Curse

Loot Junkie · Mar 26, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

I've been playing GW for nearly 2 years and have invested most of my playing time on the pve side of things, but have also done enough pvp over the last 9 months to be a capable enough monk(R5), though I'm obviously not nearly as skilled as a hardcore gvg player.

The purpose of this post is to get input from you high level pvp monks out there on certain 5-energy prot skills that I still havent mastered the usage of. These are guardian, RoF, SoA, shielding hands. I've used most of these skills before but I don't know which ones should be on my skillbar, plus I dont know when they are the best skill to use and when they should not be used. An example of this is guardian - I didnt realize that irresistable blow and other similar warrior skills were punishing me for "blocking".

Another question I have regarding the above mentioned prot skills is; should they be combo'd with other monk skills? An example of this would be a pve solo farmer's use of prot spirit and SoA - are there effective prot combos that help me save my team mate from being spiked to death? Please bear in mind that my primary interest is RA/TA/HA and not gvg, looking forward to your input.

sgtclarity · Mar 27, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

RoF is generally used as a main heal as it can mean the difference between surviving a spike and dying. It's cheap, efficient and good for healing HP levels that don't quite necessitate the use of your bigger more expensive heals.

Guardian, SoA, Shielding Hands are all damage mitigation skills. They help you to avoid being "worked" by your opponents. "Working" your target is (my) way of describing the preparation for a spike. Sometimes monks or other targets get careless and allow damage to pass unhealed. For example, maybe a warrior simply saves his adrenaline and auto attacks a monk til about 80-85% hp. This isn't too much, so the monk might accidentally underestimate the warrior's burst potential (this is just an example though, because most monks are alert at the higher levels). Once the target has been "worked", the spike commences and will usually result in death. These skills are there to help you prevent yourself from becoming an easy spike target.

Generally, a good efficient way to stop a spike from following through is to toss out an RoF, and immediately follow up with a SoA. If the target is being hit multiple times in a short while (characteristic of a sin spike) the damage reduction can quickly add up to negate even the most powerful Elementalist nukes.

moriz · Mar 27, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

the one and possibly only rule with prot monks: they are at their best if you cast right before the hit lands. too early, and your opponent will go hit something else and you wasted your spell. too late, you might as well be playing a heal monk and simply push red bars up.

always be watching the playing field and be aware of opponent movement and skill usage. that's the best way to play a prot monk.

assassin of the god · Mar 27, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

step 1:load up a bar with a bunch of prots on it
step 2: monk without a party bar
step 3: learn how to use prot

there ya go, you can thank me later.

Relambrien · Mar 27, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

step 1:load up a bar with a bunch of prots on it
step 2: monk without a party bar
step 3: learn how to use prot

there ya go, you can thank me later.

Wow Budda you're on a blunt streak today aren't you?

What he means is this:

1) Bring a prot monk bar
2) Turn off your party bar and watch the match unfold in front of you, keeping actively focused on the action. Based on where the enemies are moving, click the guy you wanna prot and prot him. For instance, you see two Warriors heading toward an Ele on your team. Click the ele and hit Prot Spirit (or whatever). You couldn't do this if you were focused on your party bar since you wouldn't know where the enemy was moving.
3) This is essentially a crash-course in pre-protting. Learn it or die really.

moriz · Mar 27, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

don't listen to a word they said. playing without a party window is an absolutely horrible idea. it doesn't matter how good you are, you won't be able to keep people up for long without looking at the party window once in a while.

Bastian · Mar 27, 2007, 01:01 PM // 13:01

I play prot monk quite a bit - and I am definitely interested in what others have to say, but here is my theory on prot skills.

1. I kind of categorize them into 2 categories in my head: 1) Stop Pressure & 2) Stop Spikes

Stop Pressure
The kind of prot spells that (in my head) belong in this category are the ones you mentioned - guardian, shielding hands, shield of absorption, Aegis.

These spells are used mostly for stopping lots of small damage. Assassins are a good example. These are the kinds of skills you would want to use against a ranger spike for instance - or paragon pressure, because they will reduce the overall damage per hit.

If you are getting into HA - then I would stongly suggest SoA. Not only will it shut down a lot of melee trains - it is godly during the alter control maps.

Stop Spikes
The kind of prot spells in this category are Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit.

The spells are good for reducing large quantities of damage. Prot Spirit is awesome for Frenzied warriors extending into an enemies backline. Spirit Bond will stop a caster spike dead in its tracks if used in time (well except B-Spike). I still use Spirit Bond for BoA sins because it triggers on Blades of Steel - however, these skills are typically not going to be the best against things like ranger spike because they are not preventing a lot of small dame - they are preventing a lot of big damage.

Conclusion

I know this may have circumvented the original question - but basically, you need to determine how the enemy is going to take down a target and react accordingly. For instance - against IWay I would be spamming Aegis and SoA. Against something like a Eurospike (which involves casters - typically mesmers) I would be using Spirit Bond. A lot of people don't find guardian to be a useful skill, and I rarely bring shielding hands because of the recharge.

In HA I typically bring RC or Divert Hexes as my elite skill - and I run Aegis, Spirit Bond and SoA. However, everyone has their own opinion - and it is up to you to decide what is best vs. the meta and what you are comfortable running.

P.S. I didn't add Reversal of Fortune to the list because it is mandatory on any Prot Monk's skill bar.

Acidic Won · Mar 27, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

don't listen to a word they said. playing without a party window is an absolutely horrible idea. it doesn't matter how good you are, you won't be able to keep people up for long without looking at the party window once in a while.

What [Call] is saying is exactly what I would say. Learn to read the game and not make red bars go up. Once you understand how to read the damage then pre-protting is second nature. For instance if you are actively healing someone you may not notice the fact that Little Miss Sunshine, your monk partner, is about to take a Dev. chain hammer and a Evisc. axe to her face which is enough to kill without a prot. But had you been watching their main pressure/spike characters you would have known they would be about topped off on adrenaline, and were going to be spiking at any moment so watch for the pain train. Arena's I prefer SoA same as Ascent unless I want to run SH. I'm not a fan of guardian. In GvG SH is usually the right choice and some monks like guardian.

Byron · Mar 27, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

I would always stress the importance of experience.

It is also very dependant on the arena you are playing in. A monk who is used to playing top 100 GvG matches will laugh at the "stress" of infusing in HA.

The whole premise of protection spells is to keep a person alive: a character is 100% effective at 1 health and 0% effective at 0 health.

In general though, different prot should be used for different situations. Only experience can dictate which prots are most effective in whatever situation. Some are used to alleviate pressure while others are meant to serve as quick saves. RoF can do both of these things, and that's why just about every monk bar with spec into prot uses it. Spirit Bond would be a quick save, ideally protting before or during the spike. Shielding hands or SoA are moreso to alleviate pressure, reducing the amount of energy upkeep a monk needs to expend to keep a target alive.

Anyway, here's the protection monk meta skillbar for GvG as I see it:

RoF
condition removal
efficient heal (GoH, ZB)
Prot spirit/spirit bond
Pressure prot (SoA, Shielding Hands, Shield of Deflection)
Hex removal (Holy veil, purge, Divert)
Utility
Utility

Thomas.knbk · Mar 27, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The whole premise of protection spells is to keep a person alive: a character is 100% effective at 1 health and 0% effective at 0 health.

A warrior will only be 66% effective with 1 health because he won't use Frenzy.

Zui · Mar 27, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

don't listen to a word they said. playing without a party window is an absolutely horrible idea. it doesn't matter how good you are, you won't be able to keep people up for long without looking at the party window once in a while.

I don't think anyone suggested seriously playing without a party bar for matches that count, but it's a very valuable learning experience to play without your party window in formats that do not matter at all. Like Random Arenas.

yesitsrob · Mar 27, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Playing without party bar is a very good way to get good at monking. Obviously don't do it in serious gvgs. But it will teach you to observe whats going on better, you'll learn to pre-prot much more efficiently. Staring at red bars makes for bad monking.

Relambrien · Mar 27, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

A warrior will only be 66% effective with 1 health because he won't use Frenzy.

Definitions:
"Offensive character" - A character that directly hinders the other team in some fashion whether it be through shutdown, damage, or otherwise.

If anybody is doing anything at 1 HP that doesn't include self-survival (i.e. kiting), they're an idiot anyway. At 1 Health, ANY offensive character is going to be 0% effective because they better be focused on staying alive (except in the rare occasion something supersedes this. Like snaring monks to kill a Guild Lord). Unless they're something like a blinding surge ele against a Warrior with Rush, offensive procedures are not a good way to stay alive at 1 Health.

Byron · Mar 28, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

A warrior will only be 66% effective with 1 health because he won't use Frenzy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

If anybody is doing anything at 1 HP that doesn't include self-survival (i.e. kiting), they're an idiot anyway.

Perhaps I should have preceded that statement with "In theory..." A warrior is able to use frenzy at one health if he/she so chooses. The only thing stopping the warrior from doing it is his/her own personal discretion.

A better example might be a monk, who can RoF at one health, but not at 0.

chemmjr · Mar 28, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

I wouldn't turn the party bar off. instead what I did & still do is to...."hot key" the next teammate command to highlight them and look to see whos around them and make sure your in heal range of them. Often times you will see a melee running towards them and can react with the right spell. By what ever method you choose click on screen, click on partybar, or number pad..

This method forces you to look at your team on the battlefield while keeping track of condition/hex pressure on your team. due to party bar being visable.

Also once you get good at that, you can learn how to "cycle" through the oppenents and see what skills they are using and when.
Also while you cycle through those players be looking for their position, the direction they're facing, & who they're wanding (if its a caster) don't just look at their names or porfessions

imho the hardest skill to pre-prot with is SoA. Because of its cast, duration & recharge time, you almost have to predict who the pressure is going to be applied upon. I guess that's where the training tips I gave earlier come into play. OR jsut cast it on the dumbass running our of your healing range and hope you made the right call.

For instance, you cycled through their team and see an ele casting lighting orb, then you catch a warrior running to teammate number one (by cycling through your team)....pre-prot

of course its easier said than done and and impossible to do both at the same time so gl becomming a better monk.

red orc · Mar 28, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

At 1 hp, I dont see the reason not to use frenzy. So I will get double the damage, so what ?
If I'm at 1 hp and I get rof from my monk, then it make a difference and I'll cancl my frenzy. I'd rather be infuzed over rof thou. lol

TheOneMephisto · Mar 28, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

At 1 hp, I dont see the reason not to use frenzy. So I will get double the damage, so what ?
If I'm at 1 hp and I get rof from my monk, then it make a difference and I'll cancl my frenzy. I'd rather be infuzed over rof thou. lol

QFT. If you're at 1 health and you're still trying to kill something rather than running away trying to survive, go ahead and frenzy for those last 1-2 hits, it won't make a difference whether you die or not.

nightrunner · Mar 29, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

At 1 hp, I dont see the reason not to use frenzy.

The reason is that you should not be hitting Frenzy, you should be hitting Heal Sig.

Patccmoi · Mar 29, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

I think we should all agree that it was an example and he didn't truly mean that your offensive chars would be fighting at 1 hp. It's just true, in theory, that any char is POTENTIALLY fully efficient no matter their health, as long as they're alive. So it doesn't matter at all if your monks keep your party's health bars at 100% or 50% as long as nobody dies (ofc, this is much more likely to happen if the bars are kept nearer 100%, cause it's hard to save burst damage on chars already near death... but IF your monk could do it all the time, then there would be nothing wrong with keeping everyone's health low)

And no way i would use Heal Sig if i was at 1 health, omg teh -40 armor!!!111!

Div · Mar 29, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Playing without party bar is a very good way to get good at monking. Obviously don't do it in serious gvgs. But it will teach you to observe whats going on better, you'll learn to pre-prot much more efficiently. Staring at red bars makes for bad monking.

Damn, that's why I lose every single gvg and HA game I've played in for the past 6 months!