Curse

Surena · Mar 28, 2007, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Why are many (hammer) warriors using Flail now instead of Frenzy (I've been away since later summer 06).

We all know that Frenzy gives double damage so you need to cancel it properly with the small advantage of getting a bit more battlefield-awareness (arms go up, ROB!).

Now flail, once activated, removes one adrenaline from your attack skills and requires you to hit one time to start your chain - let's say Flail -> Normal Hit -> Dev -> Crush -> Fierce. Now you could alternatively start with Dev/BB and follow up with Flail because the following Crushing Blow is an energy attack, but both offer you a delay which I do not find advantageous, not to forget the speed malus.

Why would you take that disadvantage while frenzy can be used immediately?

suiraCLAW · Mar 28, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Please keep in mind that if you activate a IAS stanc right after a hit, the next hit will strike exactly after 3 seconds. In other words: if you use a KD -> IAS -> crushing blow -> second KD is perfect since your target should be up right before your third attack lands (the KD). But keep in mind that such a 6 sec KD is way harder than it sounds.

qvtkc · Mar 28, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

Why would you take that disadvantage while frenzy can be used immediately?

Because you don't need to cancel Flail even if you come under attack. As you say Crushing is an energy attack so why not use Flail. Also, hammer is already energy intensive to use (Power Attack, Protector's Strike, both has a 3 second recharge).

Patrick Smit · Mar 28, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Please keep in mind that if you activate a IAS stanc right after a hit, the next hit will strike exactly after 3 seconds. In other words: if you use a KD -> IAS -> crushing blow -> second KD is perfect since your target should be up right before your third attack lands (the KD). But keep in mind that such a 6 sec KD is way harder than it sounds.

Are u sure on this?

I always found that if I use devastating hammer as first KD with IAS followed by any blow and then again a KD fails because the target is still knocked down. Now activating the IAS before the second attack starts would result (technically in the same problem. activating IAS during the second attack would still result in a KD missing after the 2.76 seconds it hits. I tested this in the isle, IAS is just not working well with 3 seconds KD chaining. The only thing IAS may be working well with is backbreaker, as u can land three blows then (in practice he just gets up at the third blow, because a third blow with KD doesnt knock him down), and a fourth hit (another KD) may be pushed after the chain.

Here a list of what works and what not, the time between brackets is the tiome the second KD lands after the character has stood up. If it is negative then the charcter wasn't on his feet yet.

2 seconds KD and IAS does work when one hit is in between (+0.33 sec)
2 seconds KD no IAS does work when one hit is in bewteen (+1.50 sec)
3 seconds KD and IAS doesnt work when only one hit in between (-0.67 sec)
3 seconds KD no IAS does work with one hit in between (+0.50 sec)
3 seconds KD and IAS works well with 2 hits in between (+0.50 sec)
4 seconds KD and IAS does not work with 2 hits in between (-0.50)
4 seconds KD and IAS works with 3 hits in between (+0.66)
4 seconds KD no IAS works with 2 hits in between (+1.25)

flail can be used well with backbreaker as u can land three hits without the target moving after applying the KD, get in one normal hit, activate flail, use 2 attack skills.

I am not sure on how flail was/is used, but i guess when people us e snares on target or the or the hammer shadow steps to target it will work wonders.

edited as time used to calculate was wrong. though the succes or failure of chains remained the same

Xenex Xclame · Mar 28, 2007, 11:16 AM // 11:16

It does work, just let the target get up and slam them to ground again, at least thats what i do.

Patrick Smit · Mar 28, 2007, 11:29 AM // 11:29

That a solution too yeah, but u "waste" time (3/4 of a sec). A nice combo is easier and more profitable than a workaround, but maybe if the bar doesn't allow that freedom, then your option is a good alternative, I guess.

Greedy Gus · Mar 28, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

You can activate it immediately after Dev hammer / backbreaker / earthshaker, so it's not really disadvantageous in regard to speed. It's just a safer option, but it only really works on hammer because they can't kite while you unload and crushing blow is energy based.

yesitsrob · Mar 28, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

My problem with flail is I personally fail at 6 second knocklocks with it (perfect ones I mean).

With frenzy I find it pretty simply to time it so the 2nd knockdown is pretty much the instant they stand up, I cannot do this with flail. Actually, I ain't even took the time out to check if it's possible... In conclusion just run eurohex or searing flames spike.

Blame the Monks · Mar 28, 2007, 01:11 PM // 13:11

The main reasons I see flail used is because hammers tend to have eman problems.

jktstance · Mar 28, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

A combo I found nice for a 7-second knockdown with no time for the target to cast in between is Backbreaker - Crushing Blow - Protector's Strike - Hammer Bash. This is done without IAS, so the spike potential isn't too great, but it's good pressure. Hammer Bash hits right when the target gets up, so even a RoF cannot be cast. There seems to be a 10-15% chance that Hammer Bash will fail to KD, but it seems pretty solid regardless.

Patrick Smit · Mar 28, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

You can copy this missing hammer bash on the training isle? Or is it some in game mechanic/bug that causes u to miss?

skillsbas8 · Mar 28, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

its no bug. the KD time includes the time it takes them to get up. if you KD them again when they appear to be standing, the majority of the time the previous KD is still in effect, and because there is nothing that entails double KD, the hammer bash does nothing.

Patrick Smit · Mar 29, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

That can't be the reason as all his attacks will have a length of 1.75 seconds, so Hammer bash will land exactly at 5.25 seconds, and the target should be up and have slightly moved away, or starting to cast something. I find it strange they cant finish casting something, they should be up forr more than a second so they should have fired something. (KD+1.75+1.75+1.75=5.25)

Either there is an in game mechanic that makes him miss, there is a bug or attacks sometimes go faster (which I consider a bug as well

). Another reason may be that one of the attack is canceled due chaining too fast and therfore hammer bash lands at 3.5 seconds. But u should see that as the energy skills wont recharge then.

suiraCLAW · Mar 29, 2007, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Try waiting with activate crushing blow a bit after devastating hammer hit (you should have started a normal swing when you activate it, that way you'll have an extra delay of +-.20 sec).

Basically it's like: KD + 1.75 sec + ~0.20 for using crushing blow too late + crushing blow + 1.15 (since IAS was activated before crushing blow) + hammer bash.

Still, since most people want a hammer with devastating hammer -> crushing blow -> fierce chain, it isn't really important anymore to know this.

BTW: you can get the same delay by activating hammer bash a bit too late.

yesitsrob · Mar 29, 2007, 09:27 AM // 09:27

well you can do the devastating after a bull's strike too. I'm personally not a fan of running a hammer warrior without 2 KD's

fenix · Mar 29, 2007, 10:10 AM // 10:10

The reason is so:

Backbreaker (best example) charges with 10 Adren. By the time it's charged, Flail will be charged, easily. Using an adren skill takes 1 strike away from other skills, but using an attack GAINS a strike. Using Backbreaker counts as 1 strike, so Flail will be re-charged when you hit with Backbreaker. This means that you can do the following:

Backbreaker > Flail > Crushing > Power Attack > Bulls Strike

Alternatively you can put Hammer Bash where Bulls Strike is, for long KD. The advantage being thus. Our current Backbreaker build is:

Backbreaker, Crushing Blow, Power Attack, Bulls Strike, Flail, Rush, Enraging Charge, Res Sig

This means that there are 3 energy attacks, plus Enraging Charge. This can be very tricky on energy if you are a hammer warrior, as you won't be using Gladiator Armor, but rather the +hp armor (generally). Rather than have Frenzy, and have a 5th energy skill, you can use Flail. Flail will be charged for the Backbreaker combo, and the cover-stance Rush, will also be charged, so you will be easily able to do the IAS without dying or being hindered. Also, there are only 3 Adren skills in the bar, and since Backbreaker is the main attack, you won't need to worry about not having Flail and Rush charged.

There's also the fact that the 25% slower (or 33%?) aspect of Flail won't matter when the person is KD'd for 4-7 seconds in a row :P

twicky_kid · Mar 30, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

When NF came out I always knew Flail would find its way into pvp.

Also keep in mind that hammer doesn't carry a sheild so they have less overall armor than axe or sword. With frenzy doubling the dmg you take that much more dmg with a hammer.

I played hammer was for a very long time in GvG. The main problem is when you spike you are more likely to be targeted to get you during frenzy because you take more dmg than your axe or sword partner. Being able to do the same job as frenzy and not be as easy to kill during your own spike is a much better option.

Surena · Mar 30, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

I started to like it. Wouldn't recommend it for the other weapon classes.

Patrick Smit · Mar 30, 2007, 09:13 AM // 09:13

you could use BoA too, if u use a loose all adrenaline attack in the end of the chain than BoA is not so bad. But u stay mobile.

ss1986v2 · Mar 30, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

you could use BoA too, if u use a loose all adrenaline attack in the end of the chain than BoA is not so bad. But u stay mobile.

yup, if you have say hammer bash at the end of your chain, BoA isnt so bad. you lose the ability to use your IAS to help build adren faster from time to time, but not a huge loss overall.

but yeah, i did the same double take when i first saw warriors using flail over frenzy. that is until i noticed that 95% of them where hammer warriors.