Curse

Vital · Dec 22, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

8 v. 8 - Go back to the 8 v. 8 format as it gives teams the ability to use more diverse builds.
Maps - Add a single new map to begin with. Make sure that all non-alter maps have a VoD feature at 15 Minutes.
Heroes - DO NOT ALLOW HEROES IN HA, they have an arena.
Rewards - HoH chest drops should always be random, yet I think the items should be inscribable. Sigils are fine, but I wish they stacked.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 22, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

I think you should be sent to a different HA depending on your current rank. I just think that getting a group is way too hard when you are rank 0 as nobody wants you and the group you get in(if you can even find a group) are almost always doomed to failed in the first battle.

Is it impossible for unranked people to listen? Do you only earn the ability to listen when you get r10?
GET A F****NG FRIENDS LIST
And 8v8 plx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinically Proven

Two quick thoughts:

* 6v6 - Have 8 ---> GvG, Have 4 ---> TA. 6v6 is perfect in the middle and easier to organise 6 people over 8.

* New maps - variety, adding a 'freshness' to the whole place. GvG battles are updated with new halls every chapter why isnt HA? Furthermore, the maps and/or order of maps at present have some undesirable characteristics that work against exciting, fluid gameplay (holding builds, farming builds et al).

8v8--->Possible to bring counters to all gimmick builds while still maintaining good defense and offense.
6v6--->Not. Too few skill slots to do that. This results in a rock-paper-scissors game, which is not a good thing.
Therefore, 8v8>6v6
Infectious summed it up in one line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

with 6v6 its Buildwars not Guildwars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

- Keep 6 vs 6. Despite what alot of people say, this is a great change. Alot of thier claims that it limits you to either offense or defense are huge exaggerations, as well.

Please elaborate on why it's a huge exxageration.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scf Blacknight

Possibly add a second arena that runs 6v6 where fame can be obtained in a similar way. That way everyone is happy?

An extra 6v6 arena is a good idea, but not one that gives the same reward as HA. That way it'd be impossible to tell whether a high ranked person has earned his fame(=experience) in 6v6 or 8v8, which is quite a big difference
AND STOP COMPARING HA TO GVG
Thanks for stopping by, Gaile

ayame ftw · Dec 22, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

My thoughts about ha:

8v8
8v8 has more opportunities to make different builds and variation
8v8 the majority of the ha players don’t take advantage of the larger team size, to be original.
8v8 promotes spike more then 6v6
8v8 brings back iway
8v8 will make an even stronger holding build in the current ha format

6v6
6v6 has not enough options for every map type
6v6 allows to setup teams faster
6v6 looks to much like team arena’s with the exception of the maps
6v6 is getting boring after 2 months

Ha general
Hero’s have decreased the pvp concept of ha and encourage farming fame even more
Decreasing the team size can’t eliminate Fotm
There should be more ha maps/concepts that make it harder for spike’s to proceed to the hall of hero’s
There should be more ha maps/concepts that make it harder for holding builds to proceed to the hall of hero’s
There is no reward for being creative in ha, it doesn’t pay off
Changing the appearance off the map’s would make ha more attractive to play, and a welcome change after the release of 3 chapters

Lord Mendes · Dec 22, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

- More variety from the chest drops in HoH. Better alocation of drops. Inscribable and more "valuable" gold, superior fast cast and water wands are not that bad but not all the time.
- Bring back 8v8 blabla...
-Give us at least 2 weeks notice before you do some drastic changes to the gameplay in HA, so you can have some idea how the HA dwellers will react.
- Real "exciting new map changes". Also some environmental affects could be nice, such as the ice on frozen isle, lava on burning isle, "teleporting thingies", etc...
- No double fame weekends, last thing we need is a weekend of uber-fame farming. There already is enough of that in HA anyway.
- Help newbies find teams. NOTE: This does not mean turn HA into 4v4 or allow them to take customizable henchies. Party formation system is pretty good.

The Mental Shadow · Dec 22, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Gaile Grey you Cannot Judge if 6v6 is better then 8v8, like u ever play HA,

Anyway:

New Maps, Gvg, RA and TA gets new maps all the time HA doesnt.

Improve HoH chest drops, Sigil Value is total crap

8V8= more build possibility's with 6v6 its very limited.

Make Double Fame Permanet :P

Medion · Dec 22, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Keep it 6v6. Personally I enjoy 6v6 a lot more than 8v8 because I just enjoy it a lot more. Besides that party-forming goes faster with 6v6. I'm not sure what people mean with build-creativity when there is 8v8...because I've rarily met something original when playing 8v8 (Can't even remember the last original 8v8 build).

Remove Heroes totally please, maximum of 2 is a start but I really prefer 6 people vs 6 people.

Like suggested before, a few new maps would be nice. Especially with all the stuff you used in Factions/NF GvG/TA maps (Miasma, teleports, capping 'altars' like in AB's, maybe even some things we haven't seen yet

)

Orange Milk · Dec 22, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I like 6v6. With the holding builds that are out and about now I'd hate to see what would happen if we went back to 8v8 and the holders uped their holding abillites.

Fix the Relic Maps, They need a sudden death, I've lost too many of those becasue the team that is TRAILING the entire match wins because they get the last relic. thats poo IMO. No where in any other sport/game does that happen.

Make it sudden death with an Invincible Ghostly so a team HAS to get a relic to win. Note: the Ghostly can die all day during the normal time limit, but when the 0:00 hits and there is a tie, he gets Rezed and cannot die. Idea needs work, but those maps need fixed, I hate them.

Keep the Burial grounds out, I belive that map was removed to limit skips. I mean 5 teams eliminated at once is less to send on to the next map and ya get more skips. The number of skips has already increased now that HeroWay is gone. I'm all for whatever limits skips.

VoD on anialation is a great Idea. many many maps have rolled on for a 1/2 hour or so.

A new map or two would be nice

Altair · Dec 22, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

8v8--->Possible to bring counters to all gimmick builds while still maintaining good defense and offense.
6v6--->Not. Too few skill slots to do that. This results in a rock-paper-scissors game, which is not a good thing.
Therefore, 8v8>6v6
Infectious summed it up in one line.

I agree with you, but I also agree that could be fun to have an 6v6 pvp map (but not current HA).

Currently the 6v6 HA is composed with highly defensive build (which is boring) and highly offensive build, nothing in the middle.

As other said, new maps with new objectives
- put back burrial Mounds.
- Broken Tower : put back in 1vs1
- The court : 4 minutes is too short.
- Sacred Temples is too big for 6vs6
- better rewards

Limit the heroes in HA is good thing, HA is Players vs Players.

urania · Dec 22, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

6vs6 is ok since it killed many builds that were strong especially in 8vs8 system like iway, vimway...

HA should in no way nor manner be kept on same level as gvg.

make Halls 1vs1 with the winner being the one who manages to kill all of their opponents ie elimination, not time based.

time-based altar-holding maps suck since the win usually takes more luck than skills, but then again it's the only way to avoid endless matches vs holding builds...i guess

ToxicWasted · Dec 22, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Gaile Grey you Cannot Judge if 6v6 is better then 8v8, like u ever play HA,

Wow, hey, that might be the reason why she is asking here?

Anyway:

8 vs.8 - Should definetaly come back, it was just way more fun.
The argument that in 6 vs.6 there are no builds that beat all other builds, doesn't cut wood imho. It just shows that 6vs6 is more imbalanced than 8v8. Because, if you thought of a versatile build which works, you play it with good other players you should be able to beat pretty much.

New inventive map changes - Yes please, the maps got odd, I'd love to see some changes. (Just DON'T add any levers!)

Heroes - I feel like HA is already much better having only two of them, removing them completely wouldn't even be neccesary I think.

Reconnecting - Heard some rumours you were implanting a reconnect option, hope it's true, that would rock.

That's pretty much my wishlist, hope you can do something with it!
Good luck.

axe · Dec 22, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

I like the idea of 'unique' to HA weapons, I would actually like to expand more on that and suggest that certain HA weapon skins would have a rank requirement to equip them. Maybe tie them to the emote in looks (the glowy yellow as well as the animal) That would ROCK in my opinion

8v8 because there are just TOO many cool builds waiting to be discovered for this format.

I keep trying to think of ways to help out newer players to get into groups and not feel intimidated or discriminated against, but perhaps there could be a sub-arena to HA where you would form 4 person TA style teams and fight in a seperate tournament where after 5 consec. wins your 4 person team would merge with another 4 person team that also got 5 consec. and then get sent to the zaishen (or something like that) to help newer players show their skill as well as form the 'larger' sized parties and perhaps it would be a way for them to network with other players that demonstrate a desired level of skill.

I liked Burial Monds, I liked 2-Way Broken tower, I like the lever on scarred as it is optional and more teams are opting not to use that lever. But I am kind of fond of how HA is setup in terms of progression, I think adding maps each campaing and changing the look and feal of the maps would take away from it. I like how you start out at the bottom and each map becomes more 'Glorious' looking as you 'ascend' to the Hall of Heroes.

I dont think drastic map changes should be an item on the agenda quite yet. The 8v8 change alone will put HA on track for a turnaround, and from there skill/map adjustments can be evaluated to promote more versatile builds, variety, and fun.

phasola · Dec 22, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

It seems to me that 6v6 was implemented to make parties faster. Well now we have Party search function that should be fixed. Bring that back 8v8, who knows, maybe some people will come back...

Shanaeri Rynale · Dec 22, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

I dont HA much, but I dont see it as an either or..

6v6 for those who want an easy to form team for a quick run or so
8V8 for those who want a more varied style of gameplay for longer runs
Make the rewards for 6v6 different(say hoh but no favor gaining) to 8V8 but keep the fame for 6v6.
Some maps are now geared towards 6v6, make new 8v8 ones.
People want a natural progression from TA and 6V6 gives that. 8V8 would then be a natural progression of 6v6 etc.
Both would allow people to choose the type of gameplay each favors not have to choose between them.

I've read that AN would prefer to add stuff than reduce it. So don't remove 6V6 or add 8v8, create both. I know creating both is more work, but I belieive what the PvP scene needs is reinvigoration not the odd tweak or so.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 22, 2006, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mental Shadow

Gaile Grey you Cannot Judge if 6v6 is better then 8v8, like u ever play HA,

And you felt you needed to say this because.........?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mental Shadow

Make Double Fame Permanet :P

NO F****NG WAY YOU DON'T

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altair

I agree with you, but I also agree that could be fun to have an 6v6 pvp map (but not current HA).

Yes, it could, and probably will.
However, it should never give the same reward as 8v8 arena. THAT is the part I oppose. Fame is a way (I'll leave it to you if it's a good one or not) to tell someone's HA experience. If you give the same reward for another arena, how can you ever tell someone's HA experience? It would be like rewarding champion points for HA, or fame for TA.

And oh yeah, some people said in 6v6 there are no builds that beat all other builds. Let me explain something:
Builds that can beat all other builds (wait, let's call them 'balanced' from here) are a good thing. It gets us rid of gimmicks, it bases the outcome of battles on player skill instead of the player's skills, and prevents the rock-paper-scissors-situation you get when there are no balanced builds. If there are no balanced builds, you get build wars, not guild wars. Build Wars is a bad thing.

M'kay?

feAr^ · Dec 22, 2006, 05:14 PM // 17:14

First of all, thank you Gaile for creating this thread so people can tell their opinions.

i played a lot both 8v8 and 6v6 and this is my opinion about the old and current HA:

8v8 -With 8v8 you had a big diversity of builds, you spike, balanced, degen, holding, pressure and FOTM builds ( REMEMBER: FOTM BUILDS WILL ALWAYS EXIST). People actually play a lot with 8v8 and have fun, cause not everybody likes to GvG.

6v6 - Less diversity of builds, more proffesions in the game ( doesnt make much sense to me) , yes you can get party faster, but a match can last like 40 mins.. FOTM builds still exist ( they will always ) like jagged bones, paragonway , searing flames. The thing is with 6v6 there are like 5 FOTM builds and with 6v6 you cant make a counter build for more than 2 of them. So it's like, or you play FOTM or you wont pass scarred earth.

Maps - Same maps for more than 18 months is boring in my opinion, yes with some modifications since the last HA update, but still the same maps.

With the 6v6 update i saw much players leaving the game and many HA guilds ( yes they DO exist ) disbanding.
Most of the 6v6 supporters are players that PvE mostly, so please listen to those who play daily HA, at least once.
One thing ive noticed was the number of International districts that exist before 6v6 and after 6v6.
Before 6v6 -> 4,5,6 International districts
After 6v6 -> 2,3 International districts
Lets face the truth, before 6v6 more people played HA.

This are my suggestions to improve the current HA, things i think that will make HA a better PvP place:

New maps - Maybe the most important thing. People tired about playing the same maps everytime. Ha should have 3 new maps.

Make a new Mod - Dont know if everyone agrees with this, but in my opinion a new mod would attract more people to HA. At the moment we have KOTH match's, Relic runs, Deathmatch.

About the number of players per team - You should bring back 8v8 to balance HA again. There would be new builds, new stuff, more diversity, more entertainment.
This is my opinion about the PvP mod i played mostly in this game, and im sorry but the current HA does not satify me.

By the way, i don´t know when does the big skill update comes but Anet should make skill changes for the following skills:

Searing flames - I know you will change it and thank god for that, its a bit annoying

Song of concentration - Very unbalanced skill... it makes interrupters really useless, maybe change the skill so it does not affect the ghost or only prevent the interrupt once ... not the hole skill.
interrupt Rangers and Pd mesmers disapeared from HA since the skill came.

Soul Reaping - I think minions should only give 1/2 of the energy to soul reaping attribute.

Thank you for reading my post, HA was my favorite game type until 6v6 came. I really hope you make improvements to HA.

Best Regards

Fear

Frank Dudenstein · Dec 22, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

* Just to re-emphize what everyone is saying .. the maps are the problem ... particularly the last map. 62% of the maps (including the most important one) do not require you to kill a single damned thing ... so why would anyone bring offense? Rotating HoH objectives are the best idea ... because if there is a single consistent objective for HoH, everyone will just build for that...

* Someone else said it best: "Altars make the game be all about survival, when it should be about movement, killing, and objective completion. Admittedly some survival is needed, but nowhere near the level that altars require. Scrap the altar mechanic entirely." Perfect.

* I think 6v6 is great ... in a gametype that relies so much on pugs, ease of party formation SHOULD be a priority. (And for all of you that are whining that you can't get every skill you want on your bar ... too freaking bad I guess you'll have to adapt :-)

* I guess i'm in the minority here ... but I think the "max 2 heroes" compromise was just fine. I don't find 2-hero teams to be too prevalent or boring to fight, besides they don't get by Broken Tower much anyway. So if that helps more people get into the game and eases party formation .. I'm all for it.

Thanks for your time Gaile!

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 22, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

Gaile,

1. Keep 6v6. I enjoy seeing new builds and new strategies for HA. I feel that a lot of the people that left HA were people that only played Bloodspike or IWAY. I know a lot of people that continue to play HA because they enjoy the challenge of coming up with new builds. 6v6 has refreshed HA and we still have not seen the variety of builds that will be developed over time.

2. Keep it to 2 heroes or less. Heroway was rather annoying because, as has been stated, it was not a challenge. And PvP should be a challenge of skills amongst players, not amongst AI.

3. Additional rewards would be nice.

4. Map changes would be nice as well.

1. New builds and strategies? Are you sure you're playing HA? There's 3-4 builds being ran. Thats it. New strategies? Um... What? There were loads more builds and strategies in 8v8...

With 3-5 spots (1-2 being your monks/healers, 1 warrior/melee) that gives absolutely NO room to be creative. What do we have now? Spirit spam, SF, heal balls, and your almost identical pressure builds. Thats it. What did 8v8 have? Here's a small list:

IWAY (I hate it, but it's a build)
VIMWAY (same as above)
Dual Migraine
Edenial
Spikes
Heavy Pressure
Hex and/or condition overload (degen)
High shutdown (anti caster+melee)
Gimmick builds (quite fun)
Etc etc..

2-4. I wouldn't mind.

So yeah, please bring back 8v8.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

It seems to me that 6v6 was implemented to make parties faster. Well now we have Party search function that should be fixed. Bring that back 8v8, who knows, maybe some people will come back...

Exactly. Hence why 8v8 would work now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

* I think 6v6 is great ... in a gametype that relies so much on pugs, ease of party formation SHOULD be a priority. (And for all of you that are whining that you can't get every skill you want on your bar ... too freaking bad I guess you'll have to adapt :-)

HA should NOT rely on pugs that often. Building up friend lists means no pugs. Joining a guild means no pugs. Ease of party formation was already answered. A LFG system. Your points mean nul about how 6v6 is better now.

For those who were in id2 last night, you'd know the majority of PvPers want 8v8 back. There was literally nonstop spamming of "bring back 8v8" etc. Bringing back 8v8 -> bringing back players -> no more inactivity in HA. Simple as that.

supaet · Dec 22, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

I just can't stand people say that 6v6 has less gimmick builds and more original builds. Are you kidding me? does your "original build" have two monks? you're left with 4 other characters for your team. How "original" can it be? whatever you do, you can only mess around with 4 character build. With 8v8 you can decide between 2 or 3 monks, and even with 3 monks, you have 5 characters so it's has more combination.

It is PEOPLE that run gimmick builds not 8v8. And 6v6 do not get rid of gimmick builds either. 6v6 DID NOT KILL VIMWAY! the skill VIM did! It is the SKILLS that cause people to run gimmick builds, not the fact it's 8v8.

Some say that with 8v8 holding builds are more powerful, that is not true. look, the holding team gain two players, but the non holding teams gain 2 x number of teams fighting against the holding team. And with 8v8, you simply have more option and diversity to have a chance in every map and against every build. So the match is not decided by which map you skip to or which gimmick build you face.

Zui · Dec 22, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Song of concentration - Very unbalanced skill... it makes interrupters really useless, maybe change the skill so it does not affect the ghost or only prevent the interrupt once ... not the hole skill.
interrupt Rangers and Pd mesmers disapeared from HA since the skill came.

Hi, my name is Song of Concentration, I have a two second activation time, and cost 8 Adrenaline. I only effect Allies who are Within Earshot, which means that when I'm used, someone from the other team should be within range of the player using me. If that someone has interrupts, is able to identify that the Paragon or /Paragon is using me, doesn't entirely suck at Guild Wars and have a 14.2k connection on top of that, I get interrupted.

You realise that PD "Disables" the skill too, right? So like, it goes straight through Song of Concentration... No wai wtfhaxwtfhaxwtfhax!1!!

Earendil · Dec 22, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Thanks for the thread Gaile ! Please keep in mind that the people playing and the people posting groups are not completely identical. You should always rely more on objective data (like your own ingame statistics) to evaluate topics like "how many FoTMs - how much variety in skills", "how long games are in 6v6 compared to 8v8" or "how easier it is to hold the HoH a long time in 6v6 compared to 8v8".

The 6 vs 8 debate has a side that noone wants to name so far and yet is the most important IMO: what are the odds for a team of well coordinated experienced HA players to lose against a medium to low level team ? Does playing skill and experience grant you victory in 99% of the fights against less skilled and experienced people ?

The main complaint after the introduction of 6v6 came from experienced (and skilled) HA players who found themselves losing at some points against less good teams, mostly because of build issues - no way to fit the same amount of utility on 6 skill bars. If you go 3 monks you'll have problems killing. If you go two monks you'll have problems holding an altar against 2 teams - its also way harder to provide defensive skills to counter all possible forms of damage: pressure, spike, conditions, life drain, hexes etc.

Top HA people got angry mostly because they (obviously) do not like to lose when they feel they are more skilled than their enemy. They are usually the more vocal and more experienced on forums like these.

However - on the other side,in 6v6 if you are not top skilled and you see a team that obviously outskills you, you will still try, for you know now that you might still have a chance.

Holding HoH for hours should not happen. It used to happen in the 8v8 days a lot more than it happens now (after the EF nerf). This can be easily checked through statistics.

So - there is a choice to make here: how important should player skill be in winning ? (It's actually a legit question - if you do as in GvG where player skill is the most important factor - you are chasing away less skilled players who will find it pointless to try if they know their chances of winning are very low)

Skill or Build - that is the question. If you think that player skill is the most important part - bring back 8v8 - we will have again a group of about 3-400 players (could be checked through statistics too) that will dominate HA, mostly because they are better at it. If you want the less skilled people to still have a chance at victory, be it by luck or build, keep 6 v 6. You will have a lot of mid level (skill wise) people fighting each other and caping HOH once or twice per day. The top PVPers will either leave, move to GvG or adapt to the idea that you can still lose even if you are better than the enemy - you just rolled a 1 on a devastating critical