Curse

Byron · Mar 22, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

-Purge signet (loose almost always all energy)
-signet of disenchantment (loose all energy)
-Signet of humility
-leech signet
-keystone signet
-mantra of inscription (approximately -50% recharge rate)
-symbolic celerity (approximately 50% reduction in activation of signets)
-res signet (could put anything in here you like if you have need for other signets)

A nifty idea in a hex-heavy meta, but what happens against balanced teams or physical pressure builds? There are too many good mesmer elites to use keystone signet without a really good reason, imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

The 2 Derv + Mirgaine + Repears is so goddamn imba

Reapers is seeming incresingly imba, considering its damage over time value and amazing secondary effects. The recharge needs a hike or summink, especially with all the spammable hexes already out there. The other crap that hexway runs is counterable with good gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

On the subject of sig of humilty, don't use divert hexes, its trash

I disagree - a coordinated backline does very well with divert against hex pressure. Lets not forget that divert is a big heal as well. So, warrior 2 might call a hex stack. Monk a, with divert, would say, "don't heal 2." Monk b doesn't heal 2, conserving energy. Warrior is degened to 2/3 health, and recieves a divert. Now that warrior is clean and full health, ready to frenzy.

Patrick Smit · Mar 22, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

I guess it wil be less efective then a "standard" mesmer Byron, though u can still humiliate a couple of nasty elites, interupt at regular bases and disenchant. Purge could be used still for the occasional hexes that land, so leaving the monks to preserve their veils or energy for more usefull things., Maybe u could add draw conditions to the character. So from the midline he could keep the wars and others free from blind tho disenchant should be used sparingly if draw is going to be used a lot

. I think humility cast by this mesmer can be quite anoying if properly spread. Interupts on aegis chains or attunements will be valuable too, and if it got through u can still disenchant a target or 2 that need to be pressured. I agree though that he will besides humiliating elites of wars will not do much against melee pressure, you should likely more see this character as undermining the support for the melee pressure. In the end it's just an alternative for divert hexes so the monks can run something that is more usefull against many other opponents.

I don't know whether it will/can work, it is a completely different mindset compared to metagame mesmers, and i'm a gvg noob, just have some ideas. For others to try though, maybe u can even think of giving it another elite, but u will give away the advantage of the use of signets.

Thom Bangalter · Mar 22, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

I don't even think hexes are that problematic, it's really just a matter of the way maps are set up. I mean, they're very problematic, but not QUITE to the extent everyone has them cracked up to be.

I'm a big supporter of the thumbs up/thumbs down approach to maps, so both teams play on a map that they're willing to play on.

It also means I can thumbs down jade, corrupted, and frozen. those maps are dumb.

Yue · Mar 22, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

The problem with divert is when you're not factoring in fct/frt sets, you are not going to overpower hexes with removal. It costs alot of energy that you're essentially going to be using on recharge if you want to keep your guys clean. In addition, a competent hex team can easily shut down divert. Dwayna's kiss is by far the most efficient heal vs hexes. What makes hexes so ridiculous isn't even just the degen, but the face that aegis chains+price of failure+reckless haste+spirit of failure powers a migaine mesmer indefinitely, and makes it impossible for your physicals to dps anything. I don't believe that hexes by itself is that bad, but the way it works on jade and with glyph powered defense is the real problem.

And a good hex team will run it on jade, so don't go by the assumption that you might get lucky and get your own map. Hexes on Jade and it's interaction with glyph powered aegis is the real problem.

yesitsrob · Mar 22, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Hexes on Jade and it's interaction with glyph powered aegis is the real problem.

That probably sumarizes how I feel about it.

Hexes aren't commonly a problem build if you can split. The match is pretty much guarenteed to go to VoD. But they are significantly weaker at suck a stage.... with exception with the Mel's thing, because Melandru's Dervishes are pretty amazing at VoD. Keeping there forms down seems pretty key.

I do think that the best solution to hexes is tactics as opposed to mass removal which you are unlikely to keep on top of.

Thom there is nothing wrong with frozen don't be stupid.

Div · Mar 22, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

A nifty idea in a hex-heavy meta, but what happens against balanced teams or physical pressure builds? There are too many good mesmer elites to use keystone signet without a really good reason, imo.

I disagree - a coordinated backline does very well with divert against hex pressure. Lets not forget that divert is a big heal as well. So, warrior 2 might call a hex stack. Monk a, with divert, would say, "don't heal 2." Monk b doesn't heal 2, conserving energy. Warrior is degened to 2/3 health, and recieves a divert. Now that warrior is clean and full health, ready to frenzy.

ZOMG I can't believe you actually think that bar's a nifty idea...who in their right minds would run that in a gvg?

But yeah, I think the point of most people here is that they're saying that divert isn't the only way to beat out hex teams, and that there are possibly other better alternatives than that.

eoe · Mar 22, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

The standard balanced hex team is not that great of a problem. We have run two physicals (one splittable), burning, migraine, reapers, lod infuse w/ aegis, divert (or rc) monk w/ aegis, and zb runner for awhile. We have a perfectly viable sin, burning, zb split 5-3 split with the necro as the backup runner. We prefer not to run it on Jade or Burning because there is usually some other imba build that will roll us if we can't split them.

This balanced hex team is strong if you choose to fight them 7v7. It is especially strong in the meta where the only LOD/hp for a team is at the stand. Because the LOD is ez to dshot or migraine shutdown. At that point the hexes win. To beat the build, shutdown the necro (3 sec cast times, its not that hard), interupt aegis, keep your warriors clean (which is ez if u've done the job on the necro), and let your melee do the work. If the hex team gets ahead of you on applying hexes, give some ground, stabilize and re-engage. Good balanced builds can beat it straight up.

Another point I'd like to make is that divert is not needed to beat this team. In fact, we feel we have the best shot at winning against a divert/lod monk line. Divert is easy to shutdown either through humility or dshots. Diverse hex removals like one of the following: expel, a purge on a ranger or warrior, hexbreaker aria or a convert on an ele plus two veils and a single purge on the monks are much more effective simply because our two interupters need to be spread themselves over more characters.

If the opponent build adds a third hexer instead of the ranger, splitting becomes a much more viable option because the hex team has less split options.

The real frustration in my view with hexes is not the balanced build everyone seems to be QQ about. The imba hex build at the moment is some HA import run by hero factory. One reapers w/ sb, one n/mesmer illusion w/ ri, one scourge healing (and i think sv), four n/rit healers w/ spirits and icy veins and one oath shot. Broken is the nicest thing I can say about that build. It's retarded when forced to face it on jade.

Thom Bangalter · Mar 23, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

There's no such thing as a balanced hex team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yesitsrob

Thom there is nothing wrong with frozen don't be stupid.

sure there is. There's an inherent problem with getting to pick your map, especially in the current state of the game that encourages "Build Wars". Maps are, at this point in time, part of your build. It's why split teams run frozen and hex teams run jade.

The ice is part of the problem on frozen. No matter how mobile your build is or how actively it can respond, you can always just get a bull's charge/gale/water trident/etc on the ice, and it buys them at least another 8 seconds, more than enough time to kill the runner/a knight/an archer/the bodyguard. You pretty much HAVE to run a dedicated split on that map if you ever want to win on it. The problems are far more apparent because of shadow of haste and now recall, and NPC placement on the attacking side is pretty terrible for a team to try to keep up. Unless you have both teams play builds like their home map is frozen, it's pretty much a GG. It's not as problematic as say...Jade, but I wouldn't mind seeing a few tweaks to it.

Honestly, if they toned down sentinels just a bit more, I'd say burning is the most balanced map in the game. NPC placement is tight so it's easy to defend, but not so tight that a split can't do anything.

Farin · Mar 23, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

I find Frozen to be very close if not balanced.

Maybe it's because i've always liked that map, but I've seen good teams running a split build losing to other good teams running not-so-split builds on frozen.

JR · Mar 23, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim1

Hmm. Clueless?

Do you honestly think hexes are overpowered? The only issue I have with hex builds is when you face them on Jade. Other than that it's never seemed like a big deal just to outplay them.

Did acid run hexes Jim?

Cron0s · Mar 23, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

It's not about chosing Divert Hexes over ZB or SoD, but rather adapting to the curent metagame. For a while, the metagame was populated with many hexes, so divert hexes was pretty popular. But although DH is a good hex removal, you need to have in mind that good hex teams will have an way of shuting your remove hex skill.And that's why it's pretty pointless to put this elite on a prot monk, because eventualy it will be blocked by lets say signet of humility,and this way you have an eliteless monk, which tends to make a diference in games betwen good guilds.
Running an expel hexes on a diferent character, and purge signet on the monk,would be a better solution.
But in the end it's all up to the players and exploit the weakness of the adversary, taking down the shutdown mesmer, or the hex spammer, spliting etc...

Later Edit: Also consider that in the curent meta I saw a lot of condition degen teams, so better chose an RC monk

Patrick Smit · Mar 23, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

ZOMG I can't believe you actually think that bar's a nifty idea...who in their right minds would run that in a gvg?.

Ok you say that the bar of the proposed signet master "sucks", what are then your arguments against it. I have said what the bar is (potentially) good at, now u may argument against it. Just saying this sucks aint enough for me. I'm used that people discuss with arguments, not with unopinionated/unargumented judgements. I can live with (constructive) criticism though, it was just an idea, nothing that I will make a deep depression through if it just ain't good

.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 23, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Ok you say that the bar of the proposed signet master "sucks", what are then your arguments against it. I have said what the bar is (potentially) good at, now u may argument against it. Just saying this sucks aint enough for me. I'm used that people discuss with arguments, not with unopinionated/unargumented judgements. I can live with (constructive) criticism though, it was just an idea, nothing that I will make a deep depression through if it just ain't good

.

Well, the bar isn't very flexible. I mean, look at what you can do, you can throw out a lot of purge signets, do some interrupting (not as good as a ranger though), and remove a couple enchants. If you meet a team that you don't need a huge amount of purge sigs against (aka non-hex teams), you really aren't going to be doing that much, and a BA ranger or a MoR dom mesmer could be doing a LOT more. Something like an expel dom mesmer gives you some hex control while still being very useful in every game you play.

Patrick Smit · Mar 23, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Well, the bar isn't very flexible. I mean, look at what you can do, you can throw out a lot of purge signets, do some interrupting (not as good as a ranger though), and remove a couple enchants. If you meet a team that you don't need a huge amount of purge sigs against (aka non-hex teams), you really aren't going to be doing that much, and a BA ranger or a MoR dom mesmer could be doing a LOT more. Something like an expel dom mesmer gives you some hex control while still being very useful in every game you play.

I agree to most of it, though a ranger can't interupt reliably through the aegis metagame these days, and the 0.125 interupt is much mure reliable then a 0.625 seconds interupt of a ranger. A ranger could put out slightly more interupts tho and with the added benefit of additional penalty on recharge. Humiliation is still a powerfull tool, not all builds rely on elites, but if u have much problem with that water trident for example then u can diasable it permanently, u see a ranger do that? no, i guess not. But I agree that a current metagame mesmer may be more of help getting someone down in direct ways, which is maybe more important (I already stated that above when i described the bar). Though shutting down elites of monks (LOD or deflection/healers boon) may be undermining their team quite a bit too. I would say think out of the box, and stray away from the "ordinary" mesmer. if u imagine a different role for him u might be able to pressure the opposing team too.

I do not say it is a perfect build, nor is it very lousy, what what is often the problem with metagames or any kind of "stable" situation, is that people become dogmatic in their approaches, and are unable to be creative due current dogma's

Diversion for example is a very powerfull tool, and I can understand that most players do not want to part with it, but its only one way to achieve the goal Whether a BA/AP ranger is really worth more? In a split, yes, i guess so that he will shine, but at the stand where a draw conditions person is active, he will not contribute significantly, except with interupts, which are less reliable then the mesmers one. Expel is ok, but i might rather have MoR and remove/smite hex, giving an advantage to other spells recharges as well. Well enough of it. I appreciate your argumented opinion.

some guy · Mar 23, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

DH is fairly good against hex heavy teams, but in HA ZB is more useful. In most situations, a good heal pop can save the entire team, and from my experiences in HA, there are not a lot of hexes to use in HA.

On the other hand, DH is extremely useful in GvG. A lot of teams will have anti melee and anti caster hexers.

So the bottom line is; ZB in HA; DH in GvG.

Byron · Mar 23, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cron0s

It's not about chosing Divert Hexes over ZB or SoD, but rather adapting to the curent metagame.

I tend to agree, at least generally, with that statement.

There are too many skills and skill combinations for the meta to stabilize as it did back in prophecies. It seems nearly impossible for a team to sufficiently prepare for all the potential builds that it could face. Even the best teams in GW could get rolled by some new gimmick. GvG wasn't always that way; you'd have teams like iB and EvIL go 100 wins with one or two losses, likely due to err 7s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

I do not say it is a perfect build, nor is it very lousy, what what is often the problem with metagames or any kind of "stable" situation, is that people become dogmatic in their approaches, and are unable to be creative due current dogma's

Not at all. It's just that your build pretty much releases the strongest use of a mesmer, being offensive subversion. A shatter is twice as offensively useful as a non-damaging enchant removal, for example. The same for power leak over leech signet, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eoe

If the opponent build adds a third hexer instead of the ranger, splitting becomes a much more viable option because the hex team has less split options

That's all well and good until they are on jade isle or some other scrubby map.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Did acid run hexes Jim?

Finland is Winland.

OneArmedScissor · Mar 25, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

There are too many skills and skill combinations for the meta to stabilize as it did back in prophecies. It seems nearly impossible for a team to sufficiently prepare for all the potential builds that it could face. Even the best teams in GW could get rolled by some new gimmick. GvG wasn't always that way; you'd have teams like iB and EvIL go 100 wins with one or two losses, likely due to err 7s.

I agree as well. This leads one to think, why hasn't Blessed Light become more popular in recent times? Granted, it does not remove 3 hexes like Divert Hexes, but it is not a conditional elite. Moreover, it does not remove all conditions, but, again, it is not a conditional elite.

Which leads to a greater question, does one specialize or go all-around/jack of all trades?

Thom Bangalter · Mar 25, 2007, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

I find Frozen to be very close if not balanced.

Maybe it's because i've always liked that map, but I've seen good teams running a split build losing to other good teams running not-so-split builds on frozen.

if you run frozen, how do you run a hex build?

Farin · Mar 25, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

The same way you do it on any other map? A decent hex build is able to split at least 2 characters. Any hex build can go 4-4 and attempt to outplay it's opponent, butt then again it doesn't matter since you can just put 10 hexes on each character and roll them in 2 minutes. Unless you face a pure split build hexes can deal with normal splits just fine (in my experience that is).

yesitsrob · Mar 25, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Seriously with frozen. Your build doesn't have to be the best of splitting builds to have a chance, it's pretty open, and good collapses etc can win you the match. recall isn't even that great on it, and even then the problem is recall. druids is ok if not for recall. it's a skill balance issue though...

I can't really think of many maps more balanced than Frozen. it's the one map where you tend to see good strategical play prevail and not necesarilly dedicated split builds.