Curse

elektra_lucia · Mar 23, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Boon signet should heal for 60 at 13 divine and a recharge of 3 not 5. At the moment it's a completely worthless elite.

Offering of blood should be 12 second recharge, 10% sac. 18 enegy not 15 at 9 blood.

Gaurdian should be 3/4 second cast.

Divine boon:

It should heal for 65 at 14 divine and not 57. You should lose only one energy per cast not 2 (maybe even 0).

Blessed light should be 4 second recharge not 5.

Inspired hex:

At 9 inspire, you should get 12 energy and not 8. It should only last for 15 seconds and not 20. At the moment inspired hex is neither a good hex removal or energy management tool.

Drain enchantment should give you 19 energy not 14 at 9 inspire.

Energy drain should give you 2.5 energy per instead of 2.

Channeling should last 45 seconds not 37 with 9 inspire and should have 1/4 cast not 1.

Patccmoi · Mar 23, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Hmm, i wonder WHAT monk build those changes would lead to...

Feeling nostalgic or something?

Basically every change in there are just going to make some new doubt-it'll-be-balanced boon-prot.

I'm not sure the old boon-prot really needed the nerf it got, but i'm pretty sure it didn't need a buff.

elektra_lucia · Mar 23, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Feeling nostalgic or something?

Yes XD.

Well, there has been more expansions since boon prot. So, the ultimate goal was to at least have boon prot viable and not completely forgotten about... At the moment what seems to happen, something gets nerfed so much so that it isn't even used anymore.

Maybe I over did it, but it could at least be changed enough so that someome could think ''hey should we bring a prot and a healer, or two boon prots?''.

Patccmoi · Mar 23, 2007, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I actually have ex guildies that designed a new boon-prots and are using it efficiently. I tried it in RA/TA personally and it goes very well too, with better emanagement than it ever had before. It's slightly fragile though since enchant removal hurts it a lot with the new boon, etc. I won't give the setup as it's not mine, but it's still possible to use a boon-prot decently atm.

The main problem i see with what you propose is that you suggest to buff totally fine skills (OoB is fine, what you suggest makes it nearly EProd level. Channeling doesn't need any kind of buff at all) in order to make one build incredible without really considering the impact those skills would have out of this setup.

And i can't say i'm really for supporting any buff to monk-friendly energy management. Monks already have such incredible skill bars atm that i don't want them to have even more energy to use it.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 23, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

To make boon viable, simply reduce the recharge on boon, maybe increase the healing a bit, and do a overall minor buff to the inspiration line. That would be enough, you don't need to go overboard.

suiraCLAW · Mar 23, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

For boon signet, I'd rather buff the cast time to 0.25 (or even instant, like signet of stamina) that can only be used on self than trying to make it a competent heal...

elektra_lucia · Mar 23, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Well I've read a lot of threads where people have said GoLE is over powered. I thought with channeling buffed, it'd give people more of the option GoLE or channeling... I prefer channeling anyway, and can use it as it is - but people have implied it's under powered compared to GoLE.

I think my comment about inspired hex is pretty fair.

Offering of Blood, hmm... Thing is, you wouldn't really use it as energy management on a necro (they have enough). So although it'd appear over powered on them, it wouldn't really...

You might use it on another class; however, as it is - it's not powerful enough to warrent being used that often.

I know some boon prot builds, sure they work in RA but they suffer in bigger groups (6 or 8man).

I must say I'm kind of shocked to this, having read everywhere that Aegis and GoLE are over powered. This would give another option to monking. As I said though, I've probably over done it but still. It's an idea :].

kvndoom · Mar 23, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Personally, I'd like to see Monks go away. With some luck, this will happen in GW2, with races instead of classes.

Anet made a mistake by revolving the entire game around one class. Monks are what they are because few classes have a decent self heal. Each class should have been given a means to heal itself as well as do what it was designed for (damage, disruption, whatever). Guild Wars' game imbalances come from skill damage being weighed against the amount of healing one distinct class can offer.

Monks should have been able to Smite (do damage), Protect (reduce damage taken, but not heal for exorbitant amounts), de-hex, remove conditions, et al, but not be the primary source of healing in the entire game.

When you watch the average GVG, and 2 of 8 players (25%) or 3 of 8 players (38%) are one class, on each side, in every single match, then that class is too entrenched as the axis the game revolves around.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 23, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Offering of blood should be 12 second recharge, 10% sac. 18 enegy not 15 at 9 blood.

Offering of Blood is already a viable elite in some builds. This would make it viable in all builds, but overpowered in some. Much like what happened to GoLE imo.
Blessed Light is fine.

I agree on Guardian, Inspired Hex, Drain Enchantment and Channeling. I think Divine Boon just needs to be restored to its old state, and I have no idea what to think of Boon Signet.

Symbol · Mar 23, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Anet made a mistake by revolving the entire game around one class. Monks are what they are because few classes have a decent self heal. Each class should have been given a means to heal itself as well as do what it was designed for (damage, disruption, whatever). Guild Wars' game imbalances come from skill damage being weighed against the amount of healing one distinct class can offer.

No, monks are prevalent because classes don't have a way to heal others. Giving classes efficient self heals only helps vs undirected pressure, it doesn't help vs spikes and things like melee trains or any sort of focused damage.

Anti Oath · Mar 23, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Personally, I'd like to see Monks go away. With some luck, this will happen in GW2, with races instead of classes.

Where did you get this information from?

kvndoom · Mar 23, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti Oath

Where did you get this information from?

It's just a guess and wishful thinking, hence "with some luck." What I'm hoping is that each race will have access to all skills at all times but will be better at some things than other races. Like say, one particular race has attack bonuses but speed penalties, things like that. I think D&D has a similar race system, though I haven't played that in decades. But no more skills tied to class; no more primary / secondary. Everyone can use everything, but how well you use it depends on your class.

Right now I think Rits are where Monks should be. They can heal, they can protect, they can do damage, but not to such a ridiculous degree on any front (took a lot of balancing to get them here though). They lack hex removal, though. And their very best skills are conditional (spirits or items), so they are a challenge to play, but very rewarding. And weapon spells don't stack, unlike enchantments, which is something else I like about Rits.

Vermilion · Mar 24, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

I'm disappointed. No change to mantra of recall makes me sad.

Anyways, did you really just buff Ihex past what it was prenerf? craziness.

I don't mind a lot of the suggested changes that much, but I just like the general state of monks atm. I have my reasons. <.<

BlackEagle · Mar 24, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

I think those changes would be too much, but maybe a small buff to some of those skills would be good. I think that the buff you suggested to OoB would be far too strong, cos it's already used still, so to buff it to that extent wouldn't work imo. I think buffing ihex would be nice, I liked that as hex removal/emanagement, served two purposes. I definitely agree with shortening the cast time on guardian, 1 second just seems a bit too long. To lower the penalty for divine boon wouldn't work I don't think, because you then in effect have a 70 health free heal on anything you cast. Having said that, some form of buff makes sense, seeing as it's so fragile. I don't think chanelling really needs a buff, still very strong in the right circumstances. Agree with drain enchant needing a buff, but again what you suggested looks a bit too strong imo. Boon signet is a joke currently, tiny heal even with decent investment, and 6 energy gain maximum. I think it would be hard to buff the skill without imbalancing it, you'd either have to put the healing up a bit and the cast time, or energy gain. Though I still can't see it being used much.

But, I quite like the fact that now monk bars are designed around elites, or atleast have elites that heal/prot etc. Rather than elites that just supercharge non-elite skills. That was something that was really brought into the game with nightfall, with so many viable elites - zb/lod/dh/hb. Having said that, the inspiration line in general could use a buff, as it can't compete with GoLE atm.

HolyHawk · Mar 24, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

I guess anet thought a little about class e-management as they added the new chapters. Apart from ritualists, all the other 3 can get energy on their own, passivelly. They don't need specific skills. In that sense, I think mesmers were badly designed, they were given the "best" energy related skills, but their primary attribute doesn't give them some energy back, like uppon interruptions, hex removed. Paragons gain energy by shouting, assassins by hitting, dervishes when enchantments end on self, necros (and here is something that's imba imo) uppon deaths, elementalists have a different energy pool, rangers have energy cost reduced, warriors get adrenaline. Monks, Mesmers and Rts need to relly on skills.

However, changing these skills in order that the classes can take benneficts from them will just force a metagame, one that we might have already seen actually. If anything, find a way to tweak each profession's primary attribute to gain some energy back with a certain condition, or remove energy regain from them all. I know this is a strict position, but since many energy related skills were mentioned, I thought I should share my p.o.v.

Patrick Smit · Mar 24, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Personally, I'd like to see Monks go away. With some luck, this will happen in GW2, with races instead of classes.

Anet made a mistake by revolving the entire game around one class. Monks are what they are because few classes have a decent self heal. Each class should have been given a means to heal itself as well as do what it was designed for (damage, disruption, whatever). Guild Wars' game imbalances come from skill damage being weighed against the amount of healing one distinct class can offer.

Monks should have been able to Smite (do damage), Protect (reduce damage taken, but not heal for exorbitant amounts), de-hex, remove conditions, et al, but not be the primary source of healing in the entire game.

You seem to me to just want mindless killing frenzy while not wanting the challenge of circumventing defenses. A kind of typical 1 vs 1 duel mentality (NOI), but i love the teamwork and thats where monks or any other healer/protector fits in very well to my opnion.

When you watch the average GVG, and 2 of 8 players (25%) or 3 of 8 players (38%) are one class, on each side, in every single match, then that class is too entrenched as the axis the game revolves around.

Appearantly it works in computer and in real life too. Medics were "invented" a long time ago, and ensure that people don't die and live to fight another day, with added experience.

Death should come with a penalty , unless being it for special maps. But u can see the difference in "quality" of pvp style/builds where death matters and where not. In AB you don't really get punished by a lousy build or playstyle, or taking no heals at all. In any other pvp style you will end up with -60% DP.

The only skills i like to see changed are SoA and guardian, I think a cast time of 0.75 seconds would be fair to both.

elektra_lucia · Mar 24, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

There is no logic in what you're saying (self healing ability)... This isn't tanking like in PVE... If you're healing yourself, you can't be doing damage. So you start healing yourself and someone will just take advantage and attack you more, then you have to heal again... You won't get to attack. This is why there's a dedicated healer in my opinion.

Quote:

Anyways, did you really just buff Ihex past what it was prenerf? craziness.

Well i think what I've given is fair. Monks good on energy management can use veil (pre veiling is something inspired hex can't do).

Quote:

I don't mind a lot of the suggested changes that much, but I just like the general state of monks atm. I have my reasons.

Well I'd be hoping for people to have a choice, at the moment if people want aegis chain they feel reluctant to use channeling or other skills.

If they could get energy from inspired hex (enough to make it worth while using) and use channeling, they might think about taking out veil.

There is more enchant removal in the game and other things now, so I don't see as buffing boon prot quite a lot would be a problem (maybe I'm wrong).

Quote:

Right now I think Rits are where Monks should be. They can heal, they can protect, they can do damage, but not to such a ridiculous degree on any front (took a lot of balancing to get them here though). They lack hex removal, though. And their very best skills are conditional (spirits or items), so they are a challenge to play, but very rewarding. And weapon spells don't stack, unlike enchantments, which is something else I like about Rits.

This is a silly idea :S.

Patccmoi · Mar 24, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Personally i'm still against monk-friendly emanagement.

Your version of ihex is truly crazy for emanagement considering it's not a pure emanagement skill but would also be really good (15s recharge direct hex removal). AND you can have 2 copies of it in your skill bar, which would give you elite emanagement level (at 9 insp, it'd be a net 7E/8s on average if the other team uses any kind of hexing) + very good hex removal.

See, personally i'd like all those insp skills to instead be truly viable on Mesmers. Say you actually put iHex like you said, but make it 2s cast. Make Drain Enchantment 25s recharge and give good energy, but 2s cast. On a Mesmer with FC, 2s casts is pretty usable if the effect is worth it, but Monks couldn't just use inspiration skills so easily and their emanagement would be quite fragile if they did (which i think it SHOULD be). I'd gladly PLeak a 2s cast iHex on a monk.

If iHex was actually a strong skill but NOT so much on monks, then it'd be nice to just put on Mesmers. It'd be a viable emanagement for them (few teams actually have 0 hexes, be it an hydro or diversion or SP) and would do something useful for your team (while taking say GoLE does nothing for your team, it's just incredible emanagement for no attribute).

Imo, any meta where monk emanagement was strong was worse than it would've been otherwise. Monks are meant to eventually run out of energy if your team can't lower the other team's pressure (by scoring kills or shutdown) and shouldn't be able to cycle their energy so easily. Hell, they even nerfed nearly all other classes emanagement elites so they weren't really usable by monks (and left most of them to be total crap, like edrain and mantra of recall), and the emanagement elite given to monks are in general worse (P&H, Scribe's Insight, etc.). If you give better emanagement options to monks, the game would revolve even MORE around monks because then even if you don't really shutdown the other team's offense really efficiently monks will manage to heal and prot it (unless you spike) for as long as the fight goes.

The main reason inspiration sucks so much atm is because they want to prevent monks from using it. Note that the good inspiration skills left (Spirit of Failure and Power Drain) aren't easily usable by monks, one because of 3s cast time and the other because it's harder to use well especially under pressure (but good monks can use it, and if you're actually able to use PDrain on a monk well that's fine). The only exception is Channeling, but the efficiency of that is marginal out of HA (where it's ridiculous and imo overall superior to GoLE in HoH where teams are closer, allowing often to GAIN energy per cast). But I'd really rather see the inspiration line tweaked so that the effects are really good but the cast time 2+ sec for the skills that'd be easily usable on monks so that Mesmers finally have a real emanagement line and don't just put GoLE on their bar all the time.

Vermilion · Mar 24, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

There really isn't any reason to run power drain though, atm. For 5 energy, you have a chance to gain 18+. If the other team has a lot of physicals, your options for using pdrain are what? the monks and runner? Id rather not overextend just to use it. Then you consider GolE, which saves you potentially 25 or so energy for no spec. To get 25 on pdrain you need 12 inspiration. -.-

(I realized this example is only relevant in GvG, but in HA you won't need more than channeling anyway)

So yeah, maybe a small buff to inspiration and a nerf to gole is whats needed to make monk bars more diverse, but idk.

Div · Mar 24, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I'd like to see boon signet get a good buff, as well as divine boon's healing (slightly--3-4 points at 14). That way, the boonprot can come back as a viable monk build, but not in its previous form with oob/edrain/inspired hex. Good days...