Curse

phoenixtech · Dec 23, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Regarding Song of Concentration:
Also, a somewhat related suggestion for holding maps:

If a team loses their ghost and it can't be resurrected (i.e. it's past 2:00 in Courtyard or HoH) and that team doesn't have control of the altar, it gets a loss and gets removed from the game.

What this means is if you're red/yellow and haven't capped and your ghost gets killed, you're gone, instead of interfering with the game for the remaining 30 seconds. If you're blue, your ghost gets killed and someone caps, you're gone and can't screw over the team of your choice. On Broken Tower, this rule wouldn't apply because you have the orbs to res the ghost.

This mechanic would prevent teams that can't win the match from interfering with the two teams that are still fighting, taking out politics in favour of skill.

This would favor spike teams, specifically bspike alot more than it would other people since you can just spike down a ghostly and remove any type of revenge/politics. Other teams wouldn't have it so easy.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 23, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

same logic behind the disabling of armor swapping - maybe choose one and try to win with what you have?

and yes, i agree. the current HA maps gimp the 6 man setup or make it too much of a something. maybe HA maps should be balanced/revamped/overhauled for 6vs6 so you wont be sacrificing either the offense or the defense ever.

I've said this before, but if you choose one, you get games where it's GG before the match even started. Armor swapping is totally different, because it's very possible to win against any team with just one set of armor. (if you have 64 skills that is)

tomcruisejr · Dec 23, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I've said this before, but if you choose one, you get games where it's GG before the match even started.

that is if you don't try i guess. it's not like 6 man team versus 8 man team anyway. it's 6 man versus a 6 man team. and if you think something is missing, you can use things that aren't found in your skill bar anyway.

if you feel like im bsing just look at my 2nd point. "Tailoring the HA maps for 6vs6 " is a simple phrase that is easy to grasp.

Dextus Ironheart · Dec 23, 2006, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Personally i think ha should revert back to its 8v8 format, simply from looking at the number of international districts you can see the more experienced play base has decreased. If anything just have a weekend of 8v8 ha and see what the player response is.

~Wipe

Altair · Dec 23, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Regarding Song of Concentration:

Of course, this is subjective, but I find "instant-cap" that song allows to be better than minute-long interruptfests. Consider this:[list][*]I've won games in HoH when my team was all dead on the floor at 1:00 remaining and the other two teams had 2 CG rangers each and just interrupted each other the rest of the match. I didn't deserve that win.[*]I've lost games in HoH when we wiped the holding team at 1:00 and couldn't cap because the other team packed 10 interrupts on 6 different characters in their build. The holding team didn't deserve that win.

I agree lots of interrupt is frustrating and it is an issue, but Song of concentration can have a little tweak like a for 10 seconds, interrupts to the next skill used by ally within earshot have 25-50% chance to miss.

DreamWind · Dec 23, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Just fix song of concentration so it doesn't work on Ghostly Hero. GG.

There are lots of good ideas in here. I still think it begins and ends with the maps so I'll leave it at that. New ones, current ones fixed, etc etc.

It really would be interesting to have an 8v8 HA weekend though, just to SEE if it really gets as populated as some are saying it would.

Randomway Ftw · Dec 23, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

The real problem with song is that it forces you into one style of holding, uber defence, which is much lamer then interupt wars IMO. One seeking arrows ranger isn't difficult to counter, the problem is when you have 2x seeking + pd + shock war + leech sig + gale + cry on your ghost.

If ANET really thinks eeking arrows is a problem make it easily interuptable, that would fit with other preps like barbed arrows that are easily interuptable as well.
ANET should not make a completely brainless skill like song that allows for an almost certain cap.

Julen · Dec 23, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

As others have stated before
* bring back 8v8
* make hallsdrops worthwile (dont exagerate like you guys tend to do pls, dont wanna see 100k sigils neither)
* a skillupdate would be nice, if only 3 builds are being ran (which is the case atm) you know they must be abusing skills
* get rid of heroes completely, even though 2 are acceptable, id prefer em to be gone completely from any form of pvp

To those making this thread another flamefest, go do it somewhere else.

Tekish · Dec 23, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Back on topic...

The most glaring issue with HA now would definitely lie with its maps. Altar maps in particular, which were just as terrible back when they were first introduced as they are now. I can't ultimately claim to be super experienced at HA nowadays (I mainly played it before it even had that name), but I can easily say that seeing the same exact maps from the beginning is depressing, and contributes to the fact that I can't bring myself to play HA anymore. The maps were stale almost a year ago, so you can imagine how they play now.

The implementation of 6v6 was a good start, because it did fix one of the previous problems with HA (party formation). But I think the ultimate solution here is just a complete revamp, with the total removal of the alter maps that rely soley on holding builds and the AI of an atrociously programmed NPC. Fix that, and you fix HA, in my opinion.

Randomway Ftw · Dec 23, 2006, 05:14 PM // 17:14

You remove altar maps its not HA anymore, its a different game mode, if you remove altar maps you might as well remove the lord from gvg.

It seems to me like a few people have heard that altar maps suck and are just repeating it to seem on the "cool" side, kind of like PVEers who jump on the anti-iway/bloodspike bandwagon, and call everyone who disagrees with 6v6 an IWAYer because they heard those builds are lame.

I'll say it again Broken Tower is not an accurate representation of Halls. (when it is not being held by an unbalanced build, pre-nerf bloodspike, paraway)

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 23, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

K well I didn't feel like reading through the first 8 pages so this is an opinion I won't mess with all your arguments =P

Bring back 8v8 for several reasons:
1. 6v6 has fewer builds and more of a limited metagame, 8v8 has more options (sadly enough)
2. A lot more people seem to like 8v8, making a reversion just plain common sense >_> and increasing the player base
3. HA is pretty much dead, might as well revert to what is known to work
4. From a PvE standpoint, the reduced holding time of most 6v6 HA builds means that whichever territory has the most teams playing will probably have favor--with little holding power, europe almost always has favor. (just had to throw that in there even though IMO the arena itself is more important)

Divinus Stella · Dec 23, 2006, 06:21 PM // 18:21

If they do bring 8v8 back itll take a few skill balances before its back to its old form, but i think id prefer an unblanced 8v8 to 6v6 any day.

Tekish · Dec 23, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

You remove altar maps its not HA anymore

Then perhaps that would be for the best.

Quote:

its a different game mode, if you remove altar maps you might as well remove the lord from gvg.

It seems to me like a few people have heard that altar maps suck and are just repeating it to seem on the "cool" side, kind of like PVEers who jump on the anti-iway/bloodspike bandwagon, and call everyone who disagrees with 6v6 an IWAYer because they heard those builds are lame.

I don't really understand how you can really compare the Guild Lord and the Ghostly Hero. Only one of those two NPCs has a easily interruptable skill that is a requirement of winning a match. To me that screams broken game mechanic. To have a match decided by "cap first, interrupt until the end" is quite frankly the most boring aspect of Guild Wars PvP. I'd rather RA than participate in another one of those.

I can safely assure you though, that I have no desire to appear "cool" as you put it. I'm simply stating how I've felt about tombs since it was first conceived, and how I think the developers could breathe some life into what many who have played since the beginning consider to be a stagnant and ultimately boring PvP mode. That's the purpose of this thread, after all.

Yunas Ele · Dec 23, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane Loves You

iwayers must of been raped and traumatized by every other build, thats why they never try any other builds, apart from that time MATH tried that bspike /laugh. They actually had to use vent then! zomgwtf

I remember when MATH "tried" b-spike with schoko. Elemental told me she made like 2k fame in 2 days.... Kinda said when the IWAY scrubs can out b-spike the b-spike scrubs themselves. And when I lead IWAY teams I use vent. Just wanted to point that out.

Also a lot of IWAYers have tried other builds. I know I did but I just have the most fun playing IWAY, and having fun is what playing games is all about.... right?... right? Oh.. right, I'm the only one around here who still plays GW for fun. I'm sorry for not playing the game to prove myself as a "1337 balancer".

p.s - I've played in balance groups that don't use vent and we've been quite sucsesfull (like 10 holds). Not really relevant but just wanted to say that....

Randomway Ftw · Dec 23, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekish

Then perhaps that would be for the best.

I don't really understand how you can really compare the Guild Lord and the Ghostly Hero. Only one of those two NPCs has a easily interruptable skill that is a requirement of winning a match. To me that screams broken game mechanic. To have a match decided by "cap first, interrupt until the end" is quite frankly the most boring aspect of Guild Wars PvP. I'd rather RA than participate in another one of those.

I can safely assure you though, that I have no desire to appear "cool" as you put it. I'm simply stating how I've felt about tombs since it was first conceived, and how I think the developers could breathe some life into what many who have played since the beginning consider to be a stagnant and ultimately boring PvP mode. That's the purpose of this thread, after all.

I'm not comparing the Guild Lord to the Ghostly Hero, I'm comparing the objective of halls to the objective of GvG. Lets say you whipe a team a few times in GvG then some one sneeks off and ganks your lord, is that lame, is that imbalanced, no of course not, it's your fault because you weren't paying enough attention.

The only think that makes interupts difficult to counter is seeking arrows, which has two second activation time and requires an elite stance to make its duration last longer than its recharge. If you take away seeking arrows a guardian will allow to cap against a ranger interupter, if you bring SOD it's almost a certainty. Without seeking arrows ranger interupters are a joke. Remember seeking arrows ends if the ranger misses, there are plenty of skills that can make someone miss. The Ranger has to be able to use a skill every five seconds in order to interupt the ghost, there are plenty of skills to increase recharge time. Knock down the ranger, black him out?

Remember just because it take time to locate and neutralize interupters, so don't go in at the last 30 seconds like a retard.

If you're running a gimmick that lacks utility skills *cough* bloodspike *cough* I'll just laugh at you.

If ANET feels that interupts in halls are a serious problem they should nerf seeking arrows, it is unnecesary to change halls.

Noose · Dec 23, 2006, 07:17 PM // 19:17

I haven't been much of an HA'er since a little before Factions came out. I ran some Iway when i was bored, or maybe did some monking, and on the first 6v6 weekend i ran Vimway with my guild for fun. I just recently started doing HA again, although I haven't done much in the whole scheme of things, I do remember what made it more fun for me way back when.

--8v8-- I like 6v6 too, but I believe that it is way too limited. There are barely any more spikes around that can hold their own defensively, there aren't many 'balanced' builds anymore, which gave you a good all-around ability that is hard to accomplish now.

--Not GvG-- I wasn't sure what to label this as, and it kind of fits under "8v8", but the idea is that with the new GvG system, you won't be able to bring in other guilded friends if you are a man short or something, for the real competetive play. Back with 8v8, you could actually run your GvG build in HA to get some practice in playing the roles, you could tweak the build, just do it with the same people to get practice just playing together, or whatever.

--6 teams-- I remember that map with 6 teams, kind of 3 1v1's until somebody lost and their opponent decided to gank someone. It was a fun map, and I admit, it eliminated a lot more teams on their way towards hoh, but maybe it could be a map right at the beginning to weed out the weaker, or unluckier, teams. And maybe it could shorten the road to halls for the winners, and then the HoH could be set back to 5 teams or something like that.

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 23, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

1) almost all who are in favor of 8 versus 8 says that there is more combination that 8 X 8 can give, thus variety.

well variety was almost non existent when we were farming noobs with IWAY when the tombs was 8vs8. we used to face ranger spike, iway, chopsuey builds with no clear objective, monk smite, blood spike, until it became iway, iway, ranger spike, anti - iway, bloodspike and it became iway, bloodspike.

2) also, those who are in favor of 8vs8 thinks that 8vs8 players fill the HA districts, when it was turned to 6vs6, they were all "empty"

cheap fotm builds thrived well in 8vs8. maybe the players who filled HA districts only played cheap fotm builds.

3) finally, one common thing among those who are in favor of 8vs8 - they are known players of spike-holding builds.

ZOMG - SPIEK IS LYK NOT POSSIBLE IN 6VS6 NOW. GOTTA PLAY WOW

1) 6v6 has: Spirit spam, SF, balanced (which are all similiar), and the few weird ass gimmick builds. Thats 4.

8v8 has: IWAY, VIMWAY, b-spike, rspike, mixed spike, heavy hex (degen), heavy hex (shutdown), condition overload, extreme pressure, gimmicks, etc.

Which is bigger: 4 or 10? Hmm... tough one. I'll call up my preschool and see if they'll tell me.

2) Maybe. Maybe not. A lot of the people I played with who weren't in my guild left tombs (or gw entirely) a few days after 6v6 became permanent. Those are people tigers, not scrubs. None of them used cheap fotm crap.

3) Nice generalization. Too bad it only affects a few people.

"SPIEK" is possible in 6v6. It takes a lot more planning, and more than just "3 2 1", but it does work and can get a good amount of fame.

Razz L Dazzle · Dec 23, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Just fix song of concentration so it doesn't work on Ghostly Hero. GG.

First of all, i think that the discussion on song of concentration is better suited in the thread on possible skill change because i don't believe it is or was the reason for the decline of HA. Much of this thread has digressed from its original intent. Secondly, i see nothing wrong with bringing song and stability for a guaranteed cap. If a team kills your ghost, interrupts theirs and has the adrenaline to use song timed with the use of stability then in my mind that's good team work and they deserve to beat you. I believe that takes more skill than camping a seeking arrows ranger or PD mesmer on top of the platform continually spamming easy interrupts on an easily interruptable skill.

Much of the concern of this thread should center around how to refresh and invigorate HA. I think 'significant' map changes, increased and updated loot are a more plausible ways to help HA. While i liked HA better with 8 man teams and think it has better balance with 64 skills, i am not quite sure just making it 8 person teams will truly reinvigorate HA. Sure some old hard-core guilds and players may return but lots of new players may leave as well. Some players may never return because of how long its taken to decide to improve HA. I think HA should be seen as a place of "ongoing construction" where quick changes will take place to improve it without the threat of permanent changes without community support.

First change
Update and increase the chest reward. Offer gold and one gold item per player as a drop. Decrease the number of sigils to increase the price. Applying a fixed price of 100k or something comparably high is not a good idea. Even though i'd love the idea being that i have 30-40 of them lying around on different characters. A-net should offer a new sigil that is dropped less frequently. Allow players to sell old sigils then introduce new ones to restimulate the sigil market. I think making the HA chest truly a treasure chest would create interest from new pvp players and hard-core pvpers since most pvpers are poor. Other good ideas i've heard were the medallions and flames of balthazar.

Secondly, Maps should be reconsidered. Before anyone touches the mechanic of ghostly heroes and altar control i'd like to see some 'new maps.' Possibly a map that has more room to spread out than do the current maps.

Party size is one of the biggest concerns among the forums but i'm not sure people will just flood back into ID1,2,3,4,5,6,7 if 8v8 is back for good. I think it would have initial success but it would still have many problems to deal with including balance and skill updates..

-Razz

Tekish · Dec 23, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

I'm not comparing the Guild Lord to the Ghostly Hero, I'm comparing the objective of halls to the objective of GvG. Lets say you whipe a team a few times in GvG then some one sneeks off and ganks your lord, is that lame, is that imbalanced, no of course not, it's your fault because you weren't paying enough attention.

The only think that makes interupts difficult to counter is seeking arrows, which has two second activation time and requires an elite stance to make its duration last longer than its recharge. If you take away seeking arrows a guardian will allow to cap against a ranger interupter, if you bring SOD it's almost a certainty. Without seeking arrows ranger interupters are a joke. Remember seeking arrows ends if the ranger misses, there are plenty of skills that can make someone miss. The Ranger has to be able to use a skill every five seconds in order to interupt the ghost, there are plenty of skills to increase recharge time. Knock down the ranger, black him out?

Remember just because it take time to locate and neutralize interupters, so don't go in at the last 30 seconds like a retard.

If you're running a gimmick that lacks utility skills *cough* bloodspike *cough* I'll just laugh at you.

If ANET feels that interupts in halls are a serious problem they should nerf seeking arrows, it is unnecesary to change halls.

You seem to be missing the point. I'm well aware there are counters for interrupts - there are counters for everything in this game. That's not my problem.

My problem is bringing either or simply isn't fun. And that's the same reason why I don't tombs anymore - because it's been same stuff over and over since the beginning. GvG is more dynamic, the nature of the mode allows for a greater variety of gameplay, and that keeps it entertaining. HA is the same old thing, and hasn't really changed significantly since it was first implemented.

Yeah there's been a few minor map changes, but the basic mechanics are still there, and in my opinion, those mechanics are its greatest flaw. I feel a substantial change to the overall mode is the only way to improve HA for the better. So why not start with boring aspect of all - the altar maps.

Earendil · Dec 23, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

So ...to recap. Gaile starded a thread asking us for opinions on how to make HA a better experience. There were a few pages of decent and polite presentations of various and often contradictory points of view. Then, some regulars of these forums flooded it with the usual stuff: noob calling, F words, IWAY sucked, etc. Add a few debates on specific skills (those were actually somehow on topic till it turned into flaming...). Guess some things never change and the guaranteed extra visibility did not help.

In my understanding the 6 vs 8 debate is linked to the overall concept for HA.

If Anet wants HA to be a top level PvP arena, similar to GvG, then you have to make it 8v8 - 6 simply doesnt leave enough space for skill vs build.

IF Anet wants HA to become the "missing link" between totally casual PVP and top level PVP (also known as mid level PVP - something that does not exist right now) than 6v6 is the right option.

There were FOTMS in 8v8 and there are in 6v6. The variety in builds does not depend on the 6 or 8 but on many other factors. I still remember the time when you could not bring anything but ranger spirits spammers in HA and hexes/enchants were impossible to use because of nature renewal spammers.

The altars are the specific of HA. They could be broken and exploitable but it makes more sense to fix them than remove them.

Anyway - please remember this thread was started by Gaile with a purpose and be responsible when you post.

And also remember that if you're very good at playing a game it does not actually mean you "own" it. An R0 player has just as much right (at least to express their opinions) as a R20. Being a "noob" does not mean you have no right to speak.