Curse

Franco Power · Jan 05, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

You said that about Alliance Battles. And Hero Battles.

Can you make it a hatrick of over hyping something only for it to turn out to be utter cack or will you actually get it right for once?

Actually screw that, I forgot about "exciting new map changes". You've allready got the hatrick, can you drive for continuing excellence in mediocrity or will a decent idea come out for once?

You can't argue with Gray over that (bold), If you don't like AB and HB it's your opinion, there are hundreds of people that enjoy AB as there are people that enjoy HB, it's all about taste, you can't expect something that will please everyone that's impossible.

Earendil · Jan 05, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

All I hear from high rankers here is "make HA fun/less boring again for us. Do not cater to PvErs willing to PvP and HA beginners in general - they don't deserve it since they don't know how to PvP anyway ". This position is selfish, limited and, most important, highly unlikely to be considered.

If you read Gaile`s posts - the key word is "critical mass" (search it on google if you don't know what this means). IMO, Anet noticed a diminising trend in HA playing people over the last year. There are two causes for this:

a) the "old" players start to leave for whatever reason (real life, moving to other forms of PVP or games, natural los of interest in a game you played till the end)

b) "new" players have a very limited access to this form of PVP (and dont give me the "go learn the hard way as we did" - the state of HA is completely different now form what it was when you people started).

As a result - the number of players went under the critical mass where HA could have sustained itself. It became a closed playing ground for a few (meaning a few hundreds) high level PvPers.

6v6 and heroway were an attempt to correct this. It did not work (though there were more playing back when heroway was allowed - poor teams for sure, but more). If they would simply revert to 8v8 and maybe improve the maps / conditions, there would be a few hundreds of top people coming back for a short while, yet the problem would stay the same.

I strongly suspect the automated tournaments in GvG are intended for top HAers, while they want to keep HA as a low/middle level PvP arena.

So - instead of stating your anger, frustration and demands - try to offer something: ideas on how to make HA more popular among "newer" people while keeping the top level part viable. Otherwise it won't pass.

phasola · Jan 05, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

All I hear from high rankers here is "make HA fun/less boring again for us.

We all know it's not easy to get into PvP. Anet tried to make it easier and failed miserably. Compare the number of the people that left to those who came to HA. I'm not saying new blood is bad, but when 80% of the population left because Anet tried to make new players happy one should start to wonder how good was that idea in the first place.
Sugesstion : Make HA 8v8. :-B

Cass · Jan 05, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

All I hear from high rankers here is "make HA fun/less boring again for us. Do not cater to PvErs willing to PvP and HA beginners in general - they don't deserve it since they don't know how to PvP anyway ". This position is selfish, limited and, most important, highly unlikely to be considered.

If you read Gaile`s posts - the key word is "critical mass" (search it on google if you don't know what this means). IMO, Anet noticed a diminising trend in HA playing people over the last year. There are two causes for this:

a) the "old" players start to leave for whatever reason (real life, moving to other forms of PVP or games, natural los of interest in a game you played till the end)

b) "new" players have a very limited access to this form of PVP (and dont give me the "go learn the hard way as we did" - the state of HA is completely different now form what it was when you people started).

As a result - the number of players went under the critical mass where HA could have sustained itself. It became a closed playing ground for a few (meaning a few hundreds) high level PvPers.

6v6 and heroway were an attempt to correct this. It did not work (though there were more playing back when heroway was allowed - poor teams for sure, but more). If they would simply revert to 8v8 and maybe improve the maps / conditions, there would be a few hundreds of top people coming back for a short while, yet the problem would stay the same.

I strongly suspect the automated tournaments in GvG are intended for top HAers, while they want to keep HA as a low/middle level PvP arena.

So - instead of stating your anger, frustration and demands - try to offer something: ideas on how to make HA more popular among "newer" people while keeping the top level part viable. Otherwise it won't pass.

1) Making something 'easier' doesn't necessarily increase the number of people wanting to do it. The lack of players in heroway 6v6 is proof of this. Also imagine shards and ectos dropping like cloth and iron. Nobody would want FoW armor anymore and FoW and UW would see few players indeed. The harder it is to win in HA, the more precious each point of fame.

2) It is a myth that HA is somehow inaccessible to new players. Nothing stops you from teaming up in there with others (guildies? friends?) and start kicking ass. The problem only comes when new players want a free ride, and expect veteran players to take them along to high fame land. Imagine again a PvE scenario. When you arrived in Piken Square, were you expecting a W/Mo Lvl20 to pick you up and ferry you straight to the Lich? No, you probably teamed up with other Lvl11's and a hench or two and got sobered up by Charr Axe Wielders. Overcoming those required some experience and when you did, you felt a sense of accomplishment.

In summary, HA needs to be a fun and interesting type of PvP, with adequate prestige/monetary reward. Farming, bots, and small team-related build wars go against this, and hence it fails. Don't make it "easy", make it fun (again).

dgb · Jan 05, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum

You can't argue with Gray over that (bold), If you don't like AB and HB it's your opinion, there are hundreds of people that enjoy AB as there are people that enjoy HB, it's all about taste, you can't expect something that will please everyone that's impossible.

I can't expect something that will please everyone, true. But Gaile has said three times now that we (as in the PVP community) will be overwhelmed by the new game-modes/changes and they've turned out to be cack to the majority of the PVP community. When the majority is either under-whelmed or simply doesn't care, you have to admit that her predictions have failed. When this happens, people tend to view further predictions with scepticism. Given the state of HB at launch and the pitiful state of AB currently, it's pretty obvious that hardly anyone in the serious PVP community takes them seriously.

I actually like the AB idea, it's just the implementation is horrific.

Bastian · Jan 05, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

I strongly suspect the automated tournaments in GvG are intended for top HAers, while they want to keep HA as a low/middle level PvP arena.

So - instead of stating your anger, frustration and demands - try to offer something: ideas on how to make HA more popular among "newer" people while keeping the top level part viable. Otherwise it won't pass.

No offense, but this has to be one of the dumbest things I have read on this thread.

1A) HA is supposed to be high level PvP. What, you expect GvG to be the only high level PvP anymore. By the way, what happened to TA, RA, AB, HB? What are they supposed to represent?

1B) HA also has the added achievement of obtaining the favor of the gods, not even GvG does that! That in my mind = high level PvP.

2) You want to know what makes HA popular to new people? A shiny emote of a deer, wolf, tiger, etc...

3) My guess is that I am not alone in saying that the way I started PvP was random arenas. That got me interested in decent builds (not to mention the faction to unlock it). Then came Team Arenas - where I actually tried to put some synergy into a group and make it work as a team. Next, I wanted a shiny emote to rank spike Wammo's that called everyone noobs when you called their mending. So, I went to HA - and guess what, I didn't know what to do. But that didn't stop me. I found PUGs that I could get into like Iway and BSpike, not to mention the fact that using a monk in some situations got me in balanced builds. From there I found the guild that I am currently in, started really browsing forums - reading up on the metagame - builds, counter-builds, etc... That is how someone gets into HA. Its not overnight, and it shouldn't be - this is PvP at a high level and only the strong survive. The thing that I know that makes everyone similar in HA is the dedication to the game and continually improving yourself in order to get better at HA and PvP. If you're not willing to do that then go back to RA, TA, PvE, AB, HB, etc... its not my fault you don't have the dedication - look in the mirror for once.

leguma · Jan 05, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I agreed, and said that we would not simply change the numbers and consider everything solved.

I find this statement particularly amusing in light of past events. Sadly enough, while many people are angry at Gaile, they are actually angry at the position she occupies. While I understand why a company needs PR people to spin the BS, A.net needs to understand that players got burned big time, and to make things even worse, we were told that these changes were made because WE wanted them.

Of course this time people are going to be paranoid, and the fact that A.net has annouced significnat changes to the GvG system as well does not breed additional comfort. The flaming seen over the past hours is a clear indication that the community is on edge, and if they don't wise up and play this like it were Thylenol, things are only going to get worse with time.

Give the comunity something solid and reassuring, preferably from someone that holds some weight in the PvP community because the crystal ball aproach does not work.

Earendil · Jan 05, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

No offense, but this has to be one of the dumbest things I have read on this thread.

1A) HA is supposed to be high level PvP. What, you expect GvG to be the only high level PvP anymore. By the way, what happened to TA, RA, AB, HB? What are they supposed to represent?

1B) HA also has the added achievement of obtaining the favor of the gods, not even GvG does that! That in my mind = high level PvP.

No offense taken. This is actually the main issue about HA - is it meant to be high level PvP or not ? The answer to this question does not belong to me or you but to the developpers.

Originally, my guess is HA was seen as intermediate PvP, passage from 4x4 to GvG. The fact that you needed to win HoH and get a Sigil (before sigil merchant) to actually start GvG ing is enough proof (I remember threads back then where people would accuse top level guilds of preventing access to GvG for lower guilds by chain holding HoH repeatedly). HA maps were also modeling different situations met in GvG: 8v8 flagstand battles, Flag running, Guild lord killing etc., just like desert missions in PvE were modelling HA scenarios. It was all part of a continuum (in the developpers mind)

Fact is people turned it into a top level PvP form, in their hunt for new shiny emotes. It makes little sense IMO to play HA again after you won halls 100-1000 times - its time to move to the next level.

This change from midlevel to top level PvP was ok for Anet as long as the population was large enough to support it - meaning there were entry doors for new blood (IWAY and various spike builds being the best example). Not any more.

Imagine how fun GvG would be if you would be automatically paired with a top 200 guild regardless of your own rank ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

2) You want to know what makes HA popular to new people? A shiny emote of a deer, wolf, tiger, etc...

Actually winning makes any PvP experience popular. New people have little chances of winning in the current form of HA, where few, experienced team play to get rank 10-12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

3) My guess is that I am not alone in saying that the way I started PvP was random arenas. That got me interested in decent builds (not to mention the faction to unlock it). Then came Team Arenas - where I actually tried to put some synergy into a group and make it work as a team. Next, I wanted a shiny emote to rank spike Wammo's that called everyone noobs when you called their mending. So, I went to HA - and guess what, I didn't know what to do. But that didn't stop me. I found PUGs that I could get into like Iway and BSpike, not to mention the fact that using a monk in some situations got me in balanced builds. From there I found the guild that I am currently in, started really browsing forums - reading up on the metagame - builds, counter-builds, etc... That is how someone gets into HA. Its not overnight, and it shouldn't be - this is PvP at a high level and only the strong survive. The thing that I know that makes everyone similar in HA is the dedication to the game and continually improving yourself in order to get better at HA and PvP. If you're not willing to do that then go back to RA, TA, PvE, AB, HB, etc... its not my fault you don't have the dedication - look in the mirror for once.

Thats a nice success story and I'm glad for you. If this would have happened to a lot of people I doubt there would have been a 6v6 change.

As for the mentality of "this is PvP at a high level and only the strong survive", "go back to PvE" and the personal attacks - I wont comment.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 05, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Note: I skimmed the past one and a half pages of posts.

Seriously, why not just change it back to 8v8? That way, you (anet) wouldn't have to go through and change all the maps, objectives, etc., you'd just need to change party size. Also, practically everyone wants it back, could we have our way just once? As for those of you still bringing up the rank debate, two things. First, get over it. Second, 8v8 is much more newbie friendly than 6v6, since you have (and this isn't a build diss, it is a simple fact) things like bloodspike and iway, which are much easier to run and get fame with. For the love of god anet, just bring back 8v8.

Earendil · Jan 05, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Note: I skimmed the past one and a half pages of posts.

Seriously, why not just change it back to 8v8? That way, you (anet) wouldn't have to go through and change all the maps, objectives, etc., you'd just need to change party size. Also, practically everyone wants it back, could we have our way just once? As for those of you still bringing up the rank debate, two things. First, get over it. Second, 8v8 is much more newbie friendly than 6v6, since you have (and this isn't a build diss, it is a simple fact) things like bloodspike and iway, which are much easier to run and get fame with. For the love of god anet, just bring back 8v8.

I must admit you are right here on several points. 8v8 is more newbie friendly for two reasons: easier to play FotMs (I think HA survived for half a year only on IWAY and spikes that were bringing in new people); the fact that it's easier to compensate in an 8 person build the errors of one player. However, when they changed to 6v6 they said it was meant to bring fresh blood - they had the statistics that probably told them that even the IWAY perfusion was not enough.

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 05, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Note: I skimmed the past one and a half pages of posts.

Seriously, why not just change it back to 8v8? That way, you (anet) wouldn't have to go through and change all the maps, objectives, etc., you'd just need to change party size. Also, practically everyone wants it back, could we have our way just once? As for those of you still bringing up the rank debate, two things. First, get over it. Second, 8v8 is much more newbie friendly than 6v6, since you have (and this isn't a build diss, it is a simple fact) things like bloodspike and iway, which are much easier to run and get fame with. For the love of god anet, just bring back 8v8.

I deem all of this true. A few skills might need minor balancing for 8v8, but nothing big. I really don't understand why they won't bring it back. She was spammed with "8v8 please" in id2, the polls say 75-80% want it, and there's more good reasons than bad to bring it back. I just don't understand it.

Lorekeeper · Jan 05, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

yeh i dont want to sound rude or anything... my previous posts have been attempts at constructive suggestions... and whether theyre acknowledged or not... doesnt matter but i just have to say this.

thank you, whoever just reminded me of the wonderful

''exciting new map changes''

to put it bluntly... was this a joke?

i must admit... the implementation of ''P'' and reconnects out of the blue has hugely refuelled a little faith in you guys.

But @ gaile... i hope its not too difficult to understand the general pessimism and impatience of the HA community in light of whats happened before with regards to how HA has been treated. Im not an unreasonable person but those HA changes were pitifully short of the promised mark.

Its a new year though... and many people see new years as a time to wipe the slate clean and move on.

good luck anet, theres still some faith left in this tombs player.

Bastian · Jan 05, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

No offense taken. This is actually the main issue about HA - is it meant to be high level PvP or not ? The answer to this question does not belong to me or you but to the developpers

I am humbled by the fact that while both our original posts were a little combatative that your response was very well written and contained little negativity.

I do believe, however, that any PvP area is only going to be as competetive as the players who enter those arenas make it. This is something that the develops (although they may have had certain intentions) cannot really change. What they should be doing, though, is making sure that the balance in these arenas remains equal by making sure that the skill level - and not primarily the build - is the main factor in winning.

Additionally, I think that it is good for there to be experienced/strong players in HoH. This way, by playing against them - you learn. By slowly attaining their level - you learn. And if/when you beat them - you have a great sense of accomplishment. Of course, this is going to require a high amount of dedication. I don't think I ever won halls before I was rank 3. However, this did not deter me. I think there is a certain type of person that can be dedicated to PvP and they are the ones that will naturally come to halls and be successful (although perhaps gradually).

I believe we agree that 6v6 did not have the result that was originally intended. I also believe that there should be a better way to "introduce" new players to HA. Perhaps some sort of in-game walkthrough or tutorial to introduce the maps and certain strategies would be good. Also, some better form of observer mode would work well also - where instead of having to study each person to find out what build they are running - it could be shown on the screen so new people trying to get ideas of what to run can have a better idea of what has worked for others.

I understand that it is difficult to get into HA, but I think it is more difficult now than it was during 8v8. Also, I think that currently - people that are new to HA are not getting much experience in regards to tactics, skills, or real builds. Instead, they are running into SF and jagged bones - these things do not set them up much for the future of PvP (especially GvG).

Additionally, the "go back to RA, PvE, etc..." was not intended for you. Instead, it was intended for anyone who thinks that PvP is going to be easy and is not willing to put in the dedicatioon needed to improve themselves.

Tiyuri · Jan 05, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Something to consider..

Maybe share your thoughts with the players before changes are in place for once? I'm sorry to say this but it's evident that Anet doesn't always know what the player base wants. Whilst I'm sure you're trying your best, the only way to be sure is to tell us what ideas you have in mind before implementing them.

The fact is Gaile, if you don't tell us, and you mess this one up. I will leave, many of the posters in this thread will leave, and I'm sure a lot of non posting players will also leave. I'm not willing to wait another 6 months if this change is a poor one, just to start enjoying the game again. This is an unrealistic expectation of any player base.

Why don't you lay out EXACTLY what you have in mind, before it's been decided, why don't YOU guys brain storm with us for a change. And we'll tell you if your ideas are worth anything or not before you start writing any code.

Think about it.
Discuss it with someone who has the authority to do it.

Thanks.

Lorekeeper · Jan 05, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

i would have put it more politely... but i agree with the above.

it would be awesome if there was some system where anet threw out a bunch of ideas and work in progress concepts to us... and let us have fun either tearing them apart or supporting them.

after all... they dont have to listen to everything everyone has to say on public forums... all this will give them is yet another source of opinions (good or bad)... sorta like public beta on paper.

so it would work like this... if i was community relations officer...

''hey guys, we are currently going through some developing stages of some skill balances and changes to HA... we thought it would be cool to release a collection of the most interesting changes we are thinking about... so please feel free to post your thoughts on them. We cant promise to adopt everyones views and suggestions but feel confident in knowing that everything you say helps us to decide what needs to be done.''

wait a few days or a week... read through the posts... summarise the most convincing arguments to the dev team.. note down dev teams response... rely response to forum community.

voila... game developer-public relations.

but i kinda thought they had alpha testers for this >< would be interesting to know what the development process actually consisted of.

Nurse With Wound · Jan 05, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

I wasn't polite?

The alpha testers they have are so unrepresentative it's crazy.

Alpha testers fail a lot. I think the PVP community is seriously underrepresented there. I think they have lots of theoreticians who never actually play certain parts of the game, and have their crazy ideas about improving the game, which usually fail badly. I dont want to flame the alpha team, but whoever in there supported the HA change, did a serious screw-up.

JR · Jan 05, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Alpha testers fail a lot. I think the PVP community is seriously underrepresented there. I think they have lots of theoreticians who never actually play certain parts of the game, and have their crazy ideas about improving the game, which usually fail badly. I dont want to flame the alpha team, but whoever in there supported the HA change, did a serious screw-up.

I'd refrain from commenting on things you don't really know about.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 05, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Well, if they change it back to 8v8, they lose a lot of face by re-rolling a change (only one they ever re-rolled to my knowledge was semi-re-rolling the big damage icon thingy). I'm guessing this is the only thing holding them back. Also, running every idea by the player community would... not work. With a community like the GW one, it is too large, will never reach a consensus, and many are too immature. Running the major ideas by might work.

ratchet is god · Jan 05, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

heres how its gonna fly...... 8v8 or u lose a customer its that easy... and simple 6v6 is trash and it is FotM everywhere its all it is and if u dont feel like being a noob and running it u get rolled (hence Zergway Spirit spam bullsh*nobody like 6v6 but the pve short bus tards that are not even r3 yet

keke_ · Jan 05, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

8v8 change whould solve most of it.