Curse

tomcruisejr · Dec 27, 2006, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

Isn't that a bit extreme? So whoever conserves all their adrenaline and energy before the VoD wins? Doesn't sound too fair to me.

that was just an example. and youre right, it's too extreme.

but i think it's good. you dont want 72:00 minute matches, dp you?

lutz · Dec 27, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

that was just an example. and youre right, it's too extreme.

but i think it's good. you want 72:00 minute matches to end asap right?

No match should end over 20 minutes.

Just make it like at 10 minutes, all players suffer from -10 health degeneration and -4 energy degeneration, or something.

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 27, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

that was just an example. and youre right, it's too extreme.

but i think it's good. you dont want 72:00 minute matches, dp you?

The problem with a VoD effect is people are going to create their builds around it, causing every match to be longer than it should. People plan for VoD situations in GvG, right? Now people will create a build which'll hold until VoD, and use it as an advantage. yay, long matches...

crucifix · Dec 27, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Gaile, I really feel sorry for you if you honestly intend on reading through this whole thread. It's up to twelve pages of more or less the exact same thing.

one thing i would like to add, however, is in relation to the rank debates. Rank neednt be reset. Its a title, just like all of the rest. Fame farming will always be there despite what anet does to discourage it. there will always be a build and always be a way to kill through the first few maps and recycle (SEARING FLAMES). Its something you have to live with in PvP atmospheres.

If this thread does somehow inspire you to change tombs back to 8 man teams, also take into consideration what needs to be done to some certain skills. not to beat a dead horse here, but if tombs are set back to 8 man, fix searing flames... otherwise i can see the new iway being 6 sf eles and 2 monks.

a time would be an exellent idea for certain annihilation maps, largely just for a "vod" effect. Or, if people are too afraid of builds being created around a vod "treading water" aspect, then just make it a kill count.

yeah, that about wraps it up.

Mental Leteci · Dec 27, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Honestly, best way to fix HA forever would be to to return 8v8, bring back Burial Mounds and make it RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO2 again because whichever "lame" build comes to burial will stay there. It will probably get ganked and that might stop people from running it. Also that would make way to HoH a lot harder (like it used to be) and make sigils expensive again (also, like it used to be).

ValidusMonachus · Dec 27, 2006, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Change it back to 8 vs 8. Also, put a limit on the amount of times a team can hold halls. I am European, so I do get favour which is good, but it would be nice to give other teams a chance.

JR · Dec 27, 2006, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Honestly, best way to fix HA forever would be to to return 8v8, bring back Burial Mounds and make it RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO2 again because whichever "lame" build comes to burial will stay there. It will probably get ganked and that might stop people from running it. Also that would make way to HoH a lot harder (like it used to be) and make sigils expensive again (also, like it used to be).

I don't think that will "fix it" at all. The 6v6 change was implemented for a reason; HA was terrible. Changing it back will just bring back the problems it used to have, but will also provide a better base to work from for other improvements.

Nurse With Wound · Dec 27, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I don't think that will "fix it" at all. The 6v6 change was implemented for a reason; HA was terrible. Changing it back will just bring back the problems it used to have, but will also provide a better base to work from for other improvements.

Hey we loved it :P I used to spent there 6-7 hours a day lol. Now im only logging ingame when theres gvg going on. Truth be told only change to full format 8v8 would be enopugh to please me. Of course if anet took more time and made serious changes ( new maps with new objectives ), that would be even better. But in all honesty, I dont want to wait forever, Warhammer Online is coming soon, and Im hanging out here in hopes that there will still be something fun to do in GWs again

JR · Dec 27, 2006, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Hey we loved it :P I used to spent there 6-7 hours a day lol. Now im only logging ingame when theres gvg going on. Truth be told only change to full format 8v8 would be enopugh to please me. Of course if anet took more time and made serious changes ( new maps with new objectives ), that would be even better. But in all honesty, I dont want to wait forever, Warhammer Online is coming soon, and Im hanging out here in hopes that there will still be something fun to do in GWs again

I agree, the crucial changes should be made as soon as possible.

Lord Mendes · Dec 27, 2006, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Changing back to 8v8 wont directly "fix" the problems in HA, but it will make much easier to solve (what Juniordash said).
I say this simply because the maps in HA were created for 8 man teams and the skills are balanced for 8 man PvP. Also, because there was a much bigger crowd in HA when it was 8v8.
Going back in time, I still don't understand why exactly you changed it in the first place. Granted it was pretty terrible for most players, but moving from a "balanced" PvP party size to a "less balanced" one is simply retarded.

In 6v6:
-Easier party formation? No, especially now that we have a party formation system. Also there never really was a problem with PuGing in HA, unless you were a lazy newb who hoped to buy his fame off ebay, or were morally opposed to playing anything other than your wammo.
-More balanced? Hell no. You can take the best 6 players in guildwars and let them come up with a build, and they will never be able to perform equally well in annyhilation (sp?), relic runs, and altar maps.
-More players? You got the numbers, you should know.
-Did it shut the whiners up? Nope. Actually there are more whiners now than there ever were.

If this isn't a good indication that HA is more balanced in 8v8 and that changes should be made accordingly, then I don't know what is.

To whoever may be reading this from Anet, most the people in TGH are people that have or will never set foot in HA. They found their niches in GvG and want to turn HA into something they can do if they don't have enough people on. They don't look at the big picture, and wouldn't mind seeing the death of HA simply so that they can go in there with joke builds once a week.

Nurse With Wound · Dec 27, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

To whoever may be reading this from Anet, most the people in TGH are people that have or will never set foot in HA. They found their niches in GvG and want to turn HA into something they can do if they don't have enough people on. They don't look at the big picture, and wouldn't mind seeing the death of HA simply so that they can go in there with joke builds once a week.

Yup, most HA hardcores from good balanced guilds, who were once dedicated to HA exclusively, post here on this forum, on guru. TGH was always very hostile to HA scene, and Im sure lots of people posting there would like us ( our of spite? jealousy? i dont know ) to quit the game, and turn our arena to their casual playground. Dont listen to TGH people, those arent the ones who used to spent 6+ hours in HA.

crucifix · Dec 27, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

8v8 is a yes, but even before 8v8 would come in, anet would have some serious skill balancing issue to worry about... hell if they dont then i have a feeling damn near every "balanced" party will be eurospike with an sb infuse...

do I want 8v8? HELL YES, i miss blood spike. Do a lot of skills need fixed for annihilation style play? maybe... I just think that there is that delicate line of skill nerfeing to make gvg's unaffected, but HA playable.

Mental Leteci · Dec 27, 2006, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

do I want 8v8? HELL YES, i miss blood spike.

I seriously doubt people will ever run it again, there was no problem beating it before, I don't see why would it be now with new professions/skills.
Anyway, I still think my solution is nice, just because of people who would attempt to run lame builds. If there are any old school HA players in here they will understand.

Nurse With Wound · Dec 27, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Anyway, I still think my solution is nice, just because of people who would attempt to run lame builds.

Word. Old burial was FTW. Instead of making unnecessary change to scarred, they should bring back burial mounds in the old style. That was VERY GOOD shitty team filter.

Rui · Dec 27, 2006, 02:20 PM // 14:20

when ha was 8v8 people used to play it for fun!!!!!! Now its used to waste some time while u dont have enough players for gvg or fame farming gg...

Infectious · Dec 27, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Just thinking about it, the exact VoD system from GvG would probably go nicely in HA at the moment.
Maybe drop the timer to 15:00-17:50 thou except of scarred earth where maybe 20-25 mins might be a better idea

DreamWind · Dec 27, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Yup, most HA hardcores from good balanced guilds, who were once dedicated to HA exclusively, post here on this forum, on guru. TGH was always very hostile to HA scene, and Im sure lots of people posting there would like us ( our of spite? jealousy? i dont know ) to quit the game, and turn our arena to their casual playground. Dont listen to TGH people, those arent the ones who used to spent 6+ hours in HA.

Forewarning: This post is about 75% 6v6 versus 8v8, and then 25% real ideas for making HA better.

The quote in bold is my entire problem here. My theory is that the reason that most people on this forum want 8v8 back is because they CAN form a team of 8 rather easily, or may even have a dedicated team. This is not the case for the majority, which is why almost everywhere else, 6v6 seems to be favored.

Me personally, I am a longtime HA player. I have been in a few guilds, and many times have had problems fielding a team of 8 people I knew well for sessions of HA. We would have to resort to pugs (which isn't the best but its workable). When the change to 6v6 was made, I was very happy because now I could play with a team of all people I knew fairly regularly. This is just my personal experience, and it is still the case today. Also my personal experience, I have had about as many fun games in 6v6 HA as I did in 8v8 HA.

Speaking of Pugs, I think the reason there were more districts a long time ago was quite frankly because of gimmick, easy to set up and play builds that existed, that were killed by the change. Iway and dual smite come to mind. In fact, HA/Tombs owes about 90% of its existence to Iway as far as I'm concerned.

Heros were not the fault of 6v6. Broken paragons creating defense builds were not the fault of 6v6. Having horrendously old maps that are as old as Guild Wars itself is not the fault of 6v6. What I am trying to say is 6v6 has NOT been given a realistic chance to be successful because of the other poor decisions that have been made in HA. People seem to be placing false blame of the destruction of HA on 6v6, when 6v6 isn't at fault for any of them!

I also do not buy the argument that 6v6 is inferior tactically to 8v8. I have had more tactical decisions in HA recently than I have ever had before, especially in the relic run maps and the new Scarred Earth. There is also minor differences, such as channeling not being as broken in 6v6. I am not saying 6v6 is clearly better than 8v8, but it also not clearly worse as others here are exagerrating. Also, stop using the argument that 8v8 is better because you have 16 more skills. So what? In 20v20 you have 112 more skills, so 20v20 must be better than 8v8. Just because GW is supposedly "perfectly balanced" for 8v8 doesn't mean that is true for HA. In fact, 8v8 HA was anything but balanced as far as I can remember. One example is pure spike builds, which many would even argue are bad for the game (except for the people who play them of course).

Also, stop saying "since party search has come well 6v6 has to go!". First of all, the party search isn't even being used by many people as it currently stands. I still see people spamming the chat LFG when the party search is right there. And half the time you invite someone off the party search they don't play for very long. Which gets me to my next point...a large pug population of HA is dead because of the absence of easy to form builds like I said earlier. This is the reason for less districts. Another thing...I am glad some people here are blessed with the abilty to get 8 people whenever they want to play HA, but most people don't have that luxury. Many people when 8v8 was around had to spend hours forming groups only to play for 15 minutes before somebody had to leave. Not fun at all. 6v6 LARGELY killed that problem.

Ok now for a constructive change to HA:

We have been looking at the same maps for too long now...I think the NUMBER ONE thing that has to be done in HA is add multiple new maps (at least 2-3) and make changes to flaws in current maps.

Bring back Burial Mounds for starters, it shouldn't have been removed. Make Broken Tower 1v1 again (because it is such an early map). Add some time to Courtyard (priests have no use in that map currently). Find something other than last person to cap wins in relic runs. Fix lever bugs and no morale when killing ghostly bugs. Fix stupid amounts of lag in relic runs when people are doing mass bodyblocks. Nerf Song of Concentration, or better yet fix the entire altar mechanic. Remove skips because they serve no purpose other than to let unworthy teams get to HoH. Add new EXCLUSIVE HA rewards that can't be found anywhere else. Many other little issues I can't even think of at the moment. Basically what I am saying is just show people that HA is being cared for!

So many other little quirks in HA that have annoyed people over the years that can be easily fixed. A big idea to me would be changing the final objective to something other than an altar map, or adding a nonaltar map after HoH. The fact that the last map is something where you just have to stay alive for 4 minutes leads to holding builds and an HA metagame that has been disturbed for quite some time in my opinion. Sure there were balanced builds around, but lets be honest it has always been 90% quick kill easy to play build or spike build or holding build. Never changed.

But...Most of all Anet, there has to be NEW maps, some which have been suggested in another thread such as CTF or another type of multiway annihilation different from Scarred Earth. Show us the love for Hall of Heroes! Give it new stuff already!!!

Maps are the number 1 change to HA in my opinion. I know others here will say 8v8 will be the number 1 change. Let me put it this way...if they made lots of map changes and gave HA that born again feeling then I would welcome back 8v8 HA and maybe some other 6v6 arena if that is what it took, because I really think map changes and additions are needed to HA now. But as it stands I don't think 6v6 HA has been given a fair chance.

tomcruisejr · Dec 27, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

The problem with a VoD effect is people are going to create their builds around it, causing every match to be longer than it should. People plan for VoD situations in GvG, right? Now people will create a build which'll hold until VoD, and use it as an advantage. yay, long matches...

you don't need VoD in Relic run maps. It's just for annihilation coz its prone to 72 minute matches :P

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

I'll tell you what the primary difference between 8v8 and 6v6 was in terms of brokenness. Sure, as many of you have said, 8v8 had its flaws and annoying gimmicks, and it might've taken a long time to set up. If I got beaten by some lame gimmick in 8v8 (which doesn't happen often as most of them are easy to beat) I said damn, lets go in again. I was having fun regardless. I get beaten by something stupid in 6v6 like spiritspam, and I either just get off or get thrown into a 5 minute long rant, it is not any fun. If I get beaten in 8v8 by a lame build, I know that somewhere along the line my team screwed up (also as a general rule it doesn't take as long). In 6v6, its buildwars or rock paper scissors, whichever you prefer to call it. Also, to those of you worried about bloodspike if 8v8 returns: Avatar of Grenth ggkkthxbai

Tiyuri · Dec 27, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Heros were not the fault of 6v6. Broken paragons creating defense builds were not the fault of 6v6. Having horrendously old maps that are as old as Guild Wars itself is not the fault of 6v6. What I am trying to say is 6v6 has NOT been given a realistic chance to be successful because of the other poor decisions that have been made in HA.

Wrong imo.

Those of us who used to spend hours each day there are capable of telling the difference between HA sucking because it's a mess of Heroes and over defensive paragons, and HA sucking because it's 6v6.

Paragons have been nerfed, Heroway has been removed, it's still ZERO fun. It's still buildwars. It's still completely unbalanced. You're still playing a grand game of rock paper scissors.

The problem is that the skills that a good team could use to counter ANYTHING (assuming they played them with enough skill) were utility skills, interrupts, snares, blackouts, gales, etc.

There's just no room for these skills anymore.

You've got 2 monks, that leaves you with 4 slots. Now if you only run 2 monks for defence, I guaranteed, no matter how good they are, they will get rolled vs Grenth dervish, and overpowered RaO thumpers and so on.

So you need more defence, lots of people deal with those with a warder, that leaves you with 3 slots for defence. 3 slots are left for offence, there is no room for utility, for the skills that let good teams pick apart any build, even if its a direct counter.

No room for skills to complete the HA objectives, relic runs, alters, so on.

Logical result?

Go full defence, at least you wont lose to anyone. Because if you go full offence, and meet a team running almost full defence, you're screwed.