Curse

Rui · Dec 28, 2006, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Seriously, during the 6 vs 6 weekend there was quite a bit of variety.

At the beggining everything has to be new dont u think? what about now? all u can see in ha 6v6 is spirit spamm, jagged bones, unranked sf and some balanced with 2/3 earth eles with sand storm...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

If 6 vs 6 continued on the path that it started out on, with good players who weren't GvGing running builds that kill things and have interrupts, I think 6 vs 6 would be a much nicer place than it is now.

Good and lots of players were there because it was double fame but everyone soon realised how crap 6v6 is.

tacitus · Dec 28, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

When talking about 6v6 over 8v8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Less Blood Spike. Less IWAY. Less cookie cutter charactar templates that 95%+ of players were running exactly like everyone else ran them, like CG Rangers, Warders, SB/Infusers, RC/Prots, WoH Monks, Blood Spikers, IWAY Warriors, Oath Trappers... Need I go on?

You think 6v6 has/had no cookie cutter builds? searing flame eles, sandstorm else, jagged bones necros, incoming paragons, Vim trappers need i go on?

Its harder to make 6v6 build with everything you need for HA than it was with 8 people. This means that far more people copy a successful build in the 6 man teams than before.

Oh if that list was going to be endless would that not mean there was a lot of variety in 8v8? something that is lacking in 6v6 atm

Randomway Ftw · Dec 28, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

I don't think altar maps are the problem, the only reason people are running highly defensive builds now is the simple fact that 6v6 builds lack utility, you must either kill the other team before they kill you, (TY Grenth), or pack enough defense to allow your team to function through the constant daze, and enchant removal from rao thumpers and Grenth dervishes.

I see a lot of supposed "holding" groups forming, now these are not real holding teams, because they are made up of low ranked or unranked people, who want to follow in the successes of the people who held with dual paragons.

Now i see a lot of people who call any build that they cannot kill a lame holding build, I have a question to ask, what in your opinion constitutes a holding build? Fertile Season, Aegis, Prot Spitit, a build that SF cannot roll in 1 minute, a build who's ghost is enchanted and can survive constant meteor shower/SF spam?

In 8v8 builds had a large amount of defense, but the also had a large amount of utility, but this defense was never allowed to operate free of obstacles, shutdown was very common in 8v8 builds, dual migraine, choking Gas, and energy denial, were common ways of disabling monks, and other forms of defense. These builds had room for utility as well so you would not gimp your build by taking them.

Now before ANET goes about blowing up HA with huge changes, they should give us an opportunity to play the game mode that we all enjoyed prior to 6v6, a game mode that despite some small, often exagerated flaws, was played and enjoyed by many.

allience · Dec 28, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

i really think Anet should bring back 8v8 in heroes ascent. it will allow us more diversity to create builds. we have already 8 professions and it's annoying to not be able to use our imagination because we're limited to 48 skills.

and let's face it, many ppl were very upset when you guys made 6v6. i think bringing back 8v8 will make most ppl happy this time. it's already an improvement that you guys made the party require 4 human players. i'm sure 8v8 will bring back the life in heroes ascent.

about the maps, i think they are ok but i still don't get it why you guys took our burrial mounds. i think you should just shrink it for 2 teams and put it back

i haven't lost hope yet, i really hope 8v8 will be back

Kratos Angel · Dec 28, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Ho well very good idea for posting this thread. I'm an ex fan of Ha and was really kind of it (playing in there all days) but I nearly stopped it with the arrival of 6v6 it was : "Omg what Anet has done ? Is it a joke ??".
6v6 suxx as you have 2 players less, that implies less skills to have. So how do players react ? They play simple, easy builds like SF (well I admit ALL players use and use thiss damned skill everywhere in GW, can't believe it isnt nerfed yet), holding builds (yeah let's all play 6 monks spike, heal, spike, heal, yeah come on we won after 30 minutes match ! woot).
As someone said before me It is full offensive or full defensive build, it has just killed balanced builds and was an horrible mistake, nice to you to see it, even if it is so late.
Well so as the great majority of people said here we WANT the 8v8 back, this needs much more strategy and uses more player's skills than the build. However this change will make iway, spike necro etc... go back. It has just to be nerfed when too much play it, imo.

For the new maps personally I don't care I like the actual maps, that I hate is stupid noobs winning with heroes (nerfed atm), SF, or other builds that are harder to beat.

You MUST NOT, NEVER and FORGET the idea of removing, reseting ranks. Ranks show the experience the player has in Ha that would be stupid to remove it, even if iway or spike farm it. The problem comes from the PLAYERS and not from the ranks. Player's minds should change, not gw system. Thos who are complaining "hey I'm R2 why don't you take me in your group?" are saying that all the time, but then why don't they complain they can't enter in very good guilds like Ef, Cel, Easy ... ? It is exactly the same thing, experienced players play with experienced players, that's all.

Well ty for reading me and please excuse me for the mistakes I did, I'm not English but french, so It's harder for me.

General idea of this post : get back to 8v8, be prepared to nerf iway or spike or other builds too much played, and don't remove, change or reset ranks.

Mental Leteci · Dec 28, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Less Blood Spike. Less IWAY. Less cookie cutter charactar templates that 95%+ of players were running exactly like everyone else ran them, like CG Rangers, Warders, SB/Infusers, RC/Prots, WoH Monks, Blood Spikers, IWAY Warriors, Oath Trappers... Need I go on?

Seriously, during the 6 vs 6 weekend there was quite a bit of variety.

Oh God...
Yes, there is less blood spike, but when was the blood spike a problem?
Less IWAY, true, but there are new formations of it and there always will be since IWAY-ers don't know how to run something else.
Less cookie cutter template etc. is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What are you talking about? All those things you mentioned are still used, even improved IMHO.
Quite a bit of variety during the 6v6 weekend? Wow, did you play HA during that weekend? 50% of the builds were condition ones.

Victory · Dec 28, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Having originally embraced the change to 6v6, I am now totally in favour of changing back to 8v8 for one simple reason- 6v6 just doesn't work in the way it was intended. Now all we see is further lame spirit spamming holding builds crowded around the central altar, with not enough damage to kill anything, etc., etc. I was hoping that 6v6 would bring more flexibility into HA, but once again player's ingenuity proves me wrong by coming up with these type of builds.

So- change back to 8v8.

Second change is more or different maps- everything else gets new maps, HA just loses one perfectly decent one?

Eliminate Halls skips- every team should have to play on every map on the way to encourage a more balanced approach to team building.

Change HOH itself so it's not just an altar holding map, but can be a variety of different types of map to discourage holding builds skipping to halls, capping and then standing around spirits and spamming heals without much chance of dying. Make some HOH matches 1v1 anniliation so you have to kill the other team to win.

Bring in VOD conditions after 15 minutes on any map- so damage builds have a chance of killing ultra defensive holding builds designed to bore you into rage quitting.

Nero_Fayth · Dec 28, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Currently, IMO, halls has become an even more terrible beast than it was during 8v8 as far as the meta is concerned.

Consider:
For both 6v6 and 8v8 Halls there were~
Spikes--SoMW, OG, Rspike, ETC

Pressure--SF, Vim, Hex/spirit pressure, Condition heavy builds

Holding Builds--Dual Paras, groups with multiple rits/eles/necs/etc, etc

Balanced--Basically anything other than what was mentioned above,
although many define "Balanced Teams" differently.

Other--Builds such as vim and sf, (as mentioned before) which many players currently and in the past, looked down upon because they were thought to require no skill of the player. Iway for example, is one of several which I would fit into this category.
Matches in halls are now quicker as far as duration is concerned, but groups are less dependent upon experience/skill and more upon the skill sets which they bring into halls.

Where I stand currently:
I dislike halls as it is within recent months, although I did enjoy 6v6 before the cookie cutter Hex/spirit pressure, Searing Flames, and Sandstorm groups came along. Yes, 8v8 halls had a comparable meta as well, but skill choices and group configurations were no where near as limited.

I enjoyed both 6v6 and 8v8, although both types of gameplay included what I consider to be flaws, and neither was always perfect. I think though, that many would enjoy 6v6 more with a few simple (if skill balancing ever was) skill adjustments. Either way, I enjoyed 6v6 and 8v8 at one time or another. Both have had their ups and downs, and I would definitely go back to halls if Anet would happen to adjust a few skills. 6v6 and 8v8 are, to me, irrelevant when it's the skill bar, and not the player/group who decides a match.

In Conclusion~
I think that many (not all) players, including myself, would be quite happy with another skill balance. Many of the people whom I've played with have left halls for good during 6v6, but DID in fact enjoy it at one time. Feel free to constructively criticize this admittedly opinionated post, but as a disclaimer, everyone has their own definitions of builds/metas and I tried to outline them in a general sense.

Randomway Ftw · Dec 28, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Victory, the spirit build you are complaining about is by no means a holding build, just because you cannot kill it does not make it a holding build, spirits are a very long cast time, learn to interupt. Smart teams can hold halls, they do not need to kill things while holding. The influence on holding by these spirits on holding is small against smart teams, Shelter and union die after 5 hits that trigger them on the team, faster if you attack them directly, fertile can be killed, maybe you should take pd or some other skill interupts before qqing on forums?

By the way you do not need to hall skip with that build, you can win every map, (a few skips in between other maps do happen often though) I did it many times before the build became fotm and I stopped playing it.

It seems that recent anti altar map surge is very similar to the pro 6v6 surge after the double fame weekend, shortsighted and reactionary, with little examination of the actual circumstances.

Celestial_Kitsune · Dec 28, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I would like to thank Anet for finally making a limit to heroes in HA. Please keep it that way.

It would be interesting to make HA both 6v6 and 8v8 with different maps, but I am not sure if it is possible. For example, you can make two new locations: one for 6v6 and another for 8v8. One can be tournament-style based and another one can be similar to what HA looks like today with new maps. Alternatively, make a new arena for 6v6 and make HA 8v8.
Change favor system. It hurts PvE because players can't go to their favorite areas if they don't have favor. Alternative would be to allow entry to elite areas for all, but give some kind of team boost to the teams who have favor.
Eliminate hall skips and make a team win at least 5-10 times before entering HoH. It is one of the most annoying things about HA. I remember one time I skipped Zaishen -> HoH - this is ridiculous! Some teams even have a timer and try to kill the last opponent on the map at the right time to get a skip.
The current HoH reward system does not make sense: you may spend an hour reaching HoH to get a reward, but you get the same reward every three minutes if you are holding.
Make reaching HoH more difficult. Now this is a drastic change, but I propose to eliminate holding HoH as a concept altogether. Altar maps can still be in place, but HoH will be the final destination you have to reach only once and all team gets a significant reward after winning HoH. Winning HoH looks like nothing special to me. I used to win and hold every weekend when I played HA. I want to feel that wining HA is something special you achieve after many battles on different maps. Make a team win at least 10 maps with different objectives and with various environmental effects and terrains. Environmental effects may include something that influences energy, adrenaline, hexes, enchantments, etc. This will encourage diversity in teams because they need to be flexible enough to perform well on each map. If this format is implemented, it should be 8v8.
Change HoH map.. Too many things depend on luck under current format.
Give all members of a team a reward on winning HoH. It is really annoying when someone gets a crystalline with a sigil and a caller gets nothing.
Implement a voting system. Different forums have different populations. If Anet wants to make a significant change or introduce something new - make a poll about it either on the official website or, even better, in the game itself. This way you'll have a large enough sample size to draw conclusions about what players want.

Lykan · Dec 28, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui
Seriously, during the 6 vs 6 weekend there was quite a bit of variety.

Just wow, 6v6 weekend was ages ago a lot has changed. I cant believe you posted that.

Seriously do me a favor and log in to GW and press "B" tell me how many builds you see.....

Winstar · Dec 28, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Just wow, 6v6 weekend was ages ago a lot has changed. I cant believe you posted that.

Seriously do me a favor and log in to GW and press "B" tell me how many builds you see.....

I don't remember there being much variety even then. Rangers and smite is about it. As well, as someone else mentioned, drawing information about preferences for 6v6 vs 8v8 that initial 6v6 weekend is problematic since it was intertwined with the double rewards. Its not clear that you what the cause of the increased interest at that time was.

This is a little peripheral, but I'd like to 2nd the idea of cutting the strings between halls and PvE elite areas. I'd don't PvE much anymore, but I remember that being a pain, especially if one region ends up dominating a lot more than another. At least rethink the relationship between the 2.

Zui · Dec 28, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rui

At the beggining everything has to be new dont u think? what about now? all u can see in ha 6v6 is spirit spamm, jagged bones, unranked sf and some balanced with 2/3 earth eles with sand storm...

Good and lots of players were there because it was double fame but everyone soon realised how crap 6v6 is.

You actualy can run quite a bit more in Heroes' Ascent than what you listed and still win. People just aren't doing so, because it's easier to play Minion Factory, Spirit Spam, Searingflamesway, Sandstormway, or IWAY.

I honestly don't know *anyone* who played 6 vs 6 for double fame. I'm sure there were some, though. But, everyone I know would have played it if fame wasn't even offered as a reward. They just wanted to see what the new gametype would be like.

You also can't blame it all on 6 vs 6. People have been saying how much the Hereos' Ascent maps suck well before it was changed from Toumbs. They're right about that, too. Quite honestly I don't care if they change it back to 8 vs 8. Just make the maps not suck.

Either way, you should probably have read the post I was responding to before quoting me. I was replying to Shards idiotic "how does less possibilities = more variation." I answered that. The 6 vs 6 weekend had much more variety than what 8 vs 8 had at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacitus

When talking about 6v6 over 8v8

You think 6v6 has/had no cookie cutter builds? searing flame eles, sandstorm else, jagged bones necros, incoming paragons, Vim trappers need i go on?

Its harder to make 6v6 build with everything you need for HA than it was with 8 people. This means that far more people copy a successful build in the 6 man teams than before.

Oh if that list was going to be endless would that not mean there was a lot of variety in 8v8? something that is lacking in 6v6 atm

First off, I wasn't talking about 6 vs 6 being better than 8 vs 8. I was replying to Shard. Perhaps you should try reading his post, and then reading mine like it was a reply to his. I hoped that people might think I was replying to a post that I quoted in my reply, but I guess that was too much to hope for...

When did I ever say that 6 vs 6 had no cookie cutters? It had one on the 6 vs 6 weekend, which was ViMway. Searing Flames, Sandstorm, Jagged Bones, and Paragonway all require Nightfall. If memory serves, Nightfall hadn't been released then. Infact, I don't think I mentioned the current state of 6 vs 6 once in my post, either. Because there was only *one* cookie cutter on the 6 vs 6 weekend, you might think ANET was like "wow alot more variety compared to a gametype where everyone runs the same things." They also nerfed Victory is Mine, to make ViMway impossible. Hmm...

Did I ever say it wasn't harder to make a 6 vs 6 build that works on every map and win with it? It's far from impossible, though. I honestly wouldn't call Spirit Spam, or Minion Factory good builds, either. I personaly haven't lost to either on a non-alter map yet(aside from on Unholy Temples when someone called a body block vs their runner, and death nova pwned us... A very stupid tactical call on our part doesn't mean their build was good, though, since we were a good bit ahead until that point), and you can't use alter maps as a very good point of comparison for anything because they're 3-way...

Again, I only mentioned the 6 vs 6 weekend event. Not 6 vs 6 currently. ANET basicly saw the comparison of "An entire gametype dominated by the exact same easy to run builds" vs "a gametype that requires more skill and people don't run the exact same builds/templates, except for ViMway which can be dealt with very easily."

6 vs 6 at the moment is lacking in the same way 8 vs 8 was. People are still doing their best to exploit bad map mechanics, and bad players are running whatever is easiest to run because the map mechanics and other bad players make it possible. The only difference is in 6 vs 6, less of those easy to run super defensive builds are possible, and spikes now require some actual skill to run so they're out of the question for most teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Oh God...
Yes, there is less blood spike, but when was the blood spike a problem?
Less IWAY, true, but there are new formations of it and there always will be since IWAY-ers don't know how to run something else.
Less cookie cutter template etc. is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What are you talking about? All those things you mentioned are still used, even improved IMHO.
Quite a bit of variety during the 6v6 weekend? Wow, did you play HA during that weekend? 50% of the builds were condition ones.

No, Blood Spike wasn't a problem except it was amazingly boring to play against, and let people with no skill win and hold halls or at the very least farm fame.

Yeah, there will always be warrior-heavy pressure builds with little to no healing(well, IWAY has a descent amount now...). Unless the map mechanics/fame mechanic don't reward those types of builds anymore.

Hi, I was talking about 6 vs 6 during the weekend preview event.

Yeah, I actualy did play Heroes' Ascent during the preview event. There were a good amount of condition pressure builds, sure. They didn't all run the exact same charactars and skills on every charactar, though. You also saw some hex builds, a bit of smite, some warrior-heavy pressure builds with Monks, some 'mixed spike' builds, and a few other crazy things that were less common. (You also saw ViMway, and lots of it).

Just an example of a similar goal in condition pressure though: I saw people running Oath/Apply, Cripshot/Apply, Practiced Stance/Apply Poison(for Seeking Arrows when you got to halls...), Apply Poison Thumpers... They almost all had different bars even in their little build sub-types. Some Oath guys would bring Fertile, others Savage/Distracting, some would not run Barbed Trap in favor of another skill... My point is, there were real choices being made about what skills to run, and how they synergized with everything else. Not, "we need a shockwave warder with this exact bar, because everyone runs a shockwave warder with this exact bar."

Your genralization of '50% of builds were pressure builds with conditions' is like comparing a Swallow to an Ostrich; "theyre both birdz1!1!!" Better yet, compare a chicken to a pterodactyl; "they both hav hollow bonez11!1!" Seriously, it gets even dumber when you realise that rangers were the strongest thing you could run in a pressure build at that time, and pressure builds were extremely strong the time...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Just wow, 6v6 weekend was ages ago a lot has changed. I cant believe you posted that.

Try reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Domain of Imba
Environment Effect
For every second you have Searing Flames on your skillbar, you lose 1 fame.

I would like to point out that Guildwars.com said they changed it to 6v6 to encourage "more variation in builds." How does less possibilities = more variation?

I wonder how my post could have been a reply to that one... Hmm... How 2 use brain... How 2 use brain...

Winstar · Dec 28, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So instead of a repeat, or a full 9000-word treatise on the subject, could we get a few bullet points, with a little backup reasoning? (For instance, saying "8v8" isn't real valuable. Saying "6v6 because" and giving a brief explanation is great.)

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts!

Methinks we've strayed from the goal a bit.

- As for the new 6v6 vs double fame, I don't doubt that a lot of people wanted to see what 6v6 was like, but I know a lot of people wanted the double fame. Particularly newer players who could finally push towards their r3 or whatever in order to get beyond the rank descrimination hump. Also, just because people wanted to check out 6v6 and see what its like doesn't mean that in the end after the dust settled that most of them preferred the 6v6 format.

Mental Leteci · Dec 28, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Me thinks they should bring back 8v8 with old Burial Mounds (RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO2). Not just that it was the funniest map (hi Koreans), it also got rid of spirit spammers.
Now let me make an example: Of course that it wouldn't get rid of all gimmicks, but think of it this way; burial mounds and 3 IWAY's against 3 Necro Spikes (this is an example), from these 6 teams only one can win which means only 1 gimmick goes to the next map. So if ANet ever wanted to get rid of all the gimmicks they should have done it this way (IMO). 6v6 didn't change anything in that case, it's just more boring with less creativity in it. Yes, I know my idea is so cool and stuff, photos later, I'm too shy.

EDIT: Why is this text censured? I don't get it, I didn't swear or something O.O

Legendary Shiz · Dec 28, 2006, 10:24 PM // 22:24

You know you swore. Who knows with censors on forums nowadays, I remember on some forum I couldn't say "basement" because it said semen.

I think a 6 team map would be cool for a bit, but tbh those matches would take ages. Scared already takes 15-20 minutes, and that's only 4 teams.

Mental Leteci · Dec 28, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

I had no problems with Scarred, we just had 4:15 Scarred a while ago. Only problem with that kind of Burial would be new players again who would whine about how they can't get pass that map and all that crap we heard before. I wonder why ANet didn't make those changes when I was rank 2.

Clinically Proven · Dec 28, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Awersome post Celestial Kitsune.

leguma · Dec 28, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

To keep in tune with the OPs request for concise points with supporting explanations:

- Make the Hero mobile even after capping.
This is not to suggest that once a hero captures an altar he should be able to follow a player anywhere on the map. Instead, let him move about with the same degree of freedom that he has while following a player, so that he does not stray from the altar, but at the same time does not sit like something unhigenic in 100x AoE spells.

- Discourage long, drawn out battles.
I am not suggesting VoD, simply because that in itself is a strategy and a tactic which simply should not be part of the HA metagame, as it will lead to rainbow spikes holding out for VoD and then getting easier kills. One posibility would be to have something similar to environmental effects that become more pronounced as the game stretches on. These should be different for every map so that they cannot be worked into the meta.

- Rework the Altar.
As it stands right now, the altar is an all or nothing affair. Unlike the other types of map that allow for rebounds to some degree, altar maps are still a matter of waiting untill 2 minutes when every hero death means certain loss. HA altars simply cannot work as the AB ones do, for obvious reasons, however, it is quite possible to merge the two systems and come out somewhere in the middle. Make it so that every casting of Claim Resource gives the Hero's team one point towards the altar, and that the team with the most points wins, and make the Hero respawn, the downtime of it moving from the spawn point back to the altar is enough of a penalty. This would make teams go for the altar as soon as possible, would allow for interupting and Knocking down to be a viable alternative to kiling the hero, and would render "holding" useless as teams would not need vast amount of protection to prevent loss by hero death.

- Multiple variations of the same map.
One of the things that keeps GvG interesting is that you never know exactly what map you will be playing on, and each one has small diferences. Having 3 versions of every current map, regardless of how simiilar they might be on a certain level such as the wizzard/warrior/hunter GH (I know there are some major diferences between them), will keep things more interesting.

-Think of the bigger picture.
4v4 is nice and functional and all you have to do is kill the other team. However, HA requires you to do a lot more than just kill the other team, you have to run relics, capture altars and above all kep the Hero alive. One monk is fine for 4v4, however, 6v6 requires two. Even in 8v8 GvG, two monks are sufficient, however, GvGs are fluid and have a lot of maneuvering pushing, pullling back, and even then all teams take some for of support for thheir monks. The big difference now is that a GvG is always a one team vs one team affair, it is never a three way, while in HA not only do you have to fend off two other teams, but you also have a big blue hunk of meat in the middle of the map that is glued to the spot and does nothing but soak damage. I'm not argueing for 6v6 or 8v8 I'm just saying that you cannot take a type of game and simply chop off two slots off the party and expect it to work out. If you keep 6v6, make significant changes to how HA works in order to make it viable to take more than just damage ande defence. If you leave it as it is make it the way it was intended.

Cass · Dec 28, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Read a lot of good posts, skipped even more, but I wanted to put my vote in: 8v8 should return for the simple reason that it allows more versatility. Most of the people that more or less quit playing HA (myself included) did sp because of the switch to 6v6. The heroes were outrageous too, but since they arrived later, were only the nail in the coffin.

I would suggest map changes and the like, but really let's see what 8v8 is like first, with all the new skills from chapter 3.