keep half of a team crippled + poisoned while interrupting. Still, I haven't seen a grenth's grasp ranger in a long time since there are just that much other options.

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... And with arcane echo that's over powered I would think...

With arcane echo you'd be able to use shockwave twice more every 50 seconds. That is bad.

Patccmoi · Mar 27, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

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Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Basically, I'd agree with all your buffs, but IMO it's not a good strategy to buff 2 or 3 skills and hoping that by doing this the other - unused - skills in the line would be taken because of sync options (I don't want to be rude, but you kinda said that the whole problem of earth is that ebon hawk is a 2 second cast and that ash blast should weaken). Still, if I was the skill balancer I would probably follow that tactic.

Actually, if you look at all the skill changes i proposed as a whole, there's a lot more than 2-3 skill buffs. It's reworking earth so that it has a clear purpose which is anti-attacker through weakness, wards and hexes (Grasping Earth + Stone Sheat) with kd assists and some dds on the offense.

Basically, you'd have the weakness inducers:

Ash blast
Ebon Hawk
Aftershock (conditional)

2 of those are direct and easy to use, and offer some extra use (Ebon Hawk is dd but weakens mostly against attackers, Ash Blast can weaken any target straight but dd is lower, and can blind if you knock instead).

And you got the skills using weakness:

Stoning (kd)
Glowstone (emanagement)
Shockwave (kd)

You can use a mix of those to supply a good offensive AND defensive support. Then you can add either more general defense (wards, hexes, Eruption), self-defense (all the armor of X), spike skill (OFlame, Aftershock) or AOE pressure (Eruption, Sandstorm, Churning, etc.), more emanagement, etc.

You can have a very well balanced bar that will be versatile and useful in many situations, able to damage, knockdown, do some party protection through wards or debuffs, etc.

You could think of something like

Ebon Hawk
Stoning
Glowstone
Ash Blast
Earth Atunement
Ward against Foes
Stone Sheat
Rez Signet

Just a random bar, but with this you could cause weakness and blind fairly regulary, or weakness + knockdown casters, you got a decent spike/offense support if you throw Ebon Hawk, Ash Blast, Glowstone and Stoning on casters, a good ward + hex against attackers making good melee control, etc. Versatile bar that could assist offense or defense as required in various ways requiring various counters from the other team.

You don't need to rework skills altogether for Earth magic to work. You just gotta give it some purpose and skill synergy. Not do some 'oh, let's make glowstone work with weakness' and then put 1 crappy weakness inducer in earth cause then it only looks like some random ****. It's as if they put Glowing Gaze in fire and the only skill causing burning was Incendiary Bonds, it would make Glowing Gaze suck cause of the lack of synergy.

So honestly, ya, i think that just adding weakness to Ash Blast and 1s cast to Ebon Hawk alone would make a huge different in Earth's viability. The rest is just to add some more interesting synergy and fix some quite useless skills (like Stone Sheat. I mean the idea with Mantra of Earth is fun in PvE, but you can't actually rely on an elite hex that has a 15s recharge to use this in PvP).