Curse

Scf Blacknight · Dec 22, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Simply Put, 6v6 is just low enough to limit strategic options of Hero's Ascent teams.

Possibly add a second arena that runs 6v6 where fame can be obtained in a similar way. That way everyone is happy?

Phoenix Ex · Dec 22, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Fix rank problems...I dunno how they are going to do it without removing the emote/title, but, I'm sure the smart devs at ANet can think of something.

Razz L Dazzle · Dec 22, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

I would like to see 8 v 8 come back. I'm glad heroes have been limited but many HAers miss the days of 8v8. I know that means blood spike, spikes, and IWAY will reemerge but with more skills and new classes many top players will find new exciting builds to beat some of the old hated builds. With the new group system hopefully new players will be able to find 8 v 8 teams.

Most of us are unhappy with current chest drops in the heroes ascent chest. Please update the loot so that we can get some truly desirable items for our time and accomplishment. Make the chest truly a 'treasure' chest. From this chest pours out gold, one-gold item per player and a sigil. Most of us PvPers are a poor lot and don't like getting 'gold grawl gear' all the time. Maybe the chance of rare inscribable weapons or weapons exclusive to HA chests.

Refresh HA with some 'exciting' map changes. The vault is really cool but sees no actual use. A new map entirely is not a bad idea either.

New players and old players need a good incentive to reinvigorate HA. 8v8, better chests, fresh new maps would go a long way in starting to remake HA.

sai987 · Dec 22, 2006, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Gaile thanks for giving us a chance to share our thoughts on HA. There are many threads about HA already but a compilation of ideas on a dev created thread seems very productive. Anyway, here's what I think:

6v6 vs 8v8 I strongly support keeping 6v6. You can play 1on1 at hero battles, 4v4 at arenas, 8v8 at gvg and 12v12 at alliance battles (you can only form a team of 4 but it's still 12v12 and anyway forming a 12 man team would be way too time consuming). It's only natural to have the option of a 6v6 as well. It means reworking old strategies, using different skills that you'd normally not use at an 8v8 battle and having a different pvp approach altogether.

It's also more newb friendly. Arena play is fairly simple (especially at random arena), you can play alliance battles even if you're not good at pvp (you may cause some grief for your team but they're still fun and rewarding even if you lose) and the gvg matching system ensures that you play against people of about the same skill as you. That leaves HA which always was a bit intimidating for players new at pvp. Forming and coordinating an 8 man team is really hard if don't have a high rank or are part of a good guild. Some may argue that you shouldn't try HA untill you become better at pvp. Even if you do, the problem of forming a team remains (it's way easier getting 6 players than 8). Moreover it sounds a little elitistic to say "Don't come to HA unless you're good." Everybody should have a chance to participate, even if it means not getting past the first few maps.

Most people raise the issue that teams of 6 mostly utilise full offence or full defence builds. I also think that's a real problem especially after the introduction of Paragons. However I think the real issue is running a 6v6 HA with maps originaly designed for 8v8. Many people have suggested new maps or reworking of the existing ones and I agree. More ideas about maps in a while. About 6v6 I think it will shine if new maps that take into account the differences with 8v8 or 4v4 play and the different builds it may inspire, are introduced. It was refreshing to have a new type of pvp but just reducing the number of people on a team, while a good thing, is not enough imho to create a new pvp experience in the place of a tournament that has remained almost the same (ok there have been some major updates in the past but even the arena gets new maps whith different battle conditions) since the start of GW, more than a year ago.

Heroway Actually I was in favor of heroway. The argument was that a good full human team would never lose to a heroway (at least after some time to adjust to the heroway builds has passed) and if they did that would mean that the few players controlling the heroes were really good and deserved to win. However, the elimination of heroway is a small price to pay (for those of us who liked it -I played 3 man, 3 hero parties and didn't play more than a few hours a week so there are players who liked heroway but didn't abuse it) if a greater goal is served. That goal I think should be returning HA to it's old prestige. So I have no problem with eliminating heroway afterall.

New Maps I really liked some of the ideas mentioned here about new maps or modifications to the old ones. The general idea should be imho to have a greater variance of maps so that specialised builds can't cope so easily (afterall these are the kind of builds people complain mostly about like full defence teams or iway etc). If one wants to claim the Hall of Heroes she should be able to overcome a variety of different difficult situations. Some of the map ideas I liked:

Timed Annihilation: That would force some groups to rethink their build. I don't know about the double elimination bit but perhaps this could be made as a 3 team map and add some victory conditions if the time expires, like the one who controlls the most altars wins or any death after the time expires means that the team loses etc. Generaly this should be a map that involves some fierce combat so simply holding altars shouldn't be able to secure a victory. I second the idea of having two of these maps, one early and one later on with a bit different winning conditions (variance). The early one would serve to eliminate unworthy (in the eyes of Balthazar) teams while the later to test true combat prowess.

New ways to cap altars: The system to cap altars introduced at Factions (I think) depending on the members of the team standing near it could serve to make some altar capping maps more interesting. I don't support eliminating maps where the hero caps the altar but instead have two different types of altar capping maps. Perhaps there could be npcs around the map that you can claim and while not fight alongiside you, count as teamates while capping altars. That could create diverse tactics like either capping fast and getting morale bonus early or going for the npcs to have a better chance to win in the long run or even have some team members stay behind and make the altar capping process slower for the capping team (it is possible for 2-3 players to survive for a while versus a 6man team but not vs an 8 man I think).

Perhaps some special maps like one that both player teams are attacked by the shadow army of menzie and have to defeat them first or get some bonus if they do could also make for some interesting situations. Also, I don't know if it's possible but making the order of the maps somewhat random could serve to discourage teams that use builds able to survive to a certain map (like relics) and aim to go that far only to farm faim and faction.
One general suggestion is to make HA longer. Add more maps so that it takes dedication as well as skill to reach the high level maps. Reaching and wining a battle at Hall of Heroes should be a difficult but rewarding experience.

About the Hall of Heroes itself. There are some opinions that it shouldn't be an altar cap. I agree that a change could be meaningful but an altar cap used to represent one of the great challenges of HA so changing it for something mundane like an all out battle doesn't seem appropriate. I suggest keep it an altar capping map but with a few variations. For example, there could be three altars. One large one in the center like it is now and two more at different locations. Capping the main altar will grand victory if your oponents don't controll a lesser altar or controll one of the two. If, however, they controll both when the time expires and your team only controlls the main altar, they win. That should make altar holding strategy a bit more complex as you'll have to fend off attacks but also make sure opponents don't outsmart you by capping the peripheral altars. That should make holding the Hall more difficult like the good old times when european guilds would claw their way to 4 victories and 10 disctricts at the temple of the ages were getting ready to enter fow or uw only to be dissapointed at the loss of our champions.

We didn't get to see fow or uw much those days but they sure were fun.

Rewards Wining at HA (or tombs as it was) use to mean great prestige as well as great riches. Pvpers used to be the the richest people in gw with celestial sigils selling for about 80k. Nowadays the rich ones are the farmers (and although I'm a pver mostly I really think winning at HA needs -or should need- a lot more skill than farming and should be rewarded better) and everyone and their cat has a guildhall. The way the game has turned out that's not a bad thing. Afterall even pve guilds have use of guildhalls nowadays, they are needed for a lot more than just gvging. However, the celestial sigil reward is a bit dated. A rank 11 friend who used to give away hundreds of ectos for free (not to me sadly) now has even less money than I do (and I'm broke most of the time

). A new kind of reward should be introduced but I don't think rare drops is the answer. Afterall, guildhalls used to mean prestige and a better chance to attract more people to your guild so a reward that is tied to the guild somehow seems more appropriate. Here are a couple of ideas:
A new kind of sigil that lets you hire a special npc merchant for your guildhall that sells for example merchantise at lower prices (like when you command a city at Factions). You would have to pay his fee (in sigils not gold) periodically or he'd leave your guildhall. Another idea about a special npc for hire (one that I think would be extremely popular) would be a weaponcrafter that crafts weapons for a fee but with skins found nowhere else in the game. Again you'd have to pay his fee periodically or he'd abandon you. Imagine the hype about this new sigil among pvpers and pvers both. I can see the HA teeming with people

Another idea would be special sigils that let you unlock visual improvements for your guildhall, like trophies, or your cape. These would be permanent but would need a substantial amount of sigils. HA could be like the elite (in term of rewards) pvp area (like domain of anguish, the elite missions and fow and uw are for pve).

These were my thoughs. Of course I know that almost everything I suggest (other than keeping the 6v6) can't be implemented easily and quickly. Of course I don't expect Anet to fling it's magic wand and make everything perfect. These are changes that could take place over several months and Anet should take it's time. The issues with HA are greater, imho, than the simple matter 6v6 vs 8v8 and they need planning and proper execution, not just a quick fix. Afterall, Tombs of Primival Kings used to be one of the greatest pvp experiences and wining at Hall of Heroes a far greater prestige than waving around a fiery dragon sword (they were quite popular at that time).

tomcruisejr · Dec 22, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

6vs6 is better because there is no single build that beats all the other builds (yet). In effect, there is now a variety of builds being run by different groups. also, the supposed weakness of 6 man team because of the lack of other support characters can be patched by the actual "player skills" of the 6 man team. where as when HA was 8 vs 8, it's easy for everyone to make an ultra defense/ultra offense perfect builds that can theoretically win all other builds and make HA a stale pvp arena. players have told us that they can AFK or sleep while winning/holding HoH with an 8 man perfect holding build.

also, 6vs6 made HA a fast paced arena - battle wise (no more stalling) and party formation wise.

what really tainted 6 vs 6 were the heroes (i don't really mind heroes though). if heroes were prohibited when 6 vs 6 was newly implemented, no whines such as "6vs6 HA is pve" were posted here in forum. now it's hard to dissociate 6vs6 from heroway because of that.

8vs8 will be better if all maps are scrapped and reworked that it won't favor a single type of playstyle. but if you just revert to 8vs8 without map changes, expect the new players to play the tried and tested winning 8 vs 8 builds (FotMs), confining themselves to predetermined roles and once a tried and tested winning build starts to dominate everything, expect whines again to nerf nerf and nerf.

and last time i checked, Tombs was changed to 6vs6 to freshen things up coz most of the people were tired of seeing the same things all over and over again. the goal was achieved but some people who used to win in 8vs8 using a playstyle that requires 8 or 6 people to kill 1 target at a time and started to lose in 6vs6 are now complaining, making excuses such as lack of variety and other inane excuses, have quit but still playing their friend's account etc. now that it's 6vs6, i see new names that (and still old familiar ones) are popping out on the HoH global message. It means that HA is still played and comments like "No one plays HA now that it's 6vs6" are exaggerated. If you want something to change, please stand by it. reverting back aka flip flopping devalues one's credibility.

PS

A Suggestion for the Final Map of Heroes Ascent- All players, depending on the primary class, will have a generic skill bar and will do different objectives like of snowball arena (like what phoenixtech suggested), dodgeball, capping the flags and such. so only player skill counts. no more gay holding.

Cnegurozka · Dec 22, 2006, 09:53 AM // 09:53

This my quick review of the latest HA changes, just a few things, most of them probably said a hundred times. But they need to said quite a few times i think!

1) 8v8! No discussion about this ... happened like i thought: most good players left HA, builds became far more restricted etc.

2) The timer on Altar maps should be higher, its just to easy to hold 4 minutes in HoH, when at least the first 40 seconds will be lost for running to the middle and analysing the enemy teams. This goes for all 3 Altar maps. Maybe 6 minutes may be better.

3) 3 ppl on broken Tower again ROCKS.

4) I don't really understand why you removed burial grounds, but i can't say i miss it or am happy that is gone. Just don't really understand that. ^^

5) Keep HoH 3 teams, makes the match much more fair than before.

6) Having a limit on AI is a good thing, now they are an nice addition when its late and 1 or 2 ppl leave your group and you don't want to search new ppl again. But just play 1-2 rounds and then leave yourself.

7) The change to Scarred Earth is nice, it used to be the most hated map (in my guild at least, i guess that goes for most other ppl to). Now it's quite nice.

*) AkA the absolute special wish: Make a dying ghostly give you morale even if he dies from conditions or your ghostly. I realize this could be quite hard to implement as it's not easy to see who killed him in a 3 team situation (scarred earth). And make him give you morale if the enemy teams leaves or resigns, this is just lame! I don't know if you should get morale for killing the enemy team, you had the chance of getting him anyway...

Thats all for now, i guess. ^^
(playing GW since release, PvP since summer 2005, HA for about a year now)

Effendi Westland · Dec 22, 2006, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Keep 6v6. Although the 45 mins+ matches while you figure out a way to distract the strong 3 monk backline was fun, the speed of play is much better in 6v6.

Also forming for HA as it is now is alot quicker then when it was 8v8. Those who want to do HA for 2 hours don't stand a chance in 8v8 as it often takes 1 hour just to form, and with matches that can last very very long 8v8 doesn't work for these players.

God Apprentice · Dec 22, 2006, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Hi Gaile

Someone at HA had said you had a thread here, and after learning where it was (and seeing someone bad mouth you) I decided to come check it out

Thank you firstly for limiting the amount of Heroes in Heroes Ascent. As to further suggestions I would say:

Party Size at 8-This is probably the most argued about opinion when it comes to talking about HA. Having played since 8 on 8, and into the 6 v 6 change, I must say that a party of 6 limits teams severly. As stated by JR, teams now either gear towards more offensive, or more defensive, there really is not a lot in the way of middle ground ie: "balance groups". Some proffessions don't even get a lot of usage in the current format. Some people out there say "But if you bring back 8 on 8 IWAY, Bloodspike etc will come back". While this may be true, these people are seeming to forget that "Flavor of The Moment" builds are run, even now (SF anyone?). FotM builds will always exist.Always. I cannot stress that enough. The last point I would like to point out is that since the switch to 6, a lot of people have left the HA scene, either going to GvG, or other games.
Burial Grounds-This was a fun map to play, and I am not sure why you all took it out of rotation, it would also be wiser to make the second map an anhillation map, rather than an altar cap. When 1 player 5 Heroes were allowed many a time I saw people who seemed clueless that this map was about holding an altar, and not fighting.
Broken Tower, Scarred Earth, and Hall Of Heroes In my opinion Broken Tower has earned it's name as "broken' now, because it can quickly turn into a gankfest, the same applies to Scarred Earth, the lever doesn't give any incentive but to go in and gank a team while they are fighting another team, not all teams do it, but some do. If you are to switch back to a 8 party format you might want to consider changing the last map to how it was where you faced another team until beating them which lowered the bridge to allow access to the altar
HoH rewards-I think it would be better if everyone got a drop from the chest, and if the drops were a bit better

New maps While the current maps are ok, perhaps a few new maps would breath some fresh air into HA, plus you did add new maps to Random and Team Arenas, give some love to HA

Please do not reset fame though, I see no need for it

Burton2000 · Dec 22, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

1.Map Changes that are new and exciting and dont consist of adding a lever to one map and removing one. As people have already said TA/RA and GvG get new maps each campaign why doesn't HA?

2.8v8, with the multiple objectives of HA i believe 8 players is needed to make it balanced because it is generaly much harder to make a balanced build that can do all the things needed to suced in HA with 6v6. As it is now you either play super offensive or super defensive.

I think these 2 main things would bring back a lot of people who left. As it is now HA is empty.

supaet · Dec 22, 2006, 11:20 AM // 11:20

To those who support 6v6.
Ask yourself this. Have you ever seem two defensive builds in 6v6 fight each to death other for 30 minutes and then roll 100 to decide who win cause no one can kill. How about 8v8?

tomcruisejr · Dec 22, 2006, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaet

To those who support 6v6.
Ask yourself this. Have you ever seem two defensive builds in 6v6 fight each to death other for 30 minutes and then roll 100 to decide who win cause no one can kill. How about 8v8?

longest fight that i experienced was close to 22 minutes. the other team was like offering to /roll. but we figured out that were hitting the wrong targets. after we patched that, hit the right targets and little did we know we won and got 2 fame. that was in scarred earth.

Slawo · Dec 22, 2006, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Bring back 8v8 please .

It was good idea :

"The Zaishen Medallion collectable item was awarded to those succeeding in PvP during the Guild Wars Nightfall PvP Preview Event. The Zaishen Supply Masters in the Great Temple of Balthazar accepted them in exchange for other items.
(guildwiki)"

C2K · Dec 22, 2006, 12:22 PM // 12:22

6v6. People complain that 6v6 is full of holding builds, but 8v8 is worse. I rtemember Dual smite, there was also this spirit build holding team. My team was always unfortunate to go up ward holding teams on Broken Tower(basically came down to who capped first.

6v6 is fine. Fix the altar maps, that will fix the rift between all offense teams and all defense teams.

DreamWind · Dec 22, 2006, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaet

To those who support 6v6.
Ask yourself this. Have you ever seem two defensive builds in 6v6 fight each to death other for 30 minutes and then roll 100 to decide who win cause no one can kill. How about 8v8?

I saw it a lot, but it wasn't because of 6v6. It was because of broken paragons. It would have been even worse in 8v8. Since the paragon nerf I haven't played any excessively long games in HA (thankfully).

Rui · Dec 22, 2006, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

longest fight that i experienced was close to 22 minutes. the other team was like offering to /roll. but we figured out that were hitting the wrong targets. after we patched that, hit the right targets and little did we know we won and got 2 fame. that was in scarred earth.

actually i had many scarred hearth games of 40 and 60 minutes (which almost never happened to me when it was 8v8) untill someone fake err7 or roll... 6v6 is a joke, or you make a very defensive build or a very offensive build its hard to keep that balance between offensive and defensive. Plz bring back 8v8!

luilui · Dec 22, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03

6v6 has more holding team becoz it's impossible to hold with 2 monks which force players to go fully defensive (if they want to hold).

atm without any secondary healing/proting, 2 monk backline can not hold for longer than 1 min. where with 3 monk backline it's possible to hold for 1:30 then u can choose to bb the ghost and interrupt.

** It is stupid to limit the use of holding build by limiting the number of players in a team. The best way would be adding new map(s).

wren e · Dec 22, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

In my personal opinion, I feel that the change from 6v6 was a good move and should stay as it is. Let me share why I feel this way. It is quicker to form groups and is the bridge between TA and GvG for PvP. There are just as many different types of builds used now as there was when it was 8v8. The biggest problem was heroway was introduced at the same time and that really left a bad taste in the mouth of those old school HA players that were already not happy about the change if 6v6. 6v6 is easier for new players to get into as well as still requiring the same skill to succeed.

Maps. Need some more added and adjust existing ones to better work with the 6v6 format. The final map win condition should definitely be changed it promotes one style of play only. Instead of being the last time to hold it when time runs out, make it the first team to hold it for 2 min straight wins and remove the time limit. This would encourage more action throughout the match and not just waiting for the last few minutes.

Reward. Each person should get a drop when they win HoH, there is no reason why this should not happen. It takes everyone on the team to get there and everyone should get something. Also make the rewards not as random on what you recieve, so that way it is actually worth something. Also bring back the zaishen medallions, those things where great and even more uses could be introduced with them to make it viable for PvP only people to afford guild hall NPC's, guest invites, and other things without needing to PvE.

Noddy · Dec 22, 2006, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Well people say 6vs6 is more "noob" friendly, is more fast paced and all that but what a bout the experienced players who played 8vs8? Should they be forgoten, so all that matters is the newbies getting past the first 3 maps? If older ranked players are better at ha then they should be the ones getting to HoH, you shouldn't change a game balanced for 8vs8 competition just to give new players a bigger chance to succeded, when i started playing "Tombs" was hard but i dind't complained for things to change to make it easier for me.

dirtydutch · Dec 22, 2006, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Ofcourse im gonna say 8 VS 8 Any person who played with the 8 vs 8 season it whas allot funner. More builds in my point of view better balanced.

Reset fame will be retarded i still think rank 9 isnt hard to get. My point of view is simpel make a team. Copy copy from the good players look @ obs. The low ranked player should think off what they want:

A. Stay in the guild where you are in now and dont get much fame.
B. Or join a guild who plays Ha everyday.
C. If you cant find a Ha Guild "MAKE ONE".

putt a filter on the search system I dont want to see WTB blablabla when im looking for a group

New Maps I totally agree where playing the same maps about 18 months. I like the relic maps maybe you can think off more off those kind off games ^^

You guys just thought off the best pvp game ever GJ.

Bastian · Dec 22, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Gaile,

1. Keep 6v6. I enjoy seeing new builds and new strategies for HA. I feel that a lot of the people that left HA were people that only played Bloodspike or IWAY. I know a lot of people that continue to play HA because they enjoy the challenge of coming up with new builds. 6v6 has refreshed HA and we still have not seen the variety of builds that will be developed over time.

2. Keep it to 2 heroes or less. Heroway was rather annoying because, as has been stated, it was not a challenge. And PvP should be a challenge of skills amongst players, not amongst AI.

3. Additional rewards would be nice.

4. Map changes would be nice as well.