Curse

pro_luck · Dec 25, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

i am for changing it back to 8v8 AND especialy putting away heroes or keep it on 6v6 just rid us of heroes or why dont you put heroes in TA ? why heroes in hoh and not in the ta is only 2 players difrence

master_of_puppets · Dec 25, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

There should be some kind of poll in-game where every r4+ account will be eligible to vote whether HA should stay 6 v 6 or return to 8 v 8 when you log in.

Merry Christmas.

Tiyuri · Dec 25, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

I'd like to explain why 8v8 is better than 6v6, without taking into account my personal opinion on which is more fun.

Any build is made up of three things.

Offence - Whatever you use to score kills on the opposing team.
Defence - Whatever you use to stop the opposing team scoring kills on you.
Utility - Makes your build flexible, contains skills like snares, speed buffs, interrupts and so on.

Now in a 6v6 format, you are pretty much required to have 2 monks for defence at least, or your team will simply collapse.
This leaves 4 players for offence and no room at all for utility.

Now lets take into account the fact that with nightfall we've got 10 professions on the table, 10 professions and 4 player slots to counter them all with. Simply, you can't.

Remember all the posts here and on the guild hall regarding the constant addition of professions and the fixed party size of 8? Players were concerned that as more professions are added, yet skill slot size and team size remains the same. The game would turn into paper/rock/scissors. Simply because you don't have enough options on your skill bar to counter a constantly growing list of skills/professions.

Well by limiting HA to 6v6 you've basically accelerated this process within Heroes Ascent.

If your team has offence type A, and I have defence type B, you win. Before the match has even started. Why? Because there's no room for utility on our team. Back in 8v8, given the same scenario, I would have used the utility on my bar to interrupt your offence type A, or shut it down, or work around it. Giving me the chance to win despite the fact your build counters my build.

Now lets also take into account that much of HA requires you to hold alters, and now that a number of maps have been changed to 3-ways, if you're winning both teams attempt to gank you to kick you out of the match, because they're afraid of losing to you.

The logical way around this is going completely defensive, then you're basically assuring yourself a win on half of the maps because half of the maps simply require you to hold out.

This is why everyone who wants to win consistently now is running major holding builds. Sure there were holding builds in 8v8, however because of the larger number of skill slots, you could also fit offence into those builds and actually kill things!

On top of that, those of us running balanced build had room for utility! and so we could deal with those major defensive builds by working around their system of defence, like David described earlier with his example of interrupting or shutting down a spirit spammer to take out a Blood Spike.

So, because of the number of skills in the game, the number of professions. Even changing maps around won't help fix HA as long as it's 6v6.

The only way you can win vs everything out there, is by running ridiculous defence, that just wont die, and out lasting your opponents. There's no room for utility, and if you choose to run offence you're playing rock paper scissors, and when you meet a defensive team you wont be able to kill them anyway.

No one enjoys not killing anything.
No one enjoys being ganked by two teams at once because you're the superior team on the field.
No one enjoys losing a match to a vastly inferior team simply because you don't have the skills on your bar to counter them.

Here's hoping someone will actually consider what I've said and not just jump on it in an attempt to appear the coolest guy on the internet forum.

Lastly, a message to Gaile.

If Anet isn't going to change HA back to 8v8, if they're only interested in other ways of changing things around (note I didn't use the term fix, because only changing HA back to 8v8 will ever fix it). Then can you please let us know. As my entire guild, and other people I know would rather just quit the game right now if this is the case.

Some of us are just hanging on to see if 8v8 will return, and if Anet isn't willing to consider changing party size back please let us know so we can stop wasting our time.

Thanks for posting in the PVP forums Gaile, it's appreciated.

tomcruisejr · Dec 25, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

There should be some kind of poll in-game where every r4+ account will be eligible to vote whether HA should stay 6 v 6 or return to 8 v 8 when you log in.

Merry Christmas.

why r4+? better if its all coz there are also r0 wanting to play.

in game poll system is more reliable than forum poll system.the majority of the players doesnt go to the forums. and forums have different player groups (the guild hall got mostly gvg players and guru got mostly HA players).

lishi · Dec 25, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Why don't implement a map who have snowball arena format? The strategy of that arena actually are most deep then more of HA maps

Lorekeeper · Dec 25, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

i make a post highlighting the futility of trying to solve this problem by arguing how much better one mode is than the other. By simply saying that everyones views are as valid as the others.

then immediately 2 people post why 8vs8 is obviously the right answer.

does anyone else see the irony?

this is not to say that i dont have any counters to your arguments guys... here they are.

Firsty... in response to the statement that because HA... started off as 8vs8... it was clearly always meant to be that way.
And that if it was ''meant'' for 6vs6 it would have started off as a 6vs6 format.

GW is a dynamic game... with updates that change many aspects of it... in the aim of correcting design flaws or balancing skill issues etc. We have seen the game evolve and change for better or worse over the past few years... the game designers have the right to exercise some creativity and experimentation in these updates in order to improve the game. Change is never always for the better... but change for the worse is just as valuable as change for the better... ever hear the wise old saying that says you learn alot more if you make mistakes?

gaile gray... by informing us that Anet is currently evaluting the entire PvP situation... is a clear statement backing up the above paragraph... that anet is just trying stuff out to see what works... why it works... or why it doesnt work. And they are prepared to deal with the consequences of making these changes.

This is the necessary nature of developing a dynamic online game.

on to your next point which you make without ANY supporting arguments watsoever.

making 2 HAs would make the reduced numbers in HA even worse....

i take it you mean that if we take the current number of HA players in split them into 2 HAs... things would be pretty empty.

you are probably right, but your argument is based on the presumption that reintroducing 8vs8 wouldnt attract back players who had left HA after the change to 6vs6. I for one would be HAing on a daily basis like i used to do if 8vs8 was put back into the game. im part of that older generation of gw players who left HA or left the game. i still HA every now and then but not anything like i used.

And i can guarantee that many other players would flood back to HA if 8vs8 was back in town.

This leaves us with the 6vs6 lobby. Which i assume... will be full of the more ''casual'' players who prefer to form faster teams... it may also be the place for guilds to go if they dont have enough online for GvG.

So what if over time... the 6vs6 lobbies become less populated... at least they are there for people who want to play 6vs6. thats the whole points of choice... regardles of whether they are made or not... they are there for us to make.

If it turns out that 6vs6 becomes unplayable because there are literally not enough teams to maintain a workable tournament system.... then the small amount of players who are in this situation will just have to move to 8vs8.

but if it really comes down to that... doesnt it mean that the VAST majority of the PvP community wants to play 8vs8? and the whole problem would be solved on its own.

this is an entirely hypothetical scenario... but to be honest i do not see how including both 8vs8 and 6vs6 would cause BOTH to be barely populated. Announcing the reintroduction of 8vs8 would be a massively good thing for the HA community.

in response to Bacon.

i urge you to reread my first post...

just because you can find perfectly logical reasons why 8vs8 is the best and most viable option doesnt mean people who like 6vs6 should not like 6vs6 and are wrong to like it.

dont you understand what im trying to say?

lets say i cook a nice roast beef dinner with gravy... but one week i run out of gravy and i have to serve the beef with mint sauce instead because its the only sauce i have in the kitchen. And my brother hates it... he says mint sauce is never meant to go with roast beef. But my sister loves it... she simply says... why didnt anyone think of this before?!

Who is right?

there is no right or wrong...

if people like 8vs8 fine thats their personal taste
if people like 6vs6 fine thats their personal taste

who are you to tell people what they can like and what they cannot like playing.

6vs6 was given to the pvp community and anet has to deal with the fact that people may have grown to enjoy it and there are many people who are very vocal about this.
they also need to deal with the fact that many people still remember 8vs8 and left HA when it was taken out.

who are you to blankly state that the reasons to change 8vs8 to 6vs6 are invalid thats your opinion but its another thing to claim it as irrefutable fact.... some people just prefer 6vs6!!!!

its as simple as that!

what i am suggesting is a compromise... which will hopefully please all camps in the HA community. Is that really so bad for you two to support?

Lorekeeper · Dec 25, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

I'd like to explain why 8v8 is better than 6v6

firstly id like to say that i agree with alot if not most of what you said... since im one of the players who gave up taking HA seriously after the change to 6vs6. And you highlight exactly the frustrations in buildmaking for 6vs6 that have caused me to give up trying.

but this isnt a matter of what is better anymore. Just because we know there are valid reasons why 8vs8 is better it doesnt take away the reality that some players prefer 6vs6.

theres got to be a way to make sure that the game caters to the 6vs6 and the 8vs8 community.

the solution to get rid of 6vs6 and bring back 8vs8 would certainly result in the players who enjoy 6vs6 leaving HA or leaving the game.

just the same way that the change from 8vs8 to 6vs6 resulted in the diehard 8vs8 players to give up on HA.

what right have we to on the one hand... demand to be given back a playmode we left the game for.
and on the other hand take away a gamemode which could cause just as many players to stop HAing....

its just hypocritical and i wont have any part of it... im not happy that HA is not my ideal playground anymore but it doesnt give me the right to totally shove aside the current HA players who might have grown fond of the 6vs6 meta.

Tiyuri · Dec 25, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

its just hypocritical and i wont have any part of it... im not happy that HA is not my ideal playground anymore but it doesnt give me the right to totally shove aside the current HA players who might have grown fond of the 6vs6 meta.

The right I think I have to complain, is the one that comes with being a dedicated HA player for a very long time. 6v6 Players seem far more casual and so a casual arena would be ideal for them. But I bought Guildwars for HA, I played guildwars for HA, it's logical that I'll complain if suddenly they ruin the only thing I'm playing guildwars for.

Also you have to put these things in perspective, I'm sure there are some people out there who'd prefer you could just choose any armor, any PVE armor, fissure armor even from the first town, for no money.

Does that mean we should alter the game? Everyone would agree this would be detrimental for the game, despite the fact that some people would like it.

In my previous post I tried to explain, that despite the fact some people like 6v6, its detrimental to the game as a whole because it turns guildwars into buildwars. And even if some people like that, I don't think that's what guildwars is about.

Guildwars was developed with player skill in mind.

tomcruisejr · Dec 25, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

the solution to get rid of 6vs6 and bring back 8vs8 would certainly result in the players who enjoy 6vs6 leaving HA or leaving the game.

and the 8vs8-ers fail to consider that coz all they only care bout making their easy to run builds work again.

the best thing to even out things is through democracy. Poll the players and accept the results. problem solved. if those who in favor of the losing system suddenly whine and leave, get them f out of the game. the most important thing is you are making the majority of the players happy.

poll it, a.net. go go go.

Tiyuri · Dec 25, 2006, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

and the 8vs8-ers fail to consider that coz all they only care bout making their easy to run builds work again.

Please can we try to lay off the blanket statements?

8v8 builds are more complex, how can they be easier to run than 6v6 builds, they contain more skill slots. Yes theres blood spike, and iway, but blood spike still works in 6v6 and there's a new 6v6 iway to a degree.

Many of us played 8v8 for the balanced play, Wee Free Men, my guild, played nothing but balanced, we won with balanced, we held halls with balanced.

And I have to tell you, towards the end of HA (I'm speaking now about Euro hours, I don't know what the Americans were playing) Iway was gone, dead completely. Blood spike was only seen very late at night (which is moving into American time I guess) and just about everyone, match to match, was running balanced pressure builds.

These were far far more complex than anything you see in 6v6.

6v6 now contains Spirit spam, Steady stance spamming warriors and a bunch of eles spamming healing ring + cycling heal seed whilst a paragon angelic bonds them all.

These are pretty much the only builds you ever see.

8v8 HA was filled with complex builds, full of utility skills, generally balanced. You don't even see mesmers in HA anymore, most builds contained at least one mesmer in 8v8. NO ONE is running mesmers anymore.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Dec 25, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Well if you guys want a poll system that is suitable my opinion would be:

Every player rank one and above has a vote. For each rank you have you get one vote to put to whatever option you want. So rank 2 players get 2 seperate votes, rank 4 get 4, etc. Rank is a representation of time spent in HA so the people who are there the most should have more votes imo.

Tiyuri · Dec 25, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

Well if you guys want a poll system that is suitable my opinion would be:

Every player rank one and above has a vote. For each rank you have you get one vote to put to whatever option you want. So rank 2 players get 2 seperate votes, rank 4 get 4, etc. Rank is a representation of time spent in HA so the people who are there the most should have more votes imo.

Smart suggestion.

But can you imagine the response from PVE players on this?

PVP is already seen as elitists only.

tacitus · Dec 25, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I diont this a poll is the answer. not everyone in guild wars plays HA and it is possible for most of those who play HA often say 4 hours a week or more will vote mainly for 8v8, while the choice of 6v6 may get more votes overall due to people who dont play HA often voting for this.

Im not saying this will happen but its possible, and the question you have to consider is. What would that poll have achieved?

For some ppl that would suggest that 6v6 is more popular, for others it would suggest that pvp is being decided by those who dont/rarely play pvp.

In the end it would solve nothing but give certain people some ammunition to use on these threads.

I would far rather have a 8v8 weekend to see how popular HA is Anet can track that and compare it to normal weekends to see how it reacts.

phasola · Dec 25, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

and the 8vs8-ers fail to consider that coz all they only care bout making their easy to run builds work again.

the best thing to even out things is through democracy. Poll the players and accept the results. problem solved. if those who in favor of the losing system suddenly whine and leave, get them f out of the game. the most important thing is you are making the majority of the players happy.

poll it, a.net. go go go.

I didn't get to say anything about 6v6 poll. They made it on GHall and we all know the results to that...

Lorekeeper · Dec 25, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

And even if some people like that, I don't think that's what guildwars is about.

its up to Anet to decide whether sacrificing 6vs6 and gaining back all the 8vs8 players is worth it based on the argument that 8vs8 meta promotes a far better pvp meta.

its going to be very interesting to see if anet decides that upsetting the 6vs6 crowd is the right thing to do. i still dont see why we cant have both modes.

Noone has yet made a convincing argument against including both... im not sure exactly how to implement both but surely there must be some way of doing it which doesnt mean alienating one portion (no matter how small) of the HA community.

the problem with polling... is that apparently following the 6vs6 double fame weekend... Anet believed the majority of players loved the 6vs6. And so for whatever reasons that lay behind this support... Anet changed HA. (in hindsight the popularity might have been to the doublefame lol)
and who decides who is 'worthy' of taking part in this poll? Are Pvers who never step foot inside HA not allowed to vote? How do you separate out these players? is it even possible to prove that player name xxx never been to HA?

id like to see how Anet creates this poll.. i think sociologists over the world would be interested to recruit the Anet member of staff who can formulate an accurate poll out of the GW population. (Which is potentially a poll of 3million human beings from all over the world).

and to be honest... the problems of HA are not limited to the issue of how many players allowed in the team.

8vs8 wasnt perfect either.

Tiyuri · Dec 25, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

8vs8 wasnt perfect either.

Agreed, but 8v8 was the engine in a slightly damaged car.

Lorekeeper · Dec 25, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Agreed, but 8v8 was the engine in a slightly damaged car.

i hope Anet renewed its car insurance.

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 25, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Smart suggestion.

But can you imagine the response from PVE players on this?

PVP is already seen as elitists only.

So?

Winning halls or only playing HA isn't meant for PvE'rs. That's why they have PvE. Hell, they already have 3 continents of content, another elite mission, while we got our 8v8 taken away? I don't understand why PvE'rs should have a say in the first place.

Nurse With Wound · Dec 25, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

I'd like to explain why 8v8 is better than 6v6, without taking into account my personal opinion on which is more fun.

.

Excellent post. This is basicly what I've been telling here for 2 months, and more. Kudos sir!

Syra mentioned that 6v6 people will leave the HA when it will be changed to 8v8 again. I really dont think it will happen, simply because the change will give broadening possibilities, and more serious meta. Those are all treats for good pvp players. Of course, some searing flames pve bambi farmers will leave the arena, but thats a good thing imo. While the 6v6 change caused the exodus of most of dedicated and experienced HA players, mostly to gvg, and out of the game. It was caused by the loss of importance of the arena ( 8v8 is much more prestigious ), and by limiting our build-making options - thus making truely balanced gameplay nearly impossible. Tyiuri wrote about this topic so I wont repeat it.

I also think that polls are a bad idea, because you really dont know who is voting there ( and every vote would count, even votes of those who hate HA, and /or never played it and never will ). Its best to just post ideas and opinions and let them ( anet ) read and decide.

Also guys, lets behave so they dont lock our thread again

Djinn Effer · Dec 25, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

(Originally posted on GWO, by myself.)

The problem with player base is quite a big one, and one that is not easily fixable. All of my suggested fixes are geared primarily towards fixing the player base issue as it is the problem at hand. There are underlying issues that perhaps caused this, yes; however, it persists as the major problem at hand.

As I have stated previously, people need incentive to do something. Currently there are these few things as incentive:

Fame
Faction
(rare)Sigil+Chest drop

Everything else aside, those are the incentives for people to play. Of course people also "play for fun;" it's a game, of course they do. That's why they bought it in the first place, it's so nonsensical to even try to bring that up as a major point because it's just so rhetorical and obvious.

Now, based on fansites we can assume that the majority of players in Guild Wars are PvE players. Perhaps thats what most people prefer and nothing we can do will change that; but, since that is where the people are going to be coming from the suggestions below will help. I'll explain why.

Gold Rewards: Per win, not limited per se to HA but included in appropriate amounts to all forms of PvP.
- GvG should receive the most gold per win because their matches are the most difficult. HA should recieve the next most gold per win because it is the next, meant highest end arena. After that it should be the same per RA/TA and other respective low-end arenas.
  - To counter balance this for PvE to be fair across the entire platform we must give small menial Faction rewards in PvE which should respectfully be able to be used in place of gold+skill points to unlock skills. Not including elites, as it could negate the 1k buying cost but not award a PvE character the elite; they still have to cap it. This way, we reduce the gap of PvE having a hard grind to do what PvP players do easily. The system is already in place, just needs to be initiated more widely.
Fixed, increased sigil price. Set the base price of sigils to 50k, they should not drop below that. Reduce the amount of sigils won perhaps to negate economy issues, although there would be a temporary fluctuation and it would eventually settle anyways.
- Increased reward for this because the goal was supposed to originally be win the Hall of Heroes. Most good players already have their tigers of phoenixes and they arn't going for the r15 gerbil emote. (haha!) The reason for this is they got bored and there was no more reward except to grind fame out for a rank which they realized didn't mean too much. Most went to GvG, yes. This is because it is the only other acceptable form of high-end PvP; however, it still has rewards in place that people can desire to have. (e.g. notoriety of being a top guild & tournament traveling/rewards.) The problem with GvG is since it is all based upon a ladder and instead of just receiving a flat-rate reward per win (HA) but instead also receiving a penalty per loss it makes the matches more significant and thusly people will play it less because they are going to be serious about how they play. If certain very good players in their guild are not on, they do not play because of this. I'm getting to my point, it is because of this reason that GvG players have turned to PvE: As HA has lost all incentive, there is most always something to do in PvE; people in nearly any game are always going to want the in-game currency for something! So since we can assume nearly all players even HA and GvG players are also PvE players at some point or another we can assume that gold rewards and increased chest drop rewards would benefit in bringing back the player base as it would give them new incentive to play. Since they all play PvE it only makes sense they would want gold to get their characters what they want, be it armors, skills or rare skinned weapons.
Revert to 8v8: As I have mentioned it brings more possible variety with more skills and it has been counter argued that the variety was then used to counter other builds that were out there such as IWAY.
- Well, is this not still done? If you do not bring counters to spirit spam or searing flames you are still going to die; you must counter the meta, or be defeated by it. That is how the game has always worked, not just for HA but for GvG as well. People will always need to bring counters to the current meta, or invent a new meta that does not require said counter. The difference is, now we're drawing skills such as Mantra of Flame, Frigid Armor, etc out of a smaller skill set than we had before, thus actually limiting the build possibilities quite a bit more than just having 6v6-8v8. So yes, 8v8 was better. You always had to bring counters, before more variants were possible though; yes, it did include spiking but that is just a build like any other build. It is one of the most effective ways to kill someone. It's something you don't see on too many other games either, so it was a nice thing to have on GW.
  - Heroes Ascent is supposed to be a High End Tournament game play. If GvG is high end at 8 and RA/TA is low end at 4, then this means that currently HA is not high end at 6. It is mid-end - not how it was intended originally. So, set it back to 8v8. If the game truly requires a stepping stone from 4v4 to 8v8 then perhaps make a new arena that is 6v6 or change TA to 6v6. After all TA is supposed to be the step up from RA; only problem is the fact that after 10 wins you move from RA to TA. So an entire new arena is probably required if the stepping stone is really needed. The thing you must see though, is HA is not meant to be a stepping stone up to GvG. It is meant to be the equivilant to GvG, it was there to give good players variety in what they did. If they did not want the stress from losing rating then they could compete in the Tournaments with no punishment for losing and still have a high end form of PvP.
Tutorial System: Ask yourself, what is the biggest disadvantage of a new player coming into HA? The lack of map knowledge, build knowledge and game play knowledge.
- An in-depth tutorial system that allows for not only the exploration of each map but the private instance tutorial on how to play it would allow new players to not only learn the maps but learn what to do on them when they get there. The problem then is build knowledge. There should be NPCs that are updated, possibly with Player submitted help explaining the current metagame(s), and why they work. Not just use this, this and this and you will do good. Explain why a+b=c, not just tell them. Once people have the ability to learn about builds like this, they will start to realize they can make builds themselves once they understand why the builds that are good work. This is the single most important thing for new players, having the power to not have to play the meta builds but make their own. Not only would it help new players in the game but it would help everyone as it would add variety to what is seen. I hope I've explained this enough, if not it is explained more in depth in my original post links here (.txt file).
Map variety, 3 chamber rotation: Heroes Ascent, or the Mists is designed like a cave system. You start at the outer most layer and slowly fight your way through cave chambers slowly working further in towards the center, where the gods gaze down directly upon, the Hall of Heroes. Now, with the cave system it is very possible to add in and keep intact the original storyline elements of this. You will start in Heroes Ascent (Zaishen), we will refer to this as "A," from A you will have an option to go to B (Underworld), C, or D. C & D will both be different map types, as UW is annhilation C or D should be different map types such as dodgeball (yes, we would LOVE you for this), or some other unique map type, even relic run or alter map. From B, C or D you could not go to either of those 3 maps, they are considered as one layer within the cave. Each subsequent layer in the caves would make a jump only once to the next tier of levels building towards the Hall of Heroes. Keep the map names the same so people know where they're at, but add under the map name what type it is.

Visual Example:

Example of what I mean would be:
Underworld --- Underworld --- Underworld
(Dodge Ball)---(Annhilation)--- (Relic Run)
Et al, etc. Map types not specifically those three, though they may be included.

This way each are very different, but would respectively tell you what you were on, even though the maps are noticeably different. This system would require players actually be good rather than the build, especially with dodge ball being randomly thrown in there. It'd be great fun playing 8vs8 team dodge ball every now and then for a change of pace. :heart:

Alright, I hope I covered everything. I think I covered everything I wanted to!