Curse

Jane Loves You · Dec 22, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

well, if you didnt leave the game, what will prevent you from buying an account, farm it to rank say 6 and sell it on ebay when you got a build that wins almost all of the time?

lol @ you. :P

Just because you do this doesn't mean everyone else does it.

Anyway, back on topic.

Bring 8v8 back because...
-Variety. The variety of builds is extremely poor, with only two types of builds in HA at the moment. high defence or high offence. Like everyone else has said, rolling the dice has become the new decider of who wins.

-Heroes. Seriously, what were you thinking about? Heroes in PvP, did you take a look at what PvP stands for? last time I cheked HA was a part of the Player Vs Player system not Player + His/Her Automated Buddies Vs Player. The object of teams in HA now is to survive the mass output of SF by Zhed and Acylote. Ban Heroes Full Stop.

-Lack Of Enthusiasm. To me it seems like winning against Heroes just doesn't seem like an achievement. I played 6v6 for like.. 2 weeks after it came, and I got tired of winning against a bunch of noobs that got their heroes to lvl 20 in PvE and decided to nuke the HA veterans.

In the first place, can we please re-assess the weekend of 6v6 and double fame. Hmm, lets see here. If you were looking into changing 8v8 to 6v6, was it really a fair decider to add a DOUBLE FAME weekend along with the test of 6v6? Seems pretty darn stupid to me. I think everyone is gonna be pretty happy from getting double fame, thus they are going to say they enjoyed the weekend, NOT NECESSARILY the actual 6v6. That was a bit of a mistake IMO.

Randomway Ftw · Dec 22, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Anet please do not change the objective of halls just because a few people don't like altar maps/have problems with them, that's ridiculous its like removing the guild lord because ganking is lame.

phoenixtech · Dec 22, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Hi, my name is Song of Concentration, I have a two second activation time, and cost 8 Adrenaline. I only effect Allies who are Within Earshot, which means that when I'm used, someone from the other team should be within range of the player using me. If that someone has interrupts, is able to identify that the Paragon or /Paragon is using me, doesn't entirely suck at Guild Wars and have a 14.2k connection on top of that, I get interrupted.

You realise that PD "Disables" the skill too, right? So like, it goes straight through Song of Concentration... No wai wtfhaxwtfhaxwtfhax!1!!

You can't PD claim resource even with Song of Conc on. Unless you mean to interrupt song, then you end up trying to interrupt both the paragon or /p with song AND the ghostly on BOTH teams. Good luck with tracking that many targets.

Here's an idea to fix the whole altar mechanic. Have the ghostly at the beginning GIVE you the claim resource skill (Much like Kunnivan at faction's last mission). One (or more depending on how anet wants to balance this) player can choose to sub out the skill. The team with the most # of caps at the altar win. This way you can't be uber defensive or offensive since you have to spend time capping the skill and consider out-capping your opponents. It's just something I thought up randomly so prob needs refinement.

Also, in the last State of the game, ANET announced a tournament system, but requires people to be in a guild for 30 days and be from the same guild. Good idea for GvG and anti-smurfing measure but I think a tournament system for HA would be great. Something like tournaments every hour and double elimination format or something. The whole segment of HA is mostly for people who can't put together a team of 8 guildies for 30 days to all show up at the same time. Having a tournament style that allows us to use some pugs or mostly flist would be great.

Gaile, I will give you a quick summary of 6v6/8v8. As you noticed there are two segments of the gaming population. The hardcore players and the casual players. The hardcore players want to compete and believe that player skills should determine the outcome of the game thus favor 8v8. The casual players focus more on the ability to participate and have some fun while they are at it.

With the tournament matching system in HA you can kill two birds with one stone. Have a regular 6-man HA and a tournament 8-player HA. This will allow Inexperienced people to play regular HA and gain experience with the maps and objectives. Experienced people who can field a team of 8 of their flist/guildies can enter the tournament that are held every hour or so (via talking to a tournament NPC or something) and play in a real tournament format system competing with the best players in the game. I would imagine something like this wouldn't be too difficult to implement since you guys are already doing it for GvG.

Give a new title track for "tournament" wins for HA as well as fame for both regular and tournament HA and you kill three birds with one stone. Elite players will judge skill on tournament wins, casual to mid level players will use rank. Instead of emote for tournament wins, have a trophy case at HA that will display the top 100 or so players with the highest # of tournament wins.

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 22, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Well, I don't know about the "or it will die" comment.

However, I definitely agree that we want more PvP players. (One point of proof: The PvP Primer is designed to sprout and nurture those we hope will stay active in PvP.) But one of the positive outcomes of the change to 6v6 involved the numbers: If you have 4 - play TA or RA; if you have 8 - play GvG. 6v6 seems like a really good mid-ground option looking at the numbers. I don't mean to argue other points, only to submit that yes, including Heroes and changing the number of participants does seem like to have had positive outcomes through increasing accessibility to newer players. And we do want to grow the community of PvP players in many ways. It's unfortunate that we can'toffer--as players suggested to me yesterday in HA itself--a nice tidy 7v7.

Um...

First off, bringing back 8v8 will bring back more players. So that solves the player count point. New players? They have the LFG system, which means they can find groups easily. 8v8 would be fine now.

6v6 in HA is NOT good mid-ground. Why? There's 10 professions, and normally 4 spots to customize, using a 2 monk backline. Everyone was used to 8v8, with variety in builds. 6v6 feels like team arena, which we don't want. We want the feel of 8v8.

Why were there more players with 6v6? Because people could grab heroes and hench, and go attempt to farm fame. That isn't what PvP should be. Now that heroes are limited, some people have left again, because they can't grab NPCS and let them do the work.

HA was meant for 8v8, and should be 8v8. Simple as that.

Mental Leteci · Dec 22, 2006, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Anet please do not change the objective of halls just because a few people don't like altar maps/have problems with them, that's ridiculous its like removing the guild lord because ganking is lame.

Or like resizing HA to 6v6 because new players had a problem with 8v8. I just on't understand that part, we were also new to 8v8 HA, but no one ever complained. I started to play "Tombs" when there was already a rank 9 guy there + I was playing a mesmer which wasn't the best character to play in spirit spam time and I still didn't complain how I can't get a party.

Also,
6v6 team arena would be the best solution (maybe even 10v10 GvG, but don't want to push it now

) and 8v8 HA would make it alive again.

Someone also mentioned that there is less holding now than in 8v8... Do you really think it's because of the party size? It's cause of the Song of Concentraition, I held a lot with 6v6 before Nightfall came.

phasola · Dec 22, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

As Leteci says, Song needs to be worked on.
Before, you could afford to recap, let ghost die and interupt other ghosts, etc. But Song forces you to go more defense since recapping isn't an option.

Sunrah Nubian · Dec 22, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

I have read this entire thread, and I am beginning to think that most of you you subscribe to the, "If I whine the most and the loudest, I will get my way" theory. Instead of wasting so much time arguing 6v6 or 8v8, maybe you could try a different approach.

If you are an 8v8 advocate, try approaching this thread in terms of what they could do in 6v6 to make it fun again, and vice versa if you are a 6v6 advocate. Clearly, no matter which way Anet goes, there will be some people crying like it is the end of the world, but I think your time would be spent a lot more constructively if you attempted to think a litle independently and try to come up with some ideas that would make HA more fun no matter what the party size.

And to those that have done that, Good on ya!

Phoenix Ex · Dec 22, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

HA was design to be the confluence of PvP where hardcore and casual players would meet (or collide). Casual teams are excited about having a 3 game run and earning a bit of fame while a top team expects to enter HoH and judge success by consecutive times holding halls. Both communities can coexist in HA if both communities are large enough. When IWAY was prevalent, the community size was large enough for both player groups. Over time the casual community collapsed which meant their was no place for casual gamers in HA. With no casual community feeding the hardcore community new "members", the hardcore crowd started to die by attrition.

GvG is different because there are hundreds of "bad" guilds which play each other, but rarely see time on observer mode. You get active guilds right through rank 1000 and during primetime you'll have plenty of completely casual guilds battling it out with some not so great builds.

This post pretty much sums it all. GvG has a guild rating pairing system where bad guild usually faces other bad guilds and slowly learn stuff to get better. HA on the other hand have an unbalanced system where most of the time the casual players spent 2hrs forming a group, only to go in and get slaughter by a team that played 1000 hours more than they, and get absolutely nothing out of the run.

What should be done is to add a rank pairing system into HA, where a team of a certain rank should only be teamed up with another team of similar rank. Then casual players can finally play a decent game that isn't "boom, boom, go back to town" and the hardcore players probably won't complain as much about facing too many boring newbie teams....

Although I think what would happen instead is hardcore players complaining they can't slaughter newbie teams then dance on their corpse flashing emote....

tomcruisejr · Dec 22, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtech

Give a new title track for "tournament" wins for HA as well as fame for both regular and tournament HA and you kill three birds with one stone. Elite players will judge skill on tournament wins, casual to mid level players will use rank. Instead of emote for tournament wins, have a trophy case at HA that will display the top 100 or so players with the highest # of tournament wins.

no need for new title. just an NPC or trophy case that will record the ranking of the best hardcore serious 8vs8 HA players is enough. keeping 6vs6 HA as a middle ground for 8vs8 HA sounds good too. but before implementing 8vs8 HA, the maps need to be reworked, having varied objectives so that they will showcase the actual player skill and wont favor a single build (e.g Hall of The Heroes objective can be a relic run, annihilation, king of the hill, ala - cantha pve timed mission or AB, capping flags, dodgeball or even snowball or hybrid of those

).

gj on that post.

tomcruisejr · Dec 23, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

i just checked TGH and a respected long time pvper posted something bout the issue of 8vs8 vs 6vs6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuntz

Repost:

Mainly team creation, secondary 6v6 destroys a lot of holding builds which relied on a few of the 64 skills for spike kills.

-There was way too many times when there was 6-7 players around wanting to tombs, but not 8. By the time you got 8, one of the 6-7 has to leave, this continues daily and you never end up tombing. Or, most of the time you'd pug GvG since it's the most fun of the 8v8 modes. 6v6 opens up a new mode for smaller groups of players/friends.

-6v6 removes most of the holding builds that did exist and could ever exist in the future. To spike now you must sacrifice a larger percentage of availble skills therefor making yourself weaker for holding, allowing balanced builds with players who are familiar with pressure to stand a chance.

Basically 6v6 solved two of my biggest problems with tombs. Only map changes could solve the rest.

edit-People who miss 8v8 are high ranked famers who just wanted to farm noobs with cheap builds, that's why they're mad. They can't farm fame as easily and/or will require more skill to do so. People generally get mad when they're stupid simple game farming techniques get owned from an update, ie 6v6.

hxxp://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showpost.php?p=537525&postcount=43

if you intend to make an official post here, ill delete this msg.

master_of_puppets · Dec 23, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

There was way too many times when there was 6-7 players around wanting to tombs, but not 8. By the time you got 8, one of the 6-7 has to leave, this continues daily and you never end up tombing. Or, most of the time you'd pug GvG since it's the most fun of the 8v8 modes. 6v6 opens up a new mode for smaller groups of players/friends.

Too many times there was 3-4 people who had to find 2 more to make a group so now they should reduce the HA team size from 6 to 4, GG

Quote:

-6v6 removes most of the holding builds that did exist and could ever exist in the future. To spike now you must sacrifice a larger percentage of availble skills therefor making yourself weaker for holding, allowing balanced builds with players who are familiar with pressure to stand a chance.

Theres probably more holding builds now than there was in 8 v 8.

Quote:

People who miss 8v8 are high ranked famers who just wanted to farm noobs with cheap builds, that's why they're mad. They can't farm fame as easily and/or will require more skill to do so. People generally get mad when they're stupid simple game farming techniques get owned from an update, ie 6v6.

Why are you using an argument like this. Oh yeah I forgot its because you never played any cheap builds to farm noobs and no IWAY was completely fine, even with the attack speed bug, it was perfectly balanced. And saying that people dont farm fame in 6 v 6 is bullsh*t, ever hear of searing flames?

Anyway, back to the actual topic:
HA needs new map changes to make it so reliant on defense and interrupts. Right now altar maps are plain crap, find the other team's r/p, try to interrupt song, prevent kd, kill ghost, oh noez forgot to infuse blah blah. Thats why there is little variety. Someone designs a holding build that works , everyone uses it and some team holds for 20+ times in a row. New maps may be a lot to ask but they will have huge advantages. 8 v 8 should be restored too why should thegameplay suck just to favor scrubs who dont put in the effort to make a group of 8 so they want groups of 6.

TLLOTS · Dec 23, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

First up I'd like to say I have very little HA experience, so those of you who wish to simply discard my opinions, there's your way of doing so

Having read this thread and others like it, it seems quite clear that for many 6vs6 is being used as a scapegoat for all of the recent issues in HA. It was particularly unfortunate that it was implemented around the introduction of hero's and paragons which certainly would have been problematic in 8vs8 as well, however given the recent change to 6vs6 which a vocal number of guild wars players opposed it became an easy target. Note that I'm not saying 6vs6 is without its own problems, however it has been unfairly deemed the cause of the problems. Personally I'm not too bothered with either of them. I prefer 6vs6 simply because it makes it easier to get groups going, however beyond that I'm not particularly in favour of one or the other.

One issue in particular that I believe is unfairly blamed upon 6vs6 is the rise of particularly defensive or particularly offensive builds with no real middle ground (read balanced) for the builds. The arrival of these builds with 6vs6 is the symptom of a problem that 6vs6 only served to make more apparent, but was still present in 8vs8. The problem I refer to is of course altar maps and having your team tied to an ethereal boat anchor, otherwise known as a ghostly hero. Invariably having the end goal of HA as holding an altar forces people to build around that, where they're no longer building to defeat players, they're building to defeat the clock. This of course means that defense is highly valued, and as a natural result, offensive teams appear when defense becomes too prevalent.

What is the point of all of this? If I am indeed right and the heavy defensive and heavy offensive builds appearing is merely a symptom of the problem, then there are two potential paths that can be taken. Either treat the symptom or treat the problem. Treating the symptom means you make it harder for heavy defensive builds to reign supreme by giving more options to the players in their build, meaning 8vs8. Treating the problem means drastically altering the way altar matches work, potentially removing them entierly. I personally favour fixing the problem, simply because I find altar matches boring and I typically come out of them feeling dumber than when I went in even after a victory due to the type of play they encourage. What the solution is I really can't say, just so long as it encourages more balanced styles of play I'll be happy.

Randomway Ftw · Dec 23, 2006, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLOTS

First up I'd like to say I have very little HA experience, so those of you who wish to simply discard my opinions, there's your way of doing so

Having read this thread and others like it, it seems quite clear that for many 6vs6 is being used as a scapegoat for all of the recent issues in HA. It was particularly unfortunate that it was implemented around the introduction of hero's and paragons which certainly would have been problematic in 8vs8 as well, however given the recent change to 6vs6 which a vocal number of guild wars players opposed it became an easy target. Note that I'm not saying 6vs6 is without its own problems, however it has been unfairly deemed the cause of the problems. Personally I'm not too bothered with either of them. I prefer 6vs6 simply because it makes it easier to get groups going, however beyond that I'm not particularly in favour of one or the other.

One issue in particular that I believe is unfairly blamed upon 6vs6 is the rise of particularly defensive or particularly offensive builds with no real middle ground (read balanced) for the builds. The arrival of these builds with 6vs6 is the symptom of a problem that 6vs6 only served to make more apparent, but was still present in 8vs8. The problem I refer to is of course altar maps and having your team tied to an ethereal boat anchor, otherwise known as a ghostly hero. Invariably having the end goal of HA as holding an altar forces people to build around that, where they're no longer building to defeat players, they're building to defeat the clock. This of course means that defense is highly valued, and as a natural result, offensive teams appear when defense becomes too prevalent.

What is the point of all of this? If I am indeed right and the heavy defensive and heavy offensive builds appearing is merely a symptom of the problem, then there are two potential paths that can be taken. Either treat the symptom or treat the problem. Treating the symptom means you make it harder for heavy defensive builds to reign supreme by giving more options to the players in their build, meaning 8vs8. Treating the problem means drastically altering the way altar matches work, potentially removing them entierly. I personally favour fixing the problem, simply because I find altar matches boring and I typically come out of them feeling dumber than when I went in even after a victory due to the type of play they encourage. What the solution is I really can't say, just so long as it encourages more balanced styles of play I'll be happy.

Having very little HA experience it is unlikely that you, you probably have even less experience on altar maps, broken tower is not an accurate of example of what courtyard and halls are like. In high end altar maps you have to decide what strategies you will use, which ghost to bodyblock, which one to interupt, whether to give up the altar and recap, when to cap which way you bring your ghost to the altar to avoid bodyblcoking among other things.

Altar maps are not jut wait till 1:30 then zerg altar, dump 15 meteor showers and spam sf on altar, put up song, cap, and win. Altar maps are not the problem 6v6 is.

Burst Cancel · Dec 23, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

1. A game needs to foster constant improvement of its best players, or else the game becomes stagnant. A competitive game thrives primarily at the highest levels of play. There's no reason to play a competitive game unless you feel challenged, and the only way to maintain that challenge is to have other players who are as good or better than you, and who are constantly getting better. Games evolve because of the top-tier players and their improvements, everyone else is just learning from them. On this matter the casual-gamer crowd has nothing to say, because they never were and probably never will be the top-end players that define the competitive scene. However, this needs to be balanced with ...

2. The casual gamer pays the bills. The unfortunate reality is that most of the people who buy games, even traditionally competitive ones like fighting, RTS, or FPS games, are not the serious, hardcore players that will improve the game - rather, they are the people who are playing for fun and are just along for the ride. This means that, in order for any game to survive financially, there has to be something there for the casual gamer as well.

The trick, then, is how to balance the need to hook casual players and the need to improve the game at the highest levels of play. Most competitive games do this through their CPU mode, whether it's the 'campaign' in an RTS, 'arcade/story mode' in a fighting game, or PvE in GW. A lot of the people I meet who play Street Fighter would never consider joining a big tournament, but they continue to buy the games because there's still some fun to be had beating the snot out of the CPU with flashy combos and super moves. Similarly, the majority of Starcraft players will never go beyond Big Game Hunters, and there's a certain kind of fun to be had there that almost anyone can enjoy. Why isn't this good enough for Guild Wars? (this is not a rhetorical or sarcastic question)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

Holding HoH for hours should not happen. It used to happen in the 8v8 days a lot more than it happens now (after the EF nerf). This can be easily checked through statistics.

Why should holding halls for hours not happen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

So - there is a choice to make here: how important should player skill be in winning ? (It's actually a legit question - if you do as in GvG where player skill is the most important factor - you are chasing away less skilled players who will find it pointless to try if they know their chances of winning are very low)

Those are not the attitudes of a competitive player. A truly competitive player will face a superior team with the mindset of fighting as hard as they can and learning something. Serious players of any game don't go into a match thinking, "Oh, that guy's a lot better than me, I might as well not try."

Example: fighting games. The people who take the game seriously, even the newbies and intermediate players, will drive for hours or fly to out-of-state/overseas tournaments, and pay all of the associated time and monetary cost just to have the **** beaten out of them by the top-tier players. Why? Because every time they play a top player, they learn something, and if they're serious about the game, this gradual learning will eventually pay off. The scrub players, the living-room warriors, are the ones that think, "there's no point in going to the tournament, I'll just lose anyway".

GW players have even less excuse. You don't have to go anywhere or pay anything - you can play top guilds from the safety and comfort of your own home. If you can't be bothered to do that just because you think you're going to get trashed by Godly Guild X, then you simply aren't cut out for competition, end of story. Those aren't the kinds of players a competitive scene wants.

You can take a look at the GvG environment itself for examples. There are tons of active GvG teams, most of which will never make it to the top 32 that actually matter. Do you think these guilds just give up when they face better teams? Or do you think they prepare themselves to fight as best as they can and try to take away something worthwhile even if they (probably) lose? By your reckoning, everyone below top-100 should be 'driven away' and discouraged by their inability to beat top-10 teams because skill is such an overwhelming factor. That's clearly not the case.

My final point is this: sacrificing the importance of skill just to make the game more friendly to the casual players at the bottom of the pool is directly contrary to the spirit of any kind of competitive game.

phoenixtech · Dec 23, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

So why didn't you bring them, you knew you would be facing seeking/savage in halls, why didn't you bring/use them? It isn't like those skills are useless otherwise, they could easily fit into a build. Wow a skill that actualy requires targeting the enemy to counter, instead of a monk enchanting your ghostly, wow how lame.

Its like like playing a build that can't split in gvg and complaining about how lame it is when the other team splits.

How about this, make GVG have a completley random objective, why does it always end with the guild lord dying? That's so lame it only promotes one type of game play.

How come the other team can always cap ovber our falg, that's so lame, what? I don't want to half to stall their runner, make flag control ab style instead.

Maybe you are not a native English speaker, but no where in my post did I ever mention I had any problems countering interrupts. Once again, I stated that people are going to favor their style of play. Rotating objectives at HOH would be beneficial to gameplay. HOH and GvG are totally different gametypes so don't even try to draw parallels between them, even if you were there's the whole VOD + different environmental conditions from different maps in GvG that kind of acts like a rotating objective.

Either way, please post something constructive instead of trying to flamebait. The topic of discussion here is whether the ALTAR mechanics should be changed. We've stated our opinions on why it should be changed for the better, your only opinion so far is "it's always been this way so it shouldn't be changed."

dgb · Dec 23, 2006, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Hi, my name is Song of Concentration, I have a two second activation time, and cost 8 Adrenaline. I only effect Allies who are Within Earshot, which means that when I'm used, someone from the other team should be within range of the player using me. If that someone has interrupts, is able to identify that the Paragon or /Paragon is using me, doesn't entirely suck at Guild Wars and have a 14.2k connection on top of that, I get interrupted.

You realise that PD "Disables" the skill too, right? So like, it goes straight through Song of Concentration... No wai wtfhaxwtfhaxwtfhax!1!!

If you honestly think that you can afford to bring four characters that have interupts in every build (2x ghostly, 2x looking for SoC on each team), you're kidding yourself.

SoC means that you can't play a holding build based around interupts. No matter how good you are, eventually you're going to miss a SoC going off and you're going to lose. That means that the only way you can hold is to keep your ghostly alive which leads to utterly fun-sapping dfensive builds being the norm. Especially with 6v6 but I'd argue that it would be the same in 8v8, you just can't fit enough interupts in to make a playable build.

It's not actually a problem with SoC in itself, but the end objective of HA. That needs to be changed far more than SoC does, but it's a harder job. Until then, I'd argue that banning SoC from HA would do far more to make the tournament fun than leaving it in.

PD also doesn't work on a SoC'd ghostly.

Nurse With Wound · Dec 23, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

i just checked TGH and a respected long time pvper posted something bout the issue of 8vs8 vs 6vs6.

I dont care whats posted on TGH, and I dont give a damn what some Te dude thinks about it. Hes not some kind of guru or idol here, also he obviously knows very little about HA. Its clear he never actually played it seriously, because all his statements are false and/or innacurate. Quote some actual HA players, not gvg dudes, if you're short on arguments yourself.

His post

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunz

There was way too many times when there was 6-7 players around wanting to tombs, but not 8. By the time you got 8, one of the 6-7 has to leave, this continues daily and you never end up tombing. Or, most of the time you'd pug GvG since it's the most fun of the 8v8 modes. 6v6 opens up a new mode for smaller groups of players/friends

Well if you dont have enough reliable friends to form a real team, why dont you go to Team Arenas?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunz

-6v6 removes most of the holding builds that did exist and could ever exist in the future. To spike now you must sacrifice a larger percentage of availble skills therefor making yourself weaker for holding, allowing balanced builds with players who are familiar with pressure to stand a chance

Mr. Kunz here has never seen HA ( maybe on screenshots ). This statement is ridiculus and completly false. Right now holding builds are much more issue than they ever were! HA is polluted with utterly defensive things ( new spirit spam for example ), thats hard to kill, because you have to sacrifice some offece yourself! The meta is stale, defensive and boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunz

edit-People who miss 8v8 are high ranked famers who just wanted to farm noobs with cheap builds, that's why they're mad. They can't farm fame as easily and/or will require more skill to do so. People generally get mad when they're stupid simple game farming techniques get owned from an update, ie 6v6.

E-PEEN to the MAX. Awesome logic and great psychologic insight. Translation : if you dont agree with only righeous opinion ( MINE ), you're fame farming noob. What a pompous and shallow individual. Let me rephrase. Mr. Kunz whoever the hell he is, is no guru here, so I dont really know why the hell you quoted him Syra.

Quote:

Originally Posted by defrule

Nurse, where is the BIG LONG POST you said you would make?

On one of the first pages of this thread I stated my opinion what should be done and why:P Scroll back

tomcruisejr · Dec 23, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Well if you dont have enough reliable friends to form a real team, why dont you go to Team Arenas?

if you got 6 players and youll go to team arena, 2 players will be displaced. you can't do either tombs or gvg but with a 6 man tombs, now you can do some meaningful pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Right now holding builds are much more issue than they ever were! HA is polluted with utterly defensive things ( new spirit spam for example ), thats hard to kill, because you have to sacrifice some offece yourself! The meta is stale, defensive and boring.

bring skills that deal with your problem maybe? and consider things such as positioning, natural expiration of spirits or whatever?

I just felt quoting him coz i think he's correct with his assessment. Coincidentally, he's a (former?) member of a quality guild, has been in game since i dont know maybe antiquity, he made entertaining and educational tombs and gvg videos and started the -way naming fad. if you know G-Stats, he's the programmer of that.

unless you want me to quote players such as leelof who prolly thinks that time = fame and forum time means less fame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

So I didn't say 6v6 sux because it sux. GG

maybe some other guy did, my bad. anyway :P.

Alleji · Dec 23, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Regarding Song of Concentration:

Of course, this is subjective, but I find "instant-cap" that song allows to be better than minute-long interruptfests. Consider this:

I've won games in HoH when my team was all dead on the floor at 1:00 remaining and the other two teams had 2 CG rangers each and just interrupted each other the rest of the match. I didn't deserve that win.
I've lost games in HoH when we wiped the holding team at 1:00 and couldn't cap because the other team packed 10 interrupts on 6 different characters in their build. The holding team didn't deserve that win.
I've had games on courtyard where all three teams go in right away and interrupt each other for 3.5 minutes and then all go back to fight the Zaishen again.
Not entirely lame, but still pretty cheesy: when your team is actually alive and instead of keeping the ghost up, you let him die and interrupt the other two teams for 2 minutes.

With Song, none of that happens. Yes, interrupt builds are a legitimate strategy, but when you hold against 2 interrupt builds and they win the game for you, that's just lame. If you lose the ghost after 2:00, 95% of the time, you lose the game. If you get wiped, you lose the game. Which is the way it should be IMO.

Also, a somewhat related suggestion for holding maps:

If a team loses their ghost and it can't be resurrected (i.e. it's past 2:00 in Courtyard or HoH) and that team doesn't have control of the altar, it gets a loss and gets removed from the game.

What this means is if you're red/yellow and haven't capped and your ghost gets killed, you're gone, instead of interfering with the game for the remaining 30 seconds. If you're blue, your ghost gets killed and someone caps, you're gone and can't screw over the team of your choice. On Broken Tower, this rule wouldn't apply because you have the orbs to res the ghost.

This mechanic would prevent teams that can't win the match from interfering with the two teams that are still fighting, taking out politics in favour of skill.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 23, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

maybe some other guy did, my bad. anyway :P.

Thanks. And I shouldn't have said this thread is 5 pages of bs.
anyway, back on topic

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

bring skills that deal with your problem maybe? and consider things such as positioning, natural expiration of spirits or whatever?

The point is, with only 6 players on your team you can't bring those skills that deal with your problem without sacrificing either the offense or the defense. =bad.

I'm not sure on having a team removed from the game if their ghost is killed after 2:00. It'd be kind of an easy way to win, wouldn't it? Just spike both ghosts and GG