Curse

manitoba1073 · Dec 27, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

easy way to fix HA,

ADD ENVIROMENTAL EFFECTS.

tomcruisejr · Dec 27, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

In 6v6, its buildwars or rock paper scissors, whichever you prefer to call it. Also, to those of you worried about bloodspike if 8v8 returns: Avatar of Grenth ggkkthxbai

yea and people will start to whine Avatar of Grenth / Order of Apostasy is overpowered. lol

DreamWind · Dec 27, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Those of us who used to spend hours each day there are capable of telling the difference between HA sucking because it's a mess of Heroes and over defensive paragons, and HA sucking because it's 6v6.

As I've said, I've had about as many good games in the short timespan of 6v6 as the entire time 8v8 was around. Maybe that is just me...or maybe 8v8 HA was getting annoying who knows?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

You've got 2 monks, that leaves you with 4 slots. Now if you only run 2 monks for defence, I guaranteed, no matter how good they are, they will get rolled vs Grenth dervish, and overpowered RaO thumpers and so on.

How are overpowered Grenth and RaO thumpers the fault of 6v6?

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

yea and people will start to whine Avatar of Grenth / Order of Apostasy is overpowered. lol

They can bite me. I'll reiterate, I had my share of losses to lame gimmick builds in 8v8, and they pissed me off, but I kept on playing and having fun RIGHT AFTER THE LOSS. Right now I haven't played HA in weeks, almost never do unless its a guild group, 6v6 is no fun even if you're omgwtfpwning halls. And if I lose to a gimmick build in 6v6 knowing full well that is was the build, not my team sucking, I just get off guildwars. It is no fun. It is, as has been stated many times, rock paper scissors: guild wars edition (sell it as another expansion to make up for the money you're losing from not reverting to 8v8, anet).

@dreamwind: You seem to be the only person who has had as much fun or as many tactical decisions in 6v6 as 8v8, or you are deluded. Take your pick. RaO thumpers and grenth dervishes are the fault of 6v6 because you are forced to run a 2 monk backline with almost no utility, thus you cannot carry enough healing and defense to counter them. Or you can run 4-6 defensive characters and do hour long matches, which too many people do.

Just remember, one thing you can't fight is numbers. 8v8 has more utility than 6v6, more build possibilities. The end.

DreamWind · Dec 27, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

@dreamwind: You seem to be the only person who has had as much fun or as many tactical decisions in 6v6 as 8v8, or you are deluded.

Or I am apparently the only one who remembers the stupid 8v8 games with multiple spike teams in them. People seem to think 8v8 was the glory days for some reason.

Quote:

Take your pick. RaO thumpers and grenth dervishes are the fault of 6v6.

No, its the fault of not enough skill balances.

Quote:

Just remember, one thing you can't fight is numbers. 8v8 has more utility than 6v6, more build possibilities. The end.

Which completely avoids why not 20v20?

Lets not turn this into a 6v6 or 8v8 war. Thats what closed the thread before. Go through Pm if you want. Lets just leave it at everybody has their opinions. I just get frustrated when people say things like they represent the entire population. I'd like new maps. That is my main opinion.

Lorekeeper · Dec 27, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

As I've said, I've had about as many good games in the short timespan of 6v6 as the entire time 8v8 was around. Maybe that is just me...or maybe 8v8 HA was getting annoying who knows?

How are overpowered Grenth and RaO thumpers the fault of 6v6?

generally when people say they want 8vs8 back... they admit that it wasnt perfect... far from it. But these problems are not down to the size of teams in HA... these problems are inherent in the maps and mechanics of HA. What alot of people believe is that putting HA back into the 8vs8 format will allow us to find out what these issues are more easily.
Of course things wont be perfect with the reintroduction of 8vs8... its just the first necessary step towards the revitalisation of HA. Theres no point making any map changes or mechanic balancing until we know how big the teams in HA are going to be.

Grenth and RaO and searing flames builds form part of the highly offensive builds whos sole strategy is to charge enemy teams and overwhelm their backlines before they have any chance or carrying out their own defense or strategies. They force a regular balanced team onto the backfoot right at the start of the engagement and make it very hard for regular balanced teams to even think about killing anything because their offense has to spend some time playing defensively in order to alleviate the pressure on their backline.
With an 8 man team... you could afford to let at least 2 players on your team maintain an offensive stance against the enemy backline meaning you could counter their offense by your own offense... since your team has other players who could help the monks. Thats the whole point of the balanced team... you have players who can switch their attention defensively and offensively. or you had players dedicated to defense and players dedicated to offense.

With the 6 man team... this flexibility is impossible. Thats why the high dmg output/ease of use builds like RaO Grenth dervish and Searing flame eles have brought about the existence of purely defensive builds because these teams have realised that in order to survive against these high dmg builds they have build specifically against them.... even the prevalence of searing flames eles and the inability of teams to bring utility against them (like diversion) made monks sacrifice one of their valuable skill slots to bring mantra of flame... something im proud of since i was the first to include it on my bar. But it really does highlight the state of the game when a monk brings 1 skill that counters only 1 type of dmg....

6vs6 makes mountains out of molehills and creates a vacuum into which some skills come in and dominate because of the lack of counters.

you would see much less whining about searing flames and rao thumpers with 8 man teams.

(whether we will just start whining about something else is entirely possible tho :P)

steady stance iway... (might bring back hexes to HA)
euro spike (might encourage dual angelic bond balanced builds)
dual derv emo smite (might bring back diversion mesmers)
necro spike? (maybe)
mixed caster spike? (who knows)

but at least it might be viable to run some counters to these builds as opposed to now where the only viable counter people can run is to go fully defensive.

EDIT

just to make my argument more objective. What if 6vs6 stays? What do i think needs to be changed.
Well i basically stated aswell as several others that a 2 monk backline cannot hope to manage the dmg output of the meta currently.

thats the symptom of the HA illness.

whats do i prescribe as the cure?

either
1) a massive systemwide nerf of damage skills
or
2) a major buff of monk skills
or
3) a buff of energy management skills available to monks

this will allow me more freedom in making builds... knowing that my 2 monks arent going to collapse in 30 seconds against constant KD+daze+nuking+burning pressure.

and let me tell you... experience has nothing to do with it. You could take the best monk duo in the game and the same would happen... maybe theyd take a couple of minutes but theyd still collapse. What hope do less experienced players have? (well they build uber defensive builds thats what they do)

but you see the problem with balancing the game around 6vs6 is that it will change 8vs8 gvg significantly.

gvg is all about dmg mitigation and movement... if you boost monk power or nerf offensive power... every game will go to VOD... and some games might never end at all, theres already a whole host of defensive measures making pressure builds (my fav builds) very difficult to run, giving rise to euro spike dominance in the previous season. So balancing the meta to make it easier for 2 monk backlines in 6vs6 will have horrible consequences for 8vs8 GvG.

i cant think of any other solutions for allowing the balanced team back into 6vs6 HA. And unless someone else can think of the solution outside buffing monks and nerfing dmg... the conclusion is that 6vs6 just cant work because the game isnt and cannot be balanced around them.

Tiyuri · Dec 27, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

How are overpowered Grenth and RaO thumpers the fault of 6v6?

Because they are only overpowered in 6v6, lack of utility to shut them down leads them to being overpowered.

In 8v8, their being overpowered is debatable, I've had no problem with them in GVG. But in 6v6 they are def overpowered, and they force a team to use more than just the 2 monks for defence. And then you're left with only 3 slots to mess around with.

Like it's been stated many many times, guildwars is balanced for 8v8, things like this, rao thumpers and dervish being overpowered, are products of running a competitive game type at a party size that was never intended when the skills were made.

Doomking · Dec 27, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

i'm gratefull that there are people from anet reading this thread.

well, i wonder why almost everyone comes up with the 8v8 thing when talking about ha, and i think it is rather obvious, because ... that is the main problem. it's not the only one, but its the main one, and anyone that has read this topic since the first page would see that.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Exactly. You could make 6v6 WORK (IMO it would still be less fun, but leave that out of it) by buffing monks or nerfing damage systemwide. This would, of course, completely omgwtfpwn the rest of guildwars. Thus we need 8v8 so that the skills are balanced as they are meant to be balanced.

Randomway Ftw · Dec 27, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

OOA and Grenth are overpowered because of the way they are used and abused, I don't want to go into specifics or else this will turn into an IWAY flamewar.

Dreamwind, QQing about bloodspike (or any other 8v8 fotm) is not a good enough reason to keep 6v6, in fact 6v6 promotes fotms because of the lack of utility in balanced builds.

God Apprentice · Dec 27, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Or I am apparently the only one who remembers the stupid 8v8 games with multiple spike teams in them. People seem to think 8v8 was the glory days for some reason.

No, its the fault of not enough skill balances.

Which completely avoids why not 20v20?

Lets not turn this into a 6v6 or 8v8 war. Thats what closed the thread before. Go through Pm if you want. Lets just leave it at everybody has their opinions. I just get frustrated when people say things like they represent the entire population. I'd like new maps. That is my main opinion.

I get really tired of reiterating this: Flavor Of The Moment builds will always exist.ALWAYS. I'm not saying I represent the "population". But having played HA for a while, I'm stating mere fact.

*8 on 8 was the glory days of HA, it's that simple, otherwise why are there only a few districts now, and back then International Ditrict 1 was always full.

*A lot of people left the scene when the switch to 6 was made, and more so because of stupid Heroes being able to be used. I think a good portion of those who like the 6 change started playing HA because of the double fame weekend. That in my opinion was not a very good decision to base a complete change to a 6 team format, all it did was encourage fame farming.

*Beating spike isn't that hard. The key to beating a spike is disrupting the spike as much as possible. One person on here said "I don't care if it's Soul Wedding, a clean unprotted spike will not be infusable". The key is to disrupt as much of the spike as possible so it IS infusable.

*More variety of builds existed back then: ViM, IWAY, Balance(and it's variations), EoE bomb, Random,the various forms of spike (rainbow,blood,ranger) How many builds are there now? Jagged, Sandball,SF,Spirit. Theres no room to try to sub out stuff in those current builds, it really hurts the build now

*6 limits builds: Now a days you're gearing your build up for offensive and can kill with not much holding, or defensive, bit less offensive power, but good holding power. There is no real "balanced" build now. Builds now have to skimp on things that could help them on certain maps then previously when there was a real balanced build. Also hardly anyone runs utility(like mesmers).

*Some of you who favor teams of 6 always give the same argument "Oh IWAY and Bloodspike will come back" as if the current meta doesn't have FotM builds now. Therefore I do not want to see that ignorant comment made again, no matter what the format is there will always be certain builds run. People will find things that are not defined as balanced and run them to death. GET OVER IT!

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

What people don't realize is that nightfall skills open up a whole new, obviously unseen, avenue for HA. Avatar of Grenth>bloodspike. IWAY with steady stance and stuff will have so many variations its not even funny, and excluding MATH, it was easy to beat anyway. You cannot base your reasoning off previous fotms when they will/might be ineffective with the nightfall skills. Of course, nightfall also generates more fotms, proving that they will always exist.

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 27, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Why are people even comparing 6v6 and 8v8 by fotms? You're gonna have em no matter what, and 8v8's fotms were no where near as bad as 6v6's.

Why? Because you could fit in counters in 8v8 without changing a whole build. Now you need a warder for your team to kite through, and you need someone to shutdown the jagged horror and spirit spammer on the spirit spam crap. Thats half your build (excluding monks) used just to stay alive.

The Silver Star · Dec 27, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

8v8 was really good, i never realised how good it was until it was gone.

if it were to be changed back to 8v8 i dont think enough people would come back, i feel the damage has been done.

Trying to fix it now is like trying tobring a dead horse back to life... its not possible.

God Apprentice · Dec 27, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

Why are people even comparing 6v6 and 8v8 by fotms? You're gonna have em no matter what, and 8v8's fotms were no where near as bad as 6v6's.

Why? Because you could fit in counters in 8v8 without changing a whole build. Now you need a warder for your team to kite through, and you need someone to shutdown the jagged horror and spirit spammer on the spirit spam crap. Thats half your build (excluding monks) used just to stay alive.

That's what I tried to stress here

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice[/B

*6 limits builds: Now a days you're gearing your build up for offensive and can kill with not much holding, or defensive, bit less offensive power, but good holding power. There is no real "balanced" build now. Builds now have to skimp on things that could help them on certain maps then previously when there was a real balanced build. Also hardly anyone runs utility(like mesmers).

There is less to work with and as you said putting 2 monks, a warder and someone as a shutdown you have nothing left to work with, because you need some form of damage dealer, which usually there are 2 main damage dealers in teams now(warriors, raos). So in essence you've used all your slots and are limited in terms of what to bring. I monk a lot and I notice these days the other monk on my team doesnt bring hex removal, so when you do meet someone using hexes you're screwed over. I tell them to bring veil, you never know when you need it

And like I stated before fotms will exist no matter what

keli · Dec 27, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

So yes, bring back 8v8 and ban NPCs and Heroes from HA. We dont want to play against NPCs, its called pvp not pve. And yes nerf these overpowered skills like SF. Add back Burial Mouds. And well, you said you got many good messages from players about the new HA, oh well please.... you got them from the newb heroway players and from these who was too newb to play normal build. It needs no experience to push SF and Glowing Gaze, SF and Glowing Gaze..... And the reason, why there were many ppl in HA at the double 6v6 weekend... The answer is, because there were double fame event, not because 6v6.

I hope these many people force you to do these changes and let people play again other people not against henchies.... Ty

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 27, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

So yes, bring back 8v8 and ban NPCs and Heroes from HA. We dont want to play against NPCs, its called pvp not pve. And yes nerf these overpowered skills like SF. Add back Burial Mouds. And well, you said you got many good messages from players about the new HA, oh well please.... you got them from the newb heroway players and from these who was too newb to play normal build. It needs no experience to push SF and Glowing Gaze, SF and Glowing Gaze..... And the reason, why there were many ppl in HA at the double 6v6 weekend... The answer is, because there were double fame event, not because 6v6.

I hope these many people force you to do these changes and let people play again other people not against henchies.... Ty

Anet change HA back to 8v8 because most of the HA'ers want it that way, and because we've given perfectly valid reasons why 8v8 is better? I honestly don't see that happening.

leeky baby · Dec 27, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

i want 8 V 8 bk

6 V 6 is so boring

phasola · Dec 27, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

GvG/TA get new maps every chapter.
HA gets 6v6.
Sounds fair to me.

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 27, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

GvG/TA get new maps every chapter.
HA gets 6v6.
Sounds fair to me.

Careful, I don't know if anet understands sarcasm... They might think we're fine with it.