Curse

Orphan Anthem · Dec 31, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

If rank is so meaningless then why is its removal met with such resistance?

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 31, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orphan Anthem

If rank is so meaningless then why is its removal met with such resistance?

You're still going on with removing rank? Let's try this one more time.

People play HA to get fame. Fame leads to rank, and rank leads to emotes. Emotes are used by typing /rank.

Usually the better the rank, the more experienced you are. Hence you can get in better groups.

If rank was removed, you'll have a few problems:

1. Most high ranks will quit HA or GW.
2. People who play with guilds and friends will STILL play with guilds and friends.
3. There will be nothing to even play HA for if fame is entirely removed.
4. You'd be better off PvEing for drops than winning halls for a 5k sigil.

If fame was gone, what's the point of playing? And what part of this do you not understand.

Nero_Fayth · Dec 31, 2006, 04:07 AM // 04:07

In response to some of orphan's posts, I strongly disagree with some of the statements made. Rank discrimination is in halls for a reason. Experienced people enjoy playing with other EXPERIENCED people. Rank is one "standard" by which players can measure each others' competence in the format that is HA. People WORK for their rank and fame, it isn't handed to them on a silver platter. It is NOT difficult to "break the surface of the game." Unranked groups are unranked for a reason, simply that they have not done as much halls. As I recall, posted in one of the stickies in this forum was help for unranked/lower ranked players. Included were suggestions something along the line of "Go with a group of people you know, GET to know people, and play with them often." Everyone else worked for their fame, and I see no valid, ethical, or logical reasoning in some of your suggestions. But back to topic before this thread dies of criticism.

I agree 100% with an earlier post which included in it's topic, the inclusion of multiple objectives in single maps, in order to diversify the builds which are played. Then again, it could also have cons, but no change is going to be perfect by the standards of the GW playerbase. Could the builds we call balanced now be referred to as meta in the future? Yes. There isn't really a way to say for sure, but I think that in the end, halls is in need of patching up.

As far as environmental effects are concerned, they have been mentioned repeatedly. I feel that if implemented, the ensuing builds would more than likely be suited to overcome them, or take advantage of them. If they were to be added, it would be to everyone's advantage if it was done so VERY carefully.

The fame system, as it is, I feel is fine. Wins are adjusted accordingly, without being overly generous or constricting. If you do skip a match or two, why should you be rewarded extra?

I have been unable to think of anything that has not already been stated in this thread, but I do think there are several *key* areas which beg to be addressed.

MetaGame in Halls~Yes people do run the same things in halls, there is not much that can be done to prevent this, it is inevitable. I am not sure what position Anet takes on this.

Playerbase~Hardcore and casual gamers often have varying opinions and thoughts of what pvp should be. Is a consensus possible on what is best for Hero's Ascent as a whole?? Perhaps. I will try to refrain from expressing my personal opinions/criticism from this point on, as I feel it only detracts from the purpose of this thread.

Environment~With all of the changes to halls, any future changes would do best to arrive concisely. Careful and gradual implementation of change (pardon the repetitiveness) would be for the good of everyone. Rank has come to mean little skill/experience wise, but sentimentally fame is quite different---- Many people do HA for the emotes, I know I do. They have personal value, when you consider all of the time people have spent working for them, toiling over their keyboards, laughing, crying, getting to know others, and generally having a great time. That's why most people play games right? You can be competitive and have fun at the same time. The feeling you get after beating a good guild on a relic run, because you managed to out think them, is awesome. Getting that last monk down and seeing faction fly across your screen as your ghostly caps is as well.

If anyone else has any other **general** ideas on what they think could be improved in HA, please post. Perhaps it's time we started looking at the bigger picture, and less at the details.

What is going to be best for Guild Wars if any changes are made to Hero's Ascent? Who are they going to affect? Why should we implement them, or have them implemented? In what manner should they be introduced? I encourage you all, once again to answer these questions before drawing any conclusions or jumping to criticize the posts of one another. The reason I am here ( I cannot speak for others ) is to improve the competitive PvP environment that is Hero's Ascent, and bring an enjoyable playing experience to everyone's screen.

~Nero

defrule · Dec 31, 2006, 04:07 AM // 04:07

At the moment, excluding faction from the view because it's a universal thing, every winner in HA gets something regardless of being in Underworld or the Hall and that is fame.

Suppose I remove fame/rank. Then what do you get for winning? The only people who get something are the hall winners and it's not like that chest is great.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 31, 2006, 04:16 AM // 04:16

OK, so far I've seen several posts regarding something I find rather pointless. Some people (no, not just you orphan, so I'm not flaming you) seem to think that if higher ranked teams were matched against higher ranked teams and vice versa, it would be easier to let new people into HA. I believe this is wrong for several reasons. First, you learn more from an upper echelon loss (assuming its not like 30 second steamroll) than a lower echelon win. Second, there are lower ranked people playing with higher ranked people (ZOMFG!?!?!?!). Third, HA is *supposed* to be a high level PvP tournament. If there are rank matchings, it's going to simply result in the higher level teams having RIDICULOUSLY easy wins in halls as they will meet lower ranked teams there that simply weren't meant to make it that far. A rank matching system will also result in more teams making it farther (well.... I guess, not entirely sure on this point) leading to longer wait times in vault, etc. IMHO, it just wouldn't work.

Apok Omen · Dec 31, 2006, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Rank is not the problem. That is basically the answer to anyone posting here, requesting Anet to get rid of it so that they and others like them OR others they know that can't get into a PuG in hopes that unRanked groups will pop-up.

If anything, Fame/Rank is the short peice of thread holding HA together. Rank isn't an exclusive club that only certain people get into and others can't; it's a reward for taking your time to devise builds in order to gain fame.

6v6 basically wiped out 50% (or more) of the top players playing HA. Anet made it this way because they wanted to reach out to all of the complaints from those who didn't even attempt to take time to make a team (and because they saw the big hit on the DOUBLE FAME WEEKEND)

Now, Anet is slowly restoring HA with the previous update, which eliminated 1 man teams and the now-humorous err7. This means one thing: we (the community who is experienced in the field) are slowly but steadily (and hopefully) reaching to Anet.

Yunas Ele · Dec 31, 2006, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orphan Anthem

If rank is so meaningless then why is its removal met with such resistance?

Because its a personal achievement. Go to pve forums and ask them what they would think if you removed all fow armor, nice skin weapons, etc. They don't mean anything... oh and remove all the other pve titles cuz they are meaingless too...

gasmaskman · Dec 31, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Because its a personal achievement. Go to pve forums and ask them what they would think if you removed all fow armor, nice skin weapons, etc. They don't mean anything... oh and remove all the other pve titles cuz they are meaingless too...

Well, about the armor - that is so true.

But it has the same armor stats! Not having FoW and having FoW is the same thing. Obviously it's not. Someone with the title of rank 9 will feel more accomplishment over when they had rank 6. It's simple accomplishment that makes people want rank to stay.

Orphan Anthem · Dec 31, 2006, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

OK, so far I've seen several posts regarding something I find rather pointless. Some people (no, not just you orphan, so I'm not flaming you) seem to think that if higher ranked teams were matched against higher ranked teams and vice versa, it would be easier to let new people into HA. I believe this is wrong for several reasons. First, you learn more from an upper echelon loss (assuming its not like 30 second steamroll) than a lower echelon win. Second, there are lower ranked people playing with higher ranked people (ZOMFG!?!?!?!). Third, HA is *supposed* to be a high level PvP tournament. If there are rank matchings, it's going to simply result in the higher level teams having RIDICULOUSLY easy wins in halls as they will meet lower ranked teams there that simply weren't meant to make it that far. A rank matching system will also result in more teams making it farther (well.... I guess, not entirely sure on this point) leading to longer wait times in vault, etc. IMHO, it just wouldn't work.

Personally i am of the opinion that the only time i really learn something is when im challanged not beaten into a inch of my life. Basicly with a possable fame/rank matching system new players get a slower breaking in then they normally would. Meaning that they would be more inclined to play on to gain those essential skills. This kind of change obviously wont sit well with most seasoned HA players because it would make things more challanging for them.

This wouldnt mean the system would go into the hall just maybe the first 4 maps just enough to give new players a sence of accomplishment and not a headache and a temper.

Bread Fan · Dec 31, 2006, 10:12 AM // 10:12

You just aren't getting it orphan...

PvE players get ectos/shards/running here & there titles and PvP players get a different assortment. Deal with it.

Kratos Angel · Dec 31, 2006, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Hummm I'm not for the idea of testing 8v8 during several weeks, atm HA is for me 'paused', if it comes back in 8v8 I'll be back for sure, if they remove, reset ranks, I'll stop it definitely for sure.
Be aware that HA is for pvp player what is DoA (Domain of Anguish) for pve players (from Nightfall ofc), a high level area with long time reward.

Orphan Anthem · Dec 31, 2006, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

You just aren't getting it orphan...

PvE players get ectos/shards/running here & there titles and PvP players get a different assortment. Deal with it.

Yet a learning curve was crated for pve why not for pvp. Please these flames are getting worse and worse i havent yet heard a decient enough reason for me to change my mind except against a fame whipe.

tacitus · Dec 31, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orphan Anthem

If rank is so meaningless then why is its removal met with such resistance?

well my comment from page 1 of this thread.

Quote:

No doubt people in this thread will start on two main issues

1) roll back of fame/rank.
I dont want this to happen and believe it would be unfair for this to happen, people have spent a lot of time building up there fame and rank. There are times when getting a pve group is hard and people wearing FOW armour or have pve titles get in groups easier does this mean we should roll back all armour and pve titles? Obviously not and this applies to the pvp titles as well it just wouldnt be fair.

I would only accept removal of rank if it went along with a wipe of all armour above 1.5k and a clear out of all storage and materials so that everyone has a fair chance to get fow.

I mean if people continue to call for this soon people will post in pve sections saying how unfair it was that people farmed before the nerf of prot bond, group scatter update etc etc and there should be a fow roll back.

Lorekeeper · Dec 31, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

i would still be the player i am today if my rank was wiped out. So for all intents and purposes i would still get guested for gvg... still get invited to join HA teams... still get asked for advice on builds etc. The only thing that would change is my feeling towards Anet who had just wiped out more than a years worth of effort spent on my part EARNING my rank and fame without COMPLAINING about the fact i had to invest TIME becoming GOOD at the game.

When i was rank 0 i played with other rank 0 players... so what if i couldnt compete with the rank 9+ teams... what do you expect? Grow up. You have to realise everyone started off at the same point... we didnt magically become rank 9+.

Losing to organised highly experienced teams only served to motivate me to keep playing... hoping one day that i would learn enough to play amongst them instead of under their feet.

As time went on... i rose to rank 1... 2... 3... slowly slowly... developing my skills and learning new classes because back in those days builds tended to have more variety...i never stuck to playing fotms like people do nowadays. i can admit that i was pugging all the way up to rank 6 because i couldnt be bothered to socialise with other players, at that point i was too interested in just learning how to become the best player i can be and i wasnt really into the whole social aspect of an online game... since all my games before gw were single player... and gw is my first online game.
It took a VERY long time to get to rank 6 because of this pugging...but after that i started to play regularly with some people and so my pvp friendlist started to evolve and my fame runs went into the hundreds instead of the dozens. By playing in the same group over and over my name spread around... until other groups and guilds would invite me to their teams. And so i was added to other peoples friendslists. I never explicitly tried to get onto these peoples lists... i just made sure me and my friends were doing well beating good teams and winning halls and everything else just fell into place. And thankfully we were good enough to do so.

i can safely say that i am part of the tiny minority of players who did not play iway or bloodspike. So i feel like my rank and fame is of huge value... because of the things i had to go through to earn it. Its a massive disappointment to see the multitude of rank9+ players today who show as much skill and experience as i did at rank 5, but thats an issue for another thread about what fotm fame farming has done to the value of rank.

if my fame was wiped... my future presence in HA would depend on 1 thing.

change HA back to 8vs8 and if my old tombs friends come back and i see familiar names back in the lobbies.

Ill be back.

ill be at rank 0... but i still wont play with random rank 0 players so if you want to wipe fame so that all the current rankless players get an easy break... you are very very wrong.

the simple fact is, ive already got people to play with, people i know are good... regardless of their title or tiger emote. i dont need to grow my friendlist... well... maybe if my old tombs friends didnt come back... i might have to. But again... if i decide to run an unranked pug... i will probably have very high expectations of people who want to join... so unless you are good you wont be in it for long. i wont have my tiger emote anymore but i will still have the tigers mentality.

how can you say there isnt a learning curve for pvp? there is one... its just hugely stacked against new players because of the inherent faults of the 6vs6 metagame.

2nd map broken tower between 3 teams... one of them is a rank 1-3 pug.

gg

its not the fault of the rank system by any stretch of the imagination.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 31, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacitus

well my comment from page 1 of this thread.

I would only accept removal of rank if it went along with a wipe of all armour above 1.5k and a clear out of all storage and materials so that everyone has a fair chance to get fow.

I mean if people continue to call for this soon people will post in pve sections saying how unfair it was that people farmed before the nerf of prot bond, group scatter update etc etc and there should be a fow roll back.

Yea, pretty much. Removing rank/rolling it back would be pretty much socialist, and something similar would need to take place in PvE to make it valid in PvP. I got an idea, lets roll back champ and glad points too. Skill unlocks and faction? gone. Everyone from the same starting point, lets make this Guild Wars: The Soviet Union edition! Note: to keep this in effect, we need periodic rollbacks every few hours to make sure the new players have a chance.

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 31, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orphan Anthem

Yet a learning curve was crated for pve why not for pvp. Please these flames are getting worse and worse i havent yet heard a decient enough reason for me to change my mind except against a fame whipe.

We already gave you plenty of reasons. Here's a way for you to understand.

1. High ranks will quit.
2. Low ranks still won't find groups because they have no one on G and N.
3. Low ranks who still get pissed at not finding groups will quit.
4. Whats the point of playing HA without getting fame / regaining what you had?
5. Communism doesn't work.
6. A fame wipe would probably kill off HA for good.
7. If you still say you haven't heard a decent reason, go play TA.

Lightforge · Dec 31, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

The only change that I want to see to HA is to the final map. It would be nice if the last map switched between different game types. Right now it's always an altar hold so there are alot of builds that are extremely good at holding but cant do anything else and they hope for hall skips. If the final map alternated between altar hold, relic run, annihilate or any other gametypes (if Anet wants to make new ones), the builds that specialised in holding and almost impossible to kill because all they have is defense would be useless in HA. I just don't like how so many builds are focussed on altar capping and holding when HA is about every gametype. It's supposed to be the ultimate test of a team's skill, not whoever can hold altars better.

defrule · Dec 31, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Some people have suggested that the Hall have different objectives and it should change each match. This may cause problems if favour remains liked to it. Consider a team trying to hold now and one trying to hold when the hall alternates objectives, the second case is potentially harder and so the probability of the holding team being throw off is higher. If teams are having trouble getting a holding streak then getting 5 wins in the halls might not be the most viable thing and so favour will change much less and PvE communities suffer. Solution, break the link.

Yunas Ele · Dec 31, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

I just started playing football yesterday but they won't let me play in the super bowl. What is this rank elitism!?!?!?!

Actually on second thought my example fails. Getting a couple of people on your "G" and "N" list isn't difficult, were as getting to play in the super bowl is...

Honestly though, Orphan, if they reset fame you still won't get a team. The good people will still press "N" and "G" to make teams and you still won't get into these teams. In fact, it'll probably be even harder to get a team because a lot of people will quit meaning even less people pugging. Seriously if you spent all the time you use to come up with these silly ideas to "fix" HA playing HA itself and building up a friends list then your problem would be solved...

Randomway Ftw · Dec 31, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightforge

The only change that I want to see to HA is to the final map. It would be nice if the last map switched between different game types. Right now it's always an altar hold so there are alot of builds that are extremely good at holding but cant do anything else and they hope for hall skips. If the final map alternated between altar hold, relic run, annihilate or any other gametypes (if Anet wants to make new ones), the builds that specialised in holding and almost impossible to kill because all they have is defense would be useless in HA. I just don't like how so many builds are focussed on altar capping and holding when HA is about every gametype. It's supposed to be the ultimate test of a team's skill, not whoever can hold altars better.

Halls has been an altar map forever, the point of halls is to cap the altar and defend it against the subsequent teams. There is no build that is impossible to kill, some are very difficult but those were all created as a result of skill imbalances or bugs, which have since been fixed. Sometimes you will lose because you lack the skills to defeat a team, this has been made worse by 6v6 "buildwars". Please name the builds that are currently used that you are complaining about.