Curse

Divineshadows · Apr 05, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dana Hawkeye

Its not about whether they have broken any rules or not, its about morals. It is NOT morally right to sell memberships to any Guilds, let alone a 'Notabale Guild'.

That's idiotic. Next you're going to tell us that bluffing at a poker game is morally objectionable.

Empedocles · Apr 05, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dana Hawkeye

As for morals, if you dont have morals in a game like this, then you obviously dont have any morals in real life.

Flawless logic.

I used to kill people with an axe in a game like this (quite immorally too).

Arkantos · Apr 05, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Its not about whether they have broken any rules or not, its about morals. It is NOT morally right to sell memberships to any Guilds, let alone a 'Notabale Guild'. Have you notable Guilds who have done this, no shame?

Too bad ANet doesn't ban people for doing something not "morally right".

Star Gazer · Apr 05, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

someone please close this thread. It hass turned from a discussion, to the arguements of 12 year olds o.o

Mohnzh · Apr 05, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Why is everyone talking about scams and morals and whatnot? This is all totally off-topic. The point the TC was making, in my understanding, is a point trying to protect the GUILD, not the person buying the membership. He was pointing out that it takes a lot of hard work to become a top-ranked guild, and some of those guilds take a lot of pride in it. They exist as groups/guilds in more areas than just guild wars and are very loyal to each other and their group. Yet some high-ranked guilds are selling memberships. Because of that, not everyone claiming to be a high-ranked guildy deserves respect. They did nothing to earn their rank. those people are not the issue. The issue is that because those people exist, the guilds that DID put a lot of work into their rank and DO put a lot of pride in it and would NEVER sell a membership because of that pride are getting a lot less respect because people can just assume that their hard work was not earned, but bought. The TC's question was addressed to the eliters that take a lot of pride in what they've accomplished. The question is essentially this:

"You eliters, I have a lot of respect for you. But how do you feel about the disrespect that is headed your way because of other eliters selling their status?"

[DE] · Apr 05, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dana Hawkeye

Its not about whether they have broken any rules or not, its about morals. It is NOT morally right to sell memberships to any Guilds, let alone a 'Notabale Guild'. Have you notable Guilds who have done this, no shame?

Play to win. Play to get rich. Whatever. There are no "in-game morales" in any game. You play to get ahead. If it's not against the EULA rules than it's not wrong to do.

Edit: http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm

Superdarth · Apr 05, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Play to win. Play to get rich. Whatever. There are no "in-game morales" in any game. You play to get ahead. If it's not against the EULA rules than it's not wrong to do.

Edit: http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm

That depends.

There are most certainly in-game morales, and if you do sompthing morally whrong you would certainly get scorned.

Many will despise a guild selling invites because they are suffering from delusions of grandeur, if you dont care about what other people think and only care about making money (About the stupidest attitude one can have in a massive MULTIPLAYER online roleplaying game) Then sure go ahead, you wont get punished.

If you do care its not a very bright idea.

I think this is enough to end the discussion wich is, indeed, turning into a flame war.

elektra_lucia · Apr 05, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I think I'd hate to lose respect from someone. Like, really cry you know?

Quote:

As for morals, if you dont have morals in a game like this, then you obviously dont have any morals in real life.

You might be right. Infact, I'd say I'm the same in real life. Can't say I'd care too much if I saw someone being hit by a chaos axe by a man in some frenzy. Your point though? Just for sake of argument. You are totally correct. Do you think someone would care about what say 10 people thought out of the 6 billion people on this world?

From my knowledge you gain respect from someone understanding you. If they don't understand you, they couldn't respect you to begin with; therefore, it'd be kind of logical to state that you can't really lose respect.

You clearly never knew these people to begin with, because if you did you would of _NEVER_ acted surprised.

I can't say I can morally look up to anyone, infact I consider most people trash. The point being is, I can respect them for being a good player but that's all I'll respect them for. I do not lose respect if they sell a guild invite, they're still a good player.

The only thing I would consider is that the person buying it is weak and powerless. I would not lose respect for them either, because such a person would not gain my respect to begin with; therefore, it is my opinion that you are extremely stupid/naive if you have respected or looked up to anyone and later had a shock that they were selling an invite.

Conclusion? You should be looking at your own faults.

P.S. Nice is nice but there's no point doing nice.

Mohnzh · Apr 05, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Still missing the point. The topic was not created to talk about the respect that the TC or anyone else has, but to ask a question addressed to the people in high ranked guilds. Nothing to do with morals, or whether or not an individual does or does not respect them for their achievements, but what do THEY feel about it.

elektra_lucia · Apr 05, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Still missing the point.

Wrong.

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Nothing to do with morals

Wrong.

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whether or not an individual does or does not respect them for their achievements

Wrong. Look at topic title. It mentions losing respect.

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I use to respect alot of guilds, for alot of reasons...

1 of those reasons being Guild Ladder Rank and such... you see people running around from certain tags, and have capes with special borders..

Untill the latest.....

Not saying any names, but ive noticed 2 guilds both in Kamaden spamming the following...

SELLING GUILD INVITE TO SILVER (or such color) BORDERED CAPE GUILD... 10K EACH....

So, they send invite, then they kick person 10 mins later.... i mean, ya, they earned the cape, or their guildies did... but does anyone else feel that that is giving other high ranked guilds a bad name, the ladder deserves respect, and all guilds should respect themselves and such as well as other guilds...

This posting is probably in the wrong area... but i honestly feel that it is geared more toward the PVPer then anyone in any other area, and i wanted as many pvpers to see it, because i would love to see their inputs.... because they all get the bad wrap for a few ppl, and i would guess that they read threads here more then anywhere else....

And... new member to guild... never played pvp day in is life, gets into argument... what do u think first thing he will pull.... "look at my guild cape"... then, he gets put in his place, either verbal or fighting... that reflect bad on his guild, other guilds, and the entire guild ladder...

How can you put a price on your honor? Not just the honor you have "earned" by winning such a reward, but the honor of those you have beaten?

First post, read it perhaps?

First bit of bold text, he's implied he is losing respect yet if the guild keeps its core members - the rank isn't going to change much; therefore, I haven't gone off topic in my previous post.

Second bit of bold - my point, people don't care. Sure they might say they do but they don't really.

Next bit of bold - point repeated, they don't care.
Honor is in line with morals.

If you respect someone for being 'good' then your respect for them should not change because they made money from the reward they got (fancy cape).

If you respect someone good for having morals and being a good person only to discover they wern't who you thought they were. You are a fool and naive.

Quote:

but to ask a question addressed to the people in high ranked guilds.

Wrong. Do you even read? Seriously, wow, just wow.

Here:

Quote:

and i wanted as many pvpers to see it, because i would love to see their inputs....

It was PVP'ers in general, not just PVP'ers in high ranked guilds. Sure his English isn't great (what do you expect from someone making a whine thread?) but it's clear enough for you to understand surely? Apparently not. Anyway, as the thread was for PVP'ers in general to discuss their thoughts on this. Someone else brought up morals too and that's his perogative.

Gosu · Apr 05, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Just "out" the guild that are doing it I hate all this "oh a certain silver border caped guild" is doing this or the "oh a certain uber player is doing that". Just out them so we all know who they are.

I am sure they won't care, seeing as they don't mind doing it openly In game.

Mohnzh · Apr 05, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Elektra, the original post is where I am trying to point people. Read the TC's questions that you emboldened. you quoted him saying "How can you put a price on your honor?" Who else can "you" refer to except those who have worked hard to earn the titles they have (ie. people in high-ranked guilds)? That is the exact question I am trying to point people to. Yes, he wants all PvPers input, but his primary questions are addressed to those whose reputation is affected. Again, what you emboldened was the question, "Does anyone feel like this is giving other high-ranked guilds a bad name?" The TC did not want to see honorable, dedicated guilds lose their credibility because high-ranked guilds were just something you could "purchase". Yes, the TC mentioned respect, as did I. But his concern was not the level of his or any of our respect, but for the cheapening of the prestige that so many have worked for. I think he has a very valid and interesting concern, but only those who are a part of those high-ranked guilds can say whether or not it bothers them. If it doesn't, it won't bother him (or me). But if it does bother those that worked for it, MAYBE (not necessarily) something should be done. All I am trying to do is get people talking about the issue the TC was addressing rather than talking about whether it is morally acceptable, or scamming, or what people think of people that do that stuff. Selling guild memberships affects only a handful of highly skilled players, and not very significantly at that. It only affects the prestige they have worked for. Only their opinion on the matter is worth anything. Please understand, I am not trying to flame, or troll, or anything of the sort. I just feel like this thread has moved away from what the poster originally intended. Hopefully this discussion has redirected it.

max gladius · Apr 05, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Thank both of u for bringing this back on track.... i am not trying to make it a scamming or moral debate... for some ppl morals and honor run hand in hand, others it doesnt...

It could however be considered a scam if the seller doesnt tell the buyer that he is only paying for a certain amount of time in the guild.... because that is very misleading.... yes, i am saying it is the sellers responsibility to tell the buyer of such things......

The point of the post however, that i intended, was to find out ppls feeling about guilds selling membership to high rank guilds, just because that person can pay that amount....

Personaly, the cape trim is equal to their honor, and being proud of their accomplishments.... I have more respect for rank 200 guild, then i do for Team Everfrost (selling 1 month / 100k) no use of alliance chat, talking to officers, blah blah blah) *admited on this thread*

Personaly I think someone who holds themselves to a high enough lvl and treasures their hard earned "honor" enough to not put a price tag on it is a better person and player....

At the same time... Esoteric Warriors and everyone else who got lower places on the tournament are on that same ladder.... so, if ppl loose respect for the top spot on tournament, they are almost forced to loose respect to the rest of the spots.... Therefore Their actions are not only affecting the way ppl look at their guild, but the rest of the guilds there also.....

It quickly turns the Guild Ladder into a money making scheme for some guilds, and punishes other guilds that are there for just fun... I know there are alot of high ranked guilds that play to play... well soon, if not already, guilds are going to be playing to get paid...
Example:
12 ppl who r on 12 different guilds, all are good players, but the rest of their guild are not the best, well they all decide to team up just for tournament because they think they can win the tournament, sell invites to the guild, then sell the guild and go back to their old guilds.... there fore, spend 2 months in a guild, make 10 million each, and that guild, gold cape and all, mean nothing, yet 2nd place who is a guild of coworkers, just got second...

That is how u affect everyone and that is why i started this post.... i am going to link this from my origional posting.....

Nilator · Apr 06, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I saw a guild during the HA weekend doing this, 250k per invite. Also heard they were kicking also. This is just disrespectful. If you/your guild earned something, it should be for the members that were in that guild when it happened, not before, not after.

elektra_lucia · Apr 06, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Mohnzh :

I never said you were flaming, so please don't go off topic by bringing it up. I was simply commenting on the fact you were wrong.

Quote:

i am not trying to make it a scamming or moral debate... for some ppl morals and honor run hand in hand, others it doesnt...

I've infact some what tried to defend your english here but in this case I simply can not. It's not about what some people think, and what others don't. You used the word honor. Yes moral, and honor are linked. Look yourself please :

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/moral

You should have done that to begin with, making your own little language makes things a big confusion.

Quote:

It could however be considered a scam if the seller doesnt tell the buyer that he is only paying for a certain amount of time in the guild.... because that is very misleading.... yes, i am saying it is the sellers responsibility to tell the buyer of such things......

You said you are not trying to make this a scamming debate, you've now debated it though. Some what of a contradiction but hey...

Quote:

Personaly, the cape trim is equal to their honor, and being proud of their accomplishments.... I have more respect for rank 200 guild, then i do for Team Everfrost (selling 1 month / 100k) no use of alliance chat, talking to officers, blah blah blah) *admited on this thread*

Look up the word respect please.

Quote:

Personaly I think someone who holds themselves to a high enough lvl and treasures their hard earned "honor" enough to not put a price tag on it is a better person and player....

They arn't selling an invite to play gvg's, they're selling an invite to look pretty. As you've got a screwed perception of the whole deal, it's no wonder you come to dodgy conclusions.

Quote:

It quickly turns the Guild Ladder into a money making scheme for some guilds, and punishes other guilds that are there for just fun... I know there are alot of high ranked guilds that play to play... well soon, if not already, guilds are going to be playing to get paid...

Heh, who knows. Might end up like football - tell me, will you be saying that you've lost respect for them too?

.

Quote:

That is how u affect everyone and that is why i started this post.... i am going to link this from my origional posting.....

I take it you mean edit your original post? That'll just confuse things.

P.S. Players don't lose skill from selling a guild invite. If you respected them for being a good player, the respect remains. If you respected them for being decent people - you were a fool.

Machinae · Apr 06, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by max gladius

Personaly, the cape trim is equal to their honor, and being proud of their accomplishments.... I have more respect for rank 200 guild, then i do for Team Everfrost (selling 1 month / 100k) no use of alliance chat, talking to officers, blah blah blah) *admited on this thread*

I agree. Having seen people doing this sickens me - I thought it was a scam at first, then figured it'd be impossible to fake the trim/tag. I mean, only 100k/month? That's ridiculous!

If people are willing to pay it, someone is going to supply it. Sure, I'd rather be in a guild where I can actually talk to people, but that's opinion and eF officers and the people who buy invites are entitled to their own.

max gladius · Apr 06, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I've infact some what tried to defend your english here but in this case I simply can not. It's not about what some people think, and what others don't. You used the word honor. Yes moral, and honor are linked. Look yourself please :

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/moral

You should have done that to begin with, making your own little language makes things a big confusion.

Right from your little link
Moral: of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong
Honor:a source of credit or distinction; high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank

Quote:

Look up the word respect please.

Respect:esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability; to show regard or consideration for; to relate or have reference to

And my "english" as you call it, i dont care to worry about every word i spell or such, i get my point across....

Maybe you should have looked up a few things before you started trolling on this subject

elektra_lucia · Apr 06, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honor

–noun 1. honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.

high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moral

morals, principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.

There is obviously more than one meaning to one word; however, I figured you'd be bright enough to see the link.

Quote:

Respect:esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability; to show regard or consideration for; to relate or have reference to

If you were never in a top guild, you wouldn't be able to relate to their behaviour. Would you? If however, you related to their kind personality - then you should of head your head examined

.

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And my "english" as you call it

As I call it? What's that supposed to mean? Do you expect me to say French?

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i dont care to worry about every word i spell or such, i get my point across....

That was why I defended you earlier; however, this time it seems like you don't know what you're talking about. I never mentioned spelling either. I was merely commenting on the fact you did not understand the words you were saying.

Quote:

Maybe you should have looked up a few things before you started trolling on this subject

I wasn't trolling.

My personal views is that this should be against the EULA or something; however, in no way did I look up to these people or anything. Sure they are skilled players but that's all. That is the point I'm trying to make. They're still skilled at the game, they're still d*ckheads

. Nothing changed.

Malice Black · Apr 06, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

I don't like it, I don't agree with it but it's not my money, so I don't care all that much.

If these people wish to waste their money to have some gold on a cape more power to them.

However, any posts selling invites in Ventari will be closed. I'd only have to end up warning people for non-bids so I cut my workload by not allowing the thread in to begin with.

Isis_In_De_Nile · Apr 06, 2007, 06:54 AM // 06:54

A scam is a scam is a scam. It's douchery, plain and simple. There is no justification.