Curse

Alleji · Feb 16, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

I just realized how dumb Izzy is.

All I had to do was look at the two skills side-by-side:

[skill]Obsidian Flame[/skill] [skill]Lamentation[/skill]

If somebody can explain the throught process behind this, please do. Because to me, it looks like Anet thinks that ob flame in 1/4s and without exhaustion is perfectly ok because it recharges in 20 seconds.

Let's change all instances of "in the area of a spirit" to "within earshot of a spirit" and not read what the skill does after we do it!

EDIT: Apparently, the descriptions/stats here aren't updated. See wiki: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lamentation

Red_Dragon56 · Feb 16, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

That 20 seconds you can easily gain back that 82 damage though. Plus the conditions. It doesn't look too overpowered to me.

Riotgear · Feb 16, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

The conditions are nothing. Rit spike generally saturates the map with spirits, so the conditions are met by the simple fact that, sooner or later, the other teams have to advance on an objective with spirits parked on it. It's also EARSHOT RANGE, which is huge.

You also have to consider its use as a followup, it's easy to have a few people hammer someone for 120+ damage with Gaze From Beyond and Spirit Burn, then immediately slam them with Lamentation, making it extremely difficult to infuse.

Sab · Feb 16, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

This thing is just ridiculous as a followup in Rit spike. Increase the cast time to make it possible to infuse, or have this skill completely reworked as right now, it's overpowered.

Wilhelm · Feb 16, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

600+ damage from a follow up spike, in which casts in 1/4 second is extremly overpowered. (Factoring in 6 Rits)

Patccmoi · Feb 16, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Ya, Lamentation is totally broken. And it wouldn't really be fixed just by upping the recharge or anything either.

The thing is, before it was so conditional (iirc, you had to be NEARBY a spirit or corpse) that it was close to worthless, you could only use it on like a warrior wailing on your spirits. But now with Earshot the condition is really easy to meet AND they buffed the recharge, making the skill a sad joke.

A 1s cast time is a minimum, and something else would likely be needed too (30s recharge or slightly lower damage, or maybe raising it to 15E which for Rts is very costy)

Franco Power · Feb 16, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Vital Weapon
Fertile Season
Spirit Bond
Infuse Health
ALBuffs ( for Spirit Burn and Gaze)
blah blah

Yeah, we know it is a overpowered skill, point of this thread is?

Divineshadows · Feb 16, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Power

Yeah, we know it is a overpowered skill, point of this thread is?

Proposing skill balancing solutions. Such as what Patccmoi did.

Patrick Smit · Feb 16, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

quickening zephyr anyone? spike each 10 seconds :S

Lord Mendes · Feb 16, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Lamentation is kinda crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Proposing skill balancing solutions. Such as what Patccmoi did.

Patccmoi is one of the best posters on guru imo.

Alleji · Feb 16, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

My main problem is that spike skills shouldn't ever be 1/4s cast...

Lamentation is 600 armor-ignoring damage from 6 rits that you can't interrupt and can't prot against, unless you get lucky, because by the time you see who they're facing, the target will be dead.

Just increase it to 2s and then it's gonna be like ob flame...

Thomas.knbk · Feb 16, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Patccmoi is one of the best posters on guru imo.

Word.

2 sec cast imo.

Franco Power · Feb 16, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

My main problem is that spike skills shouldn't ever be 1/4s cast...

Lamentation is 600 armor-ignoring damage from 6 rits that you can't interrupt and can't prot against, unless you get lucky, because by the time you see who they're facing, the target will be dead.

Just increase it to 2s and then it's gonna be like ob flame...

I agree with this 100%, the reason Blood spike and other spikes are so easy to beat is because a Ranger, a Mesmer or any interrupts can really ruin their spike, unlike this thing, interrupting a 1/4 cast time skill is pure luck, and well you can't rely on luck to win really...

Imo, Reducing dmg to 80 max at 16 channeling, increasing casting time to 2 would be the best solution.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 16, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

I don't think the energy cost or recharge is a relevant fix to this skill. The recharge already makes it a spike skill, since 20s is far too long to randomly punch people with. In a spike, a slightly longer recharge or higher energy cost doesn't matter that much if you're guaranteed to see the target die. You'd have to buff them to pretty ridiculous levels (45s recharge, 25e) before I would stop bringing this as a spike skill.

Hit the cast time, the damage, or preferably both.

Patccmoi · Feb 17, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I don't think the energy cost or recharge is a relevant fix to this skill. The recharge already makes it a spike skill, since 20s is far too long to randomly punch people with. In a spike, a slightly longer recharge or higher energy cost doesn't matter that much if you're guaranteed to see the target die. You'd have to buff them to pretty ridiculous levels (45s recharge, 25e) before I would stop bringing this as a spike skill.

Not a bad point, but i think it has still some relevance. Where do you see Lamentation being used the most? As part of Rt spikes. And Rt spikes have multiple roles to do on every Rt, be it casting spirits, healing others, different utility, etc. If you raise Lamentation at 15E (anything below won't really work) then it's not actually easy to use, especially if you're using other skills too (like Gaze, SBurn, etc.). Just like a Necro spike team starts being totally unable to spike when you put high pressure on them cause all their energy goes to healing, a Rt spike couldn't throw Lamentations to spike if they have to heal or do some other support at the same time, not without sacrificing something anyway (unlike Necros they don't have free energy either). A 15E cost also seriously lowers the potential of using it under QZ.

Ofc it would have to go along with cast time, there's no question about that. .25s cast time on a spike skill just shouldn't exist, even for elites. The .25s cast time was actually necessary before the balance (because you had to hit someone Nearby a corpse or spirit, and if people move at all you had to hit them right at the good time), but with Earshot range, not raising the cast time was a very bad mistake on their part.

I think that something like 1s cast time + 15E cost or 2s cast time with 10E cost would actually balance the skill.

I can't say i like the idea of nerfing the damage much because then it'll just become a very bad skill. OFlame has higher damage than it does already, and while it does cause exhaustion it also usually comes with Glyph of Energy and as only exhaustion skill in the build. Even on 80AL, Channeled Strike or Gaze would deal more damage than a 80 damage Lamentation and they're both much more spammable.

Its damage is at the level of other spike skills, not higher, and it still has a condition to meet (you can't spike with it on the run or to catch anyone anywhere, you need to put a spirit first, etc.) that spike skills from other classes don't. I mean, yes you would still bring it as a spike skill, obviously, it's DESIGNED as such. But such skills exist and it's fine that they do, you can't just eliminate all skills that have some spike potential, as long as it's not too easy or more importantly too efficient to design a full team just using that skill to spike (and .25s cast obviously does). Lamentation with 15E/1s or 10E/2s wouldn't be any stronger than OFlame, Oppressive Gaze, Dual Shot with a prep, etc.

I think i'd favor the 2s cast time more though. Armor ignoring spike are usually better when easier to interrupt, otherwise at least bad teams get rolled way too easily by that and it creates another sort of imbalance (the game must be balanced in priority for high level of play, but it shouldn't totally ignore lower level either).

And hrm, thx for the good comments!

fripple · Feb 18, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

As Patccmoi just pointed out, there are plenty of other rit skills - and skills from every other class, too - that do just as much damage and can be tossed around far more frequently without worrying about an activation condition. If I'm not in heavy armor, I'm a lot more afraid of burns, strikes and gazes than I am of lamentation.

I agree about the cast-time, though. I never understood the point of that. Increase it to 1 second and restore its old recharge time - maybe even 2 second cast, since it's armor-ignoring, but that might be too much, given the recharge and condition - and its threat level should drop significantly, but still be viable in a build. Reducing damage will just get it thrown away in favor of yet another teal lightning bolt, though, so I don't think that'll help people facing channelers.

Complaining about a 600-damage spike is a bit silly, however. 'Oh no, lethal damage!' Isn't that what spikes are supposed to do? Otherwise it isn't a spike because your target might LIVE.

Symbol · Feb 24, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Complaining about a 600-damage spike is a bit silly, however. 'Oh no, lethal damage!' Isn't that what spikes are supposed to do? Otherwise it isn't a spike because your target might LIVE.

Well it's not the damage in isolation, it's the damage combined with the fact that
a) you can't disrupt the spike in any meaningful way (casts too fast)
and
b) it's armor ignoring.

This isn't like wastrel's demise which was conditional and "merely" an amazing spike followup, lamentation is strong enough to be a spike by itself-one which is effective on anyone and is extremely hard to prevent.

Phades · Feb 24, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Meh, this skill needs to not ignore AL. I have no idea why anything in the rit lines would do this outside of beater spirits. It also needs a minimum cast time of 1s. Anything else would have to be subjective against the rest of the ritualist skill lines. Of course the closest parity then becomes spirit burn, which has a much more favorable recharge. Then again spirit burn could stand to get tuned as well, so i dont know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

This isn't like wastrel's demise which was conditional and "merely" an amazing spike followup, lamentation is strong enough to be a spike by itself-one which is effective on anyone and is extremely hard to prevent.

I dont like the way wastrel's demise is setup either. It stacks far too easily, conditional effect is too easily met, and can be repeated often. Some or all of those aspects is out of line for a mesmer skill that ends up being weilded as a basic DD skill.

TMWNN · Feb 24, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

imo reduce the dmg to max out at 80 @16 chanelling and change it to lightning dmg and this skill wouldnt be quite so bad.

Patccmoi · Feb 24, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Actually yes. If it did 80 lightning damage at 16 Channeling, it would be so bad. It would be freaking horrible.